"Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Abortion"?

[Nye Bevan]

17 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	"Pro-Choice"
	15 (88%)
	"Pro-Abortion"
	2 (12%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[PeaceNikki]

1. Both.

I am pro-abortion, not just pro-choice

[Luminous Animal]

13. Yep. Both. And thanks for the link.

[haikugal]

17. This ^^^^^^

I'm pro choice and pro abortion as well. It's health care, all of it!

[cyberswede]

22. Me too.

I rec'd your other post with the excellent article.

[hifiguy]

71. Abso-freaking-lutely!

[Kali]

76. yep

[beam me up scottie]

94. Me five.

Why does everyone keep trying to make us choose one or the other?

[PeaceNikki]

95. And it's dumb because if you REALLY are pro-choice, you ARE pro-abortion whether you want to say it

or not.

If you are really anti-abortion you would want to restrict or outlaw it.

If you really, truly and honestly want abortion to be an easily accessible and affordable option for all, you are pro-abortion whether you are willing to say the words or not.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Reminds me of other squirmy choices people make.

You can't say you support freedom of religion without supporting freedom from religion.

You can't claim you're pro-lgbt rights without supporting same sex marriage.

And you can't be pro-women's rights without being pro-abortion.

[PeaceNikki]

100. Right. *I* wouldn't get gay married, but...

You don't see that. And we shouldn't. It's irrelevant. We support others rights to. Period, the end.

[beam me up scottie]

101. Oh I've seen it on DU plenty.

The arguments are - not surprisingly - almost identical.

There's always a judgment in there.

We support others rights to. Period, the end.

Amen sister.

[Thinkingabout]

2. Pro-choice giving the woman the choice. it should always be her final choice.

[PowerToThePeople]

4. I can think of several instances where it would be her first choice

And I would support her in that choice too.

It is not my body, it is not my choice.

[BlueCaliDem]

3. NO ONE is "pro-abortion"...least of all women.

For the life of me, I can't understand why that fact is so difficult for some to understand.

Oh, and except maybe for Buddhists, no one is pro-life, either - especially not fearmongering, gun-totin', warmongering RWers and Teabaggers.

[PeaceNikki]

5. I am. Proudly. Many of us are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026565158

[BlueCaliDem]

6. Not to come across insensitive, but

have you personally ever had an abortion?

[PeaceNikki]

8. Yes. I am not ashamed or guilty about it. Only relived I could.

[BlueCaliDem]

10. No need to feel ashamed or guilty about it at all. It was your choice to make, and

I respect you for being both pro-abortion and pro-choice because you've personally experienced it.

I'm, personally, not pro-abortion. I've never had one and had long ago decided I never would. That's why I used bc, which had been, for me, 100% effective. However, I'm pro-choice, because it's none of my or anyone else's business what other women decide to do with their own bodies. Their life. Their bodies. Their choice.

[PeaceNikki]

16. So maybe stop saying that NO ONE is pro abortion. Lots of us are.

The reasons why are detailed link above.

[BlueCaliDem]

28. NO ONE I *know* has ever said they're pro-abortion. My post is based on my personal

experience - and I'm 53 years old and lived both in The Netherlands and California. To be honest, I don't know you other than you being a DUer with a moniker. But people I know well and who have had abortions, tell me they're not pro-abortion.

I explained my initial post in my post below. Here's the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6565788

[REP]

114. Yes.

As medical procedures go, it was no big deal. I've had far worse.

[haikugal]

26. I missed that thread, Thanks!

[Nye Bevan]

7. Yeah, "pro-lifers" tend to bay for the death penalty, too (nt)

[BlueCaliDem]

14. Which really irks me. A person can't be pro-life if they're for the death penalty. Period. eom

[enlightenment]

15. I am.

I see nothing wrong with the procedure.

[BlueCaliDem]

25. You and PeaceNikki (and apparently other DUers under her OP at her link) are, as well.

But I, personally, have never met a woman in my personal life who was pro-abortion. Pro-choice? Absolutely. Pro-abortion? No.

I've met plenty women who have had many abortions (when I say "many", I mean two or three or more - one of my acquaintances confessed to me she had five since she was a little careless and already had four children).

And although they've been relieved to have had an abortion for personal reasons, they told me they didn't really like it. They saw it more as a necessary evil that they had to have performed. They said it was invasive. But, on the other hand, they could just as well tell me that so that they wouldn't be judged (and they should know I would never judge them as openly pro-choice as I am).

So my initial post was based on my experience, but clearly, I've learned something new today.

[seabeyond]

29. wouldnt, more than 1 abortion be better than many? for fact, definition alone? nt

[BlueCaliDem]

31. I don't know. Would it? eom

[seabeyond]

40. here is the thing. if you adopt snark for that simple question, it says a hell of a lot. and i am

not playing.

we are talking the lives of our girls and women. i find nothing cutsey about that.

[seabeyond]

33. our medical community is far beyond 1970 laws, and readdressing itself in that period. nt

[haikugal]

32. Women are judged..

I was called a murderer by a woman I had considered a friend. I'm sure I'm not alone.

[BlueCaliDem]

36. I'm so sorry you had to experience something like that. It must've been horrible.

The disillusion alone; to discover that a friend would say such a thing to you, is enough to break my heart.

When I opted to keep my third child at 28, all my friends called me an idiot. Why would I want to have a third child in a world that's so horrible? How dumb of me to want to bring another child into this world. For the following seven months, they refused to respect my choice. It was very disheartening. Luckily, they were happy for me when my daughter was born, and they eventually came around to respect and accept my choice.

Anyway, we really need to kill the "pro-life" term. Unless they're Buddhists, they've most likely killed a fly or mosquito in their lifetime, so they really don't have a right to claim to be "pro-life". That's just my opinion.

[haikugal]

37. Thanks, it was disappointing to say the least...

[enlightenment]

48. I've never met anyone who "liked"

having an abortion. I had one - it wasn't an enjoyable thing. That said, it didn't leave me with any regrets, nor did it leave me traumatized, scarred, or any other thing that people say. It was an unpleasant medical procedure. Many medical procedures are unpleasant. End of story.

I appreciate your willingness to learn. That is a very important quality. Perhaps you might consider why I (and PeaceNikki and others) are supporting the use of the term 'pro-abortion'. It is, simply, a clear recognition of the fact that abortion is a medical procedure. If you are 'pro-choice' then you support the medical procedure. Why shy away from that?

Colonoscopy is not a pleasant medical procedure and I've never met anyone who enjoyed them - Root canals aren't enjoyable, either. We don't get our collective knickers in a twist over any medical procedure except abortion, and we try to hide the fact that we are saying that we support abortion by using the vague phrase "pro-choice" instead.

But by using that phrase, we open ourselves up to moving from supporting abortion to not supporting it, in the turn of a phrase. When someone says "I am pro-choice, BUT . . ." what they are saying is that they are not really pro-choice (and have you noticed that there is almost always a "but" attached?).

Choice is a matter for the individual. You choose chocolate, I choose vanilla. You might criticize my choice of flavor - but would you, for one moment, believe you had a right to try and limit my choice? Of course not. In the end, it matters not at all to you what ice cream I choose to eat, because you aren't eating it.

If a woman chooses to end a pregnancy, she is choosing abortion for herself. Why should anyone believe they have a right to try and limit her right to have that medical procedure? Do we suggest 24-hour waiting periods or mandatory counseling before having a mole removed?

The right and appropriate phrase really is "pro-abortion". We have to support the procedure - not just some vague sense of choice. A woman's right to choose abortion is being limited every day in this country, largely because we have buried the medical procedure beneath so many layers or fuzzy thinking that those who oppose abortion have been able to burrow in like termites and weaken the foundation of our conviction.

I believe that there is nothing wrong with abortion. I believe that there is nothing wrong with the word "abortion". I am not afraid to use the word or to say, out loud and in print, that I support abortion.

[cyberswede]

57. Great post! nt

[beam me up scottie]

96. I had an abortion, I didn't "like" it but I'm still pro-abortion.

I know you're not saying women who get abortions are evil but the "necessary evil" is a stigma we're trying to do away with, it's a safe legal medical procedure, nothing evil about it.

I've learned something new today.

That's what I love about DU, haven't all of us evolved and changed our opinions based on reading about others' experiences?

[bettyellen]

66. I am. Most women I know are. But I don't judge them harshly or lecture Em about....

Total bullshit concepts like 100% effective birth control. It doesn't exist.

[REP]

113. I am.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. Both.

To me, the reason that a woman chooses to have an abortion is irrelevant to the her right to have one.

[Brickbat]

11. Both. I am pro-medical-procedures-that-help-people-live-better-lives, and I am pro-allowing-people-

to-make-decisions-about-those-procedures.

[enlightenment]

12. Both.

[seabeyond]

18. i do not care. there is nuance in both. just fix the damn system where our girls and woman

are not being fucked once again.

[seabeyond]

23. i WANT our girls and women to be able to call up for the damn pill anywhere from 6-at LEAST 10 weeks

i want the pill available in EVERY DAMN pharmacy across the fuckin nation. i WANT every damn doctor to be able to and to call in the damn prescription. that is what i want to start with

across the nation. not spotty state after FUCKIN spotty state.

[Novara]

61. Yes! Your rights as a woman shouldn't have the be different when you cross state lines

The same access to women's healthcare needs to be nationwide. Women's rights need to be the same in every goddamn state. I have so HAD IT with red states shaming women and limiting their healthcare and their autonomy.

[seabeyond]

63. ya!! nt

[Rex]

46. I would think a pro-gressive would be both, because wouldn't one be a hypocrite

not to be both? IE, pro-choice means you are pro-abortion and pro-abortion means you are pro-choice?

[seabeyond]

49. people have their reasons. i do not care. i will take that. an argument is going around.

(thank you for putting this out). i see other arguments in this simple question. it is not so simple. takes on arms.

i do not care.

that is my argument.

dont care

we have our priorites. the loss of right and life, with state laws, dictating our girls by shame, guilt, humiliation. and inability to get legal medical procedures.

that is what i am addressing. let me be really bluntly clear on my position.

i am not walking into that argument, to divide feminists. i vowed i would NEVER play that game again.

[Rex]

51. Oh well, I don't care either...but since we are discussing it on DU

I am a 'live and let live' kind of person. I just feel this is a no-brainer. You know what I mean.

[seabeyond]

55. sure....

[Zorra]

19. Both. Women should have complete and unrestricted choices

about what they do with their own bodies.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. You don't have a both option for this poll. That's disingenuous and apparent

to anyone who has read the first page of DU GD today.

[PeaceNikki]

21. It's also missing "Neither". Sadly there are anti-choicers here, too.

[seabeyond]

24. classic, to start battle between feminist. fuck NO! nt

[MuseRider]

27. Both.

I am pro abortion if a woman decides that is what she needs. I am pro choice that we all be able to decide what we need and act on it.

This is a terrible poll. To me pro choice means that I am pro choice and that means to me pro life and pro abortion but unless it is my own body it is none of my business.

[roody]

30. both

[Shrike47]

34. Pro-choice, for any kind of medical issue. You should be able to choose your treatment.

I had toxemia (pre-eclampsia) with both my sons and I was sick as a dog. My old, anti-abortion, right wing doctor counseled me to consider abortion with the second pregnancy. I could see it pained him to say it. He wouldn't himself do it but he would make a referral if I asked.

I CHOSE to have that child, and I am so glad. But it was MY choice and my life I risked. I would never force another woman go through what I went through.

[graegoyle]

35. One of the many reasons that I am pro-abortion is...

There are too many people on this planet.

[PeteSelman]

38. I'm pro-abortion.

I'm pro-death all around. Abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide.

I believe in consistency.

[Cal Carpenter]

43. People don't usually die during an abortion

Well, except when safe, medical abortions are made inaccessible and women have to resort to desperate measures ('back-alley abortions' and such) and things go wrong.

I don't get what you mean by equating pro-abortion with "pro-death".

[seabeyond]

45. you know what i learned a month ago, cal? the net is now putting a cocktail together that they can

get from doctors and pharmaceuticals, that will do the same as the abortion pill. women across the nation is networking the information we need to self prescribe to take care of an early preg, least invasive.

because states are taking away our right to the pill.

[PeteSelman]

47. Unlike some pro-abortion people.

I recognize that you are killing something alive during the process. I have kids, I've seen the heart beating on the ultrasound in the early stages of development. It is what it is.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. Agreed

There's a difference between something having life and something being viable.

In the end, I don't care. It's the same as whether being gay or bi is a choice....who cares if it is? No one else's business.

[Kali]

78. there it is

not really very clever

[PeteSelman]

81. There what is?

The truth?

I've never understood why anyone would deny the facts. Own it. I have no problem doing so.

[Cal Carpenter]

82. So if you believe in consistency,

I suppose you think women who get abortions are murderers who should be jailed? Put to death even, ya know, for consistency?

[PeteSelman]

84. Well that's just stupid.

Of course I don't consider them murderers. Choosing to terminate your pregnancy, while killing the fetus, is not the same as murdering someone.

Come on now, don't put words in my mouth.

[Cal Carpenter]

85. I didn't put the words in your mouth, you did

You are the one who equated abortion with state-sanctioned murder, for example.

I'm taking your argument to its logical conclusion. For consistency.

One thing we agree on is that it's just stupid, though.

[PeteSelman]

88. Killing is killing.

And murder is murder.

Neither the Death Penalty nor abortion are murder but both are killing.

[seabeyond]

89. so, for you, it is right along the lines of killing a bacteria or virus? nt

[PeteSelman]

116. Perhaps not quite that impersonal.

A bacteria or a virus will never be sentient no matter how long you let it grow.

[PowerToThePeople]

93. That is fucked

Death Penalty IS state sponsored murder. Historically, many non-guilty people have been murdered by the state.

PeteSelman (1,131 posts)
88. Killing is killing.

And murder is murder.

Neither the Death Penalty nor abortion are murder but both are killing.

[PeteSelman]

115. That may be so in the case of innocents.

But, administered properly, it is not murder but justice.

The living thing killed in the abortion process is no less innocent, is it not? But that doesn't seem to matter. It doesn't to me and it doesn't to you. We don't call it murder.

[PowerToThePeople]

117. I disagree, greatly disagree.

Your posts come across as right wing talk to me. Death penalty is Justice? For whom, may I ask? Vengeance is more like it.

[beam me up scottie]

121. I agree with you.

I think that one should be given a wide berth.

Sometimes it's just not worth it.

[PeteSelman]

122. Justice for society.

Justice for the victims and their families.

Sorry, I'm have no compassion for base murderers, rapists or pedophiles. The worst of the worst.

If that's right wing it's one of the few things they have right.

[PowerToThePeople]

123. I should alert you for being right winger

PeteSelman (1,134 posts)
122. Justice for society.

Justice for the victims and their families.

Sorry, I'm have no compassion for base murderers, rapists or pedophiles. The worst of the worst.

If that's right wing it's one of the few things they have right.

But I think you will get your "justice" soon enough.

PeteSelman (1,136 posts)
124. And I should alert you for accusing me of bullshit.

But I'm not going to because the rat button is for cowards.

I'm as liberal as anyone here on nearly every issue.

I side with conservatives on capital punishment and immigration.

[PeteSelman]

124. And I should alert you for accusing me of bullshit.

But I'm not going to because the rat button is for cowards.

I'm as liberal as anyone here on nearly every issue.

I side with conservatives on capital punishment and immigration.

[beam me up scottie]

128. Some right wing views are allowed here, those aren't a deal breaker

But they are a good indicator of other things.

Not worth getting your posts hidden, seriously. When you see other posters letting those comments go it's usually for a good reason.

The one sticking up for Pete is just doing so because you irritated them.

[PowerToThePeople]

129. I push it sometimes

but I watch my hide count and lay off when I need to.

I agree though, many right wing ideas are common here. Reaganomics and gun nuttery are are safe views here currently. Not sure death penalty and immigration are that secure though. Just have to see how the cookie crumbles.

[beam me up scottie]

132. Not sure about immigration either.

Depends how it's framed.

Some people know just how to phrase things. And the juries let a lot of stuff slide - like when it comes to punishment of prisoners.

Nothing wrong with pushing it, it worked out well on the root canal thread. Sometimes they'll show their true colours.

If they don't belong here they'll out themselves eventually.

[pnwmom]

126. He just said it wasn't murder. Why are you disagreeing with that? Abortion isn't murder. n/t

[PowerToThePeople]

127. This subthread went Off-topic

talking about death penalty and eventually immigration and how Pete agrees with Republicans on those issues.

[pnwmom]

125. No, the poster didn't equate abortion with state-sanctioned murder.

He said that "something" was killed -- not that a human being was killed. An embryo or fetus is killed in the course of an abortion. Many people are uncomfortable even killing spiders. They are also uncomfortable killing fetuses, while recognizing that doing so does NOT constitute murder.

[JaneyVee]

39. Pro-choice. Pro-abortion is creepy.

Pro-abortion suggests that you want all pregnancies terminated. Pro-choice suggests what others do with their bodies isn't your business.

[PowerToThePeople]

41. I am pro-coffee

Everyone must drink my drink of choice!!



Edit - imo, only someone working from an authoritarian mindset would come to the conclusion that someone "pro-whatever" wishes to force that something on everyone and only an authoritarian would wish to force their choice upon everyone else (cough, cough, inevitable Hillary.)

[JaneyVee]

50. Tell it to the authoritarians who call themselves "prolife".

They sure want to force something on others. Im prochoice, I want to force choice on others.

[PowerToThePeople]

52. I do not see pro-choice as forcing choice.

Choice is the default until it is taken away. If choice is forced, nature has foisted choice upon us, not ourselves.

[JaneyVee]

58. According to your own logic...

You want to then take away choice and advocate for only one scenario. I am 100% pro-choice. The rest is silly semantics.

[PowerToThePeople]

62. Here is a way to look at it

I am pro-truck. (not really)
I also am pro-choice of transport, truck, car, bike, foot, etc.

Now, I cannot only be pro-choice, because there are many forces working to remove trucks from the list of choices. I must fight for the right to drive a truck as well as the right for people to choose their preferred method of transport.

[seabeyond]

64. we are talking about womens rights, lives. they are not things. you do not even get your offense

[PowerToThePeople]

65. The structure of the logical argument is what matters, not what is contained within. n/t

[seabeyond]

67. you're being illogical in your discussion of logic. how logical is it to define a person as a thing

[PowerToThePeople]

68. A person is a thing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thing

thing
noun \ˈthiŋ\

: an object whose name is not known or stated
: an object, animal, quality, etc., of any kind
: a particular event, occurrence, or situation

edit - and my post did not relate a person to a truck anyway. It related forms of birth control to forms of transportation.

[seabeyond]

53. this poster is all about disruption. stepping to obvious. nt

[PowerToThePeople]

109. I will always try to disrupt people trying to

I will always try to disrupt people trying to put forth ideas I believe are detrimental to the bettering of the human condition.

Possibly you think "this poster is all about disruption" because you fall on the opposite side of the argument than I do more often than not. I can assure you that there are plenty of DU members that do not see me as a disruptor.

[beam me up scottie]

103. "Pro-abortion suggests that you want all pregnancies terminated."

Bullshit.

I am pro-vasectomy, does that mean I want all men to get sterilized?

Every sperm is sacred...

[Hepburn]

42. Both...n/t

[Rex]

44. Pro-gressive.

Means I am pro both.

[Novara]

54. Both. You forgot that category.

[LittleBlue]

59. I'm pro-choice

I don't particularly "like" abortion so I'm not pro abortion. That loaded term sounds like people who want more abortions to occur.

I like choice, though, so I'm pro-choice

[fredamae]

60. This is a very personal

decision that is only the mother's to make. If her decision is to make it alone or with her partner and clergy is up to her and none of my business. My body? My choice. Period.

While I Choose (whole point of choice, right?) to not go that route, if I had a friend or family member who is facing that choice? I don't judge. I'm there for her for anything she needs. Period.

[Arugula Latte]

72. "Clergy" makes me cringe.

Yeah, ask some man (probably a man) who represents a primitive patriarchal religion with a long history of treating women like less-than-shit (assuming it's Christianity, Judaism, I'm assuming not Islam) what she should do with her body. Ugh.

And, yes, of course a woman has the right to bring in the peddlers of the supernatural. I'm just saying it makes me sick that this is even a thing.

[fredamae]

79. Yes, It would not be my

choice of "consultants" either, but I must respect those who would make that choice. No judgment. We're all different...I'm "in training" to not let differences regulate how I consider "good hearted souls".
I've learned so much from posters here/there/everywhere and that is a good thing.

[Kali]

80. yep

and note "mother" instead of woman.

[zazen]

69. "Pro-Access" (choice plus resources plus law plus support--but anti-abortion) n/t

[Arugula Latte]

70. Another vote for "both."

Abortion is a great option in A LOT of instances.

[Liberal_in_LA]

73. both

[krawhitham]

74. I'm PRO it's none of my damn business what another does with their body

[Nye Bevan]

75. Sounds like "pro-choice" to me (nt)

[hrmjustin]

77. I am pro choice.

I believe it should be legal and safe.

[elleng]

83. Silly question, imo.

Who is actually pro-abortion? as in, it's such a good thing? It isn't, but the right to have one, when needed, is protected by the constitution, as it should be. Our CHOICES are most important.

[Nye Bevan]

87. I agree with your comments, and based upon the poll results, so do most DUers (nt)

[seabeyond]

90. and here you are creating the divide.

[cyberswede]

97. Check out this thread

...and consider if it really is a silly question.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026565158

Abortion isn't a bad thing, and it shouldn't be stigmatized as such.

[NYC Liberal]

86. Both.

[riderinthestorm]

91. Both. There is a difference. It's nuanced but real nt

[Agschmid]

92. Pro-Abortion-Choice

[Vinca]

99. Pro-choice. It's nobody's business whether I'm pro or anti-abortion.

Just like it's nobody's business to know if I have had an abortion.

[beam me up scottie]

102. I am pro-choice but anti-vasectomy.

Makes about as much sense as saying one is pro-choice but anti-abortion.

[elehhhhna]

104. pro-privacy

[bigwillq]

105. I'm pro-choice

be it abortion, gay marriage, doing drugs or not doing drugs, gambling, shopping on-line, riding a ferris wheel, whatever it may be.

[ibegurpard]

106. How I feel about abortion is completely irrelevant

Unless I am personally involved in a situation where it is a possibility...and even then the decision is not mine to make.

[DrDan]

107. always seemed to me that the issue is one of choice

that legislators should not restrict a woman's choice

[ileus]

108. I'm going to go with pro abortion and here's why....

If used properly it can be a form of population control. Population control = carbon footprint reduction. Carbon footprint reduction is a good thing....

[bobjacksonk2832]

110. Just because someone is pro-choice does NOT mean he/she is pro-abortion.

Why can't these right wing numbskulls get that through their heads? It's like talking to a brick wall when it comes to discussing this issue with them. So infuriating.

[PowerToThePeople]

111. enjoy your stay

nice try though.

[dembotoz]

112. prochoice is a flicked with too many yes buts

[kydo]

118. This always reminds me of a Rush song - Freewill

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Even choosing to be Pro-Life is really Pro-Choice, that person made a choice and that's what I support, the right to choose.

[Reter]

119. You should have put an option for anti-abortion in there

If some of our Democratic Congressmen and Senators are pro-life, some are on DU too.

[Tracyjo]

120. Both

And pro-life too.

[LostOne4Ever]

130. Both (nt)

[Jamastiene]

131. Both.

Your poll options are very incomplete.