Russia's actions in taking over Crimea, right or wrong?

[CreekDog]

which is closer to correct:

16 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Russia was wrong in taking over Crimea
	14 (88%)
	Russia was right to take over Crimea
	2 (13%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[The Magistrate]

1. The Action Was Wrong, Sir

It was nothing but a standard issue land-grab in the fine old imperial style, by the world's leading fascist.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. "by the world's leading fascist."

Just one more thing where the US is no longer #1.

[Glorfindel]

2. It was wrong. I can't imagine why they'd do such a thing.

Imagine the United States re-annexing the Philippines. I think Putin is biting off more than he can chew, but I also think it's not our problem.

[Warpy]

7. The Ukraine was always their bread basket.

I think the whole idea was to wait for some puppet to be thrown over and then try to retake it, starting with the Crimea.

There was likely a plan in the works as soon as the USSR broke apart.

What should we do about it? Not a fucking thing, I'm afraid.

[Cayenne]

3. I suppose somebody had to say yes.

Ukraine, including Crimea, was taken over by bona fide Nazis before they were liberated by Russians. The government is literally Nazi and therefore illegitimate. Further there appeared to me to be a genuine consensus in Crimea in choosing the Russians over the Nazis. The Crimean's chose this.

[The Magistrate]

11. This May Be The Most Ignorant Post I Have Seen On The Subject In the Last Several Weeks, Sir

Granted, the competition is stiff, and there have been some splendid efforts in the ignorance line from others in that time, but this one really does take the mustard. It packs more swill into fewer syllables than anyone has a right to expect: many people try and pack a gallon of crap into a quart jar, but you have actually succeeded in it.

The government in Kiev is not a government of 'bona fide Nazis', nor is that government one which is 'literally Nazi'. There is more than enough evidence in current, credible news reports of actions by the Kiev government against far right elements, including arrests, even killing of a major leader by police, to demonstrate these are far from in charge. There is, further, the non-violent way in which the government at Kiev is conducting itself, in the face of serious domestic provocation: a government 'literally Nazi' would have already been engaged in mass arrests of dissidents in the eastern portion of the country, and would have broken occupation of government buildings in several towns with violent assaults by police and military forces. Since your 'Ukraine was taken over by bona fide Nazis' claim is false on its face, your claim that Crimea was 'liberated by Russians' is nonesense of a positively Rumsfeldian caliber. The closest match to it is your claim that Crimeans 'chose Russians over Nazis': it is true that a vote was held, while Russian troops held the streets, and that the reported tally of that vote was decidedly in favor of Russia annexing Crimea, but why anyone should presume that count was honest escapes me. It may well be that a majority of persons in the Crimea desire to be under rule from Moscow and not Kiev, but the vote held hardly suffices to prove that to be so.

[eridani]

12. Still, it's a better vote than the vote they had to be annexed to the Ukraine in the first place

Oh, wait....

[The Magistrate]

17. As They Say, Ma'am, That Is Not Even Wrong....

That comment is analogous to asking whether someone playing playing checkers has got his opponent into checkmate yet; it invokes concepts that simply do not apply.

Your comment implies Ukraine annexed the Crimea; it did not. The territory was shifted from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by Mr. Khrushchev, and neither Russia nor Ukraine, let alone Crimea, was consulted. That Crimea was part of Ukraine when the Soviet Union dissolved does not reflect any acquisitive bent on the part of Ukraine's authorities. All boundaries in that part of the world, indeed just about all boundaries east of the Rhine in Europe, are the result of force majeure on somebody's part, with the only means of consultation with local inhabitants in the matter generally being whether they had the energy, wit, or wherewithal to either kill off their neighbors of different ethnicity or flee to friendly jurisdictions in the chaos of the years immediately following World War Two before they were so done by neighbors of different ethnicity. None of it was, or is, just, but any attempt to rectify it, particularly to rectify by means of military force and invasion, is deeply unsettling to a habit of peace and inviolability of borders that has built up in Europe over the last half century or so. The potential consequences of breaking this consensus that the map is frozen are devastating.

[eridani]

25. The fact remains that the Crimeans HAD NO CHOICE back then

At least now they have some kind of choice, even if not optimal.

[CreekDog]

28. Oh? What choice do they have now?

I'm just wondering.

[eridani]

33. They voted to join Russia n/t

[CreekDog]

34. with Russian troops invading?

you're opinion is real valid on this.

[eridani]

36. No vote in '54 at all n/t

[CreekDog]

38. are you defending ethnic cleansing?

Crimean Tatars (Crimean Tatar: Qırımtatarlar or Qırım, Qırımlı, Russian: Крымские татары, Ukrainian: Кримськi татари are a Turkic ethnic group native to the Crimean peninsula. They formed the majority population in Crimea from the time of their ethnogenesis in the 15th century until their 1944 deportation under Soviet rule.

(source wiki)

[eridani]

41. Just pointing out that Crimeans voted this year, but not in 1954 n/t

[CreekDog]

42. i asked a question about ethnic cleansing of the Tatars

is that okay with you or not? it's very simple.

if you won't answer because it undermines your ability to say Russia was right, then i have no respect for you.

as for me, Ukraine, Crimea weren't angels necessarily, but that doesn't mean they should be annexed.

imagine if the people of Texas seceded, with whites forming most of the votes for seceding, and nonwhites, the black and Hispanic population suddenly losing minority and class/status rights under our constitution because of that vote.

would you support that?

you haven't thought this through.

[eridani]

44. Nope. Don't approve. Nor of he Ukranian annexation of Crimea in 1954

Western countries did nothing about either. This time is different only in that voting is involved.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. The Ukrainian interim government is *literally* Nazi?

Please proceed, governor.

[Skip Intro]

5. Now, this isn't one of your trap-polls where you do research on those who vote the "wrong" way

is it?

Like people have talked about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4758521

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024744231#post67

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2165643

And even you admitted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2165837

and nevermind that my thread was about a poster who voted in my gungeon poll where nobody should have voted for the first option --and one of the few that did, had NOT A SINGLE DU POST.

so i asked.

and if someone takes wingnut position in my poll (though this poll doesn't have a wingnut position) i just might talk about it.

[CreekDog]

10. well here's an answer to each link you provided:

Last edited Wed Apr 9, 2014, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

1) what Lumberjackjeff said is completely wrong. i don't keep records or anything like that. the polls are not to catch people they are designed to show that DU is unified on key issues despite all the arguing that goes on. they are also a signal to the trolls that lurk that despite their disruptions, this remains a solidly liberal community that they have not been able to weaken or move to the right.

2) pipi k was justifying the Washington Redskin's name and logo, and the polls on the subject show that DU is almost completely in disagreement with pipi on that. my poll was fair, she thought it was unfair to ask because she said it was divisive. but quite to contrary, it showed DU wasn't divided at all, nearly all thought the Redskins name to be offensive, even Skinner voted in the poll.

3) on the last one, hosts and people on MIRT and people in Meta have said that someone here for years, without a single post, but with a right wing vote in a poll seems, well, not quite right, possibly. if you have an issue with me thinking what everyone else thinks, then take it up with everyone, don't single me out because your issue is with many here.

[nilesobek]

30. I'm afraid of voting in a poll

because someone out there is playing statistician with polling data. I had no idea polls were not anonymous.

This has a chilling effect on free speech much like the NSA spying. It smacks of bullying.

[Recursion]

37. Was the "show usernames" button insufficiently obvious?

(I don't mean that as snark; I'm genuinely perplexed so many people were surprised that you can do that...)

[nilesobek]

47. I work 2 jobs and haven't had the time to

go through the DU buttons and programs much. I'm not very computer literate as it is. Thank you for the option.

[CreekDog]

39. there's no statistical analysis

unless one is a troll, one poll vote is not going to get someone booted.

[OmahaBlueDog]

6. Other: Nie mój cyrk, nie moje malpy

Not my circus, not my monkey

[Oakenshield]

8. I'll pass.

I'm more concerned with straightening out our own destructive imperialist tendencies than playing along with the whole American global police force nonsense. Now maybe you're not pushing for intervention, but all too often that's where I see this line of questioning heading.

[moondust]

9. Well,

if Russia is allowed to annex everyplace that has a significant ethnic Russian population, lots of places may be in for some big changes: including New York and Chicago and parts of Europe.

Should the U.S. be allowed to annex parts of Mexico simply because there are a bunch of ethnic Americans living there who think they might be better off in some way if their property was legally on American soil? Of course not. If they want to be Americans again they need to move back to the U.S.

Mother Russia already has more than enough land and resources for any number of Russian expatriates who long to live in Russia again.

[MattSh]

13. Maybe you should ask if anybody understands...

what the hell is going on over there.

If they're only getting their information from major news media, the answer is a definite no.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. As opposed to someone who gets their information from Paul Craig Roberts?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4526436

[The Magistrate]

24. It is Odd, Sir

How a deeply racist Reaganite working for ultra-libertarians becomes an angel of light for people who self-identify as leftists....

[NuclearDem]

32. Sad thing is, he's not the only poster to have pushed PCR.

[AcertainLiz]

14. A Russian friend of mine claims the Crimean joining Russia was peaceful and democratic

But it honestly doesn't seem like that was the case. But I don't know how the average Crimean feels.

[reformist2]

15. Russia didn't take Crimea. Crimea willingly left Ukraine.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Russian troops were taking key sites before the parliament proclaimed independence

and long before the referendum - which took place once Ukrainian TV had been shut down, so that what the population saw was just Russian propaganda.

The Russian APCs were illegally taking control of Crimean roads on Feb 26th. The Crimean parliament didn't declare it was out of Ukraine until March 6th.

[NuclearDem]

16. Not surprised with the results so far.

[KittyWampus]

21. Crimean Tatars Were In Crimea Since 1300's. The Russian ethnics in the Crimea now

are there as a result of imperialist policy.

[Demo_Chris]

22. Right for Russia, and probably best for the Crimea. nt

[CreekDog]

23. interesting

[hrmjustin]

26. Very wrong.

[PDJane]

27. Both right and wrong, but practical for Russia.

There are resources there, and the Crimea was traditionally part of Russia.

It's a probably bad for the Ukraine; Russia wants to take back territories under the guise of protecting those of Russian descent; that's just an excuse.

[BlindTiresias]

29. Right or wrong according to what?

We had a brief period where such things could be based in the concept of rights, but after the unilateral actions of the United States regarding Iraq and arguably Afghanistan we are back to a might makes right world.

[CreekDog]

40. so you think what's right no longer matters?

just because something wrong happened?

[BlindTiresias]

45. If the primary power

That is responsible for an international framework abandons that framework then it is considered abandoned. You are thinking of things as conforming to some outside standard of right and wrong when no such metaphysical framework exists in reality. We have agreements that groups of people hold to be how we ought to conduct ourselves but the existence of these frameworks upheld by the agreements relies upon people actually following them. If the largest player and arguably the originator of the framework decides to no longer utilize the framework then nobody else bound by the agreement has an reason to uphold it and are free to resume the previous relationship schema.

[Recursion]

31. I have seen it written here that because of Russia's pension system, any Crimean who opposes this

is a capitalist tool or something like that.

[joshcryer]

35. The vote result is really good.

It shows those people supporting Putin are just loudmouths, not representative of DU...

But yeah, I've seen that, too. I remind people that Russia's pension system is on the verge of collapse...

[CreekDog]

43. yes, i was interested to see the overall result

the nice thing about polling on most of these issues is that despite the arguments, most of us agree on basic issues.

and while geopolitical issues are never black and white, annexing a nation or part of a nation is a clear enough action to be against.

[William769]

46. kick.