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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo you put your hand over your heart during the National Anthem?
Am I the only one who stopped? Back when Bush obviously was lying about Iraq?
Last week made me think I was almost back to where I could.
May be no big deal to anyone?
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NRaleighLiberal
(60,592 posts)Just not a particularly demonstrative, patriotic type here.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)
nruthie
(466 posts)Cassidy1
(300 posts)Quick story: I was at baseball game a few weeks ago. The seventh inning stretch came up. I was expecting Take Me Out to the Ballgame, but they started with God Bless America. I did not stand.
I don't make a point of this, but the nonsense military hero worship, "fighting for our freedom," etc. at games and everywhere is over the top. This silly "patriotism" is nonsense. "God" doesn't just bless America, but military interventionists and others need like to think otherwise. It extends to demonizing other countries to justify our lazy interruptions to get resources and make ourselves even fatter.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)before that dolt.
Warpy
(113,131 posts)I'm old. Standing up is enough of an effort. Mawkish sentimentality harkening back to what they made us do in grammar school is not my style.
It has had its funny moments, remember Stupid with his hand on his gut, surrounded by his inner circle with their hands on their hearts?
immoderate
(20,885 posts)Maybe if you are pledging something, your hand goes somewhere. But don't expect longevity. Same thing, every day.
Now when you give a ring, that pledge lasts much longer. 
(The hand over heart thing for the 'Banner is a Reagan illliteracy. There is no rule.)
--imm
GoneOffShore
(17,655 posts)Never started up again.
Won't say the Pledge.
Won't sing the National Anthem and only reluctantly stand.
And definitely will NOT sing "Gob Bless America".
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Stopped participating in the ritual in high school over Vietnam Nam...still refuse.
Laffy Kat
(16,537 posts)After years and years I can stand now, but I still cannot put my hand over my heart. I doubt I ever will.
MuseRider
(34,420 posts)I started standing again sometime in the early to mid 90's, I had kids and felt the mixed message would be better explained when they were older. It is a reluctant stand and a slouchy type of stand and I refuse to sing. I was taught the hand over the heart for the pledge not the National Anthem. What kills me is I have been to 3 outdoor musicals this summer and before each they had the Anthem. Before a concert or musical? Jebus they are getting annoying with this nationalism crap.
Laffy Kat
(16,537 posts)Now, during the 7th Inning Stretch they have an "America the Beautiful" sing-a-long. Enough, already.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)I don't know why some Democrats might think that singing the national anthem, saying the Pledge of Allegiance, flag lapel pins, flying the flag, etc. are undemocratic things to do.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)For me, it would simply be hypocritical to do so.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)
Ms. Toad
(35,693 posts)It has to do with glorification of war and valuing one country/group of people above all others, whatever the cost..
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)Key wrote the lyrics because of what he saw as the U.S. was fighting off an attack.
Would you prefer it if the Revolutionary War was never to have happened? Key would not have written his lyrics without it.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)The Anthem glorifies war. I don't believe any war should be held in that esteem. Of course, Key would not have written the lyrics without the War of 1812, (not the Revolutionary War) but this country didn't have to adopt it as the official anthem some 75 years later.
As far as the Pledge goes, I don't think that this country has ever been about "liberty and justice for all".
And, as far as the "under God" part goes, some people don't believe in God. There are many others who will pledge allegiance only to their God, and not to a flag. These people need to feel included too.
That's why.
I don't think less of people who may feel differently about this, as I would hope others don't think less of me. I try to respect all opinions, even those I disagree with.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)You don't like war, I get it. Does that mean you wish the Revolutionary War never happened?
Re-read my post. I did not write that Key wrote the lyrics about a Revolutionary War battle. I said without it (the Revolutionary War) he would not have written the lyrics.
Human101948
(3,457 posts)In 1953, Louis Rabaut, a democrat from Michigan sponsored a resolution to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. It failed. But by then, the decision was up to President Dwight D. Eisenhower. Recently baptized as a Presbyterian, he heard a sermon, arguing the words "under God" from Lincoln's speech set the United States apart from others as a nation. At the time, the Cold War was gaining steam, and Eisenhower was fighting communism across the globe.
The next day, the president encouraged Charles Oakman, a republican also from Michigan, to re-introduce the bill, which Congress passed. Eisenhower signed it into law on June 14, 1954. A story announcing the news in the Washington Post quoted him as saying the new version would add "spiritual weapons which will forever be our country's most powerful resource."
....Two years later, on Flag Day again, Eisenhower also made "In God We Trust" our nation's official motto. The man must have loved his new religion.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/under-god-added-to-pledge-of-allegiance-2014-6#ixzz3edNOGchG
Stargazer99
(3,033 posts)Every since the state of Washington let my working daughter die from a perfectly correctable condition that if we had money would have been taken care of. Her life was worth only $3 to this government. I do not pledge alligence, or sing the anthem. I see too much evil accepted in this country
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)I'll certainly be more patriotic (whatever that means) when and if this country truly gets it's shit together.
Again, sorry for your loss and especially the reason why.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)
Ms. Toad
(35,693 posts)Yes, as a pacifist, and a conscientious objector to war, I wish the Revolutionary War - and all other wars had never happened. That is precisely my point. That any conflict was solved using weapons is something to mourn, not celebrate and glorify.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts) Cassidy1
(300 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 1, 2015, 10:11 PM - Edit history (1)
"Key wrote the lyrics because of what he saw as the U.S. was fighting off an attack.
Would you prefer it if the Revolutionary War was never to have happened? Key would not have written his lyrics without it."
It was not the revolution Key was writing about. It was the War of 1812.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)I never said Key wrote the lyrics about a Revolutionary War battle. I wrote that he would. Ever have written those lyrics without it (meaning the Revolutionary War). What happened to reading comprehension on DU?
Cassidy1
(300 posts)I never said you claimed that, but you strongly implied it. Nice try with the trolling, though. Third one I've seen on this thread. lol
Perhaps you also still need to do your own reading.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)we (as in the 13 colonies) would have been under British rule in 1812. There would have been no battle for Key to have witnessed and even more so, no country for him to have written about. Sheeesh....
2banon
(7,321 posts)which I do not support. the anthem and the pledge, hell the so called celebration of Independence bears absolutely no resemblance with regard to the cause, spirit, and intention of the founders.
Don't even get me started on the consumerism aspect which is all it is now.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)Independence Day by going to the park for the City Band Concert. Patriotic songs and marches were played. When I was in high svhool I played in that band for a couple of years. In the afternoon we were boating and swimming in the lake next to the park. Tomorrow morning we are driving to our cabin in northern Minnesota with my dad. We're meeting my brother and his family there. We just got back from grocery shopping. The stores were packed. A great day for America. That remids me, I have to see if I can find the bottle rockets we bought last year.
2banon
(7,321 posts)How romantic.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)well, actually, I do. With that many people there won't be an romance, but time spent with family is a good thing. My 80+ year old father loves it.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Other countries also have national anthems you know.
I've never seen anything more stirring than when the Irish start singing their anthem lol. And they do so spontaneously in pubs at any given time. I've spend a lot of time there, and it always impresses me.
Are they glorifying war? Valuing one country/people above others?
No, they just love their country. Odd how many here think that there is something wrong with that.
CTyankee
(65,375 posts)way south from Macon. It was rather large as I recall. Alluva sudden the U.S. national anthem blared from the speakers in the hall. Surprised, we all scrambled to stand up and some of us sang. Then the Marseillaise was played and we remained standing and sang (the parts we could remember) that one, too. It was a nice moment in our mutual respect for each other...
closeupready
(29,503 posts)they used to do air raid drills once per month in Paris. As a student, it was all fun, games, wine, and amour, and then when the air raid commenced, it sobered me up.
Europe and France present a fun side to many tourists, but it's important to remember that it wasn't so long ago they nearly lost it all (and millions of Europeans DID) to their own squabbling. They can be proud of their food and fashion and lazy way of life, but there'll always be a darker side, as everywhere else.
Not to be sour, just commiserating, lol. Hope you enjoyed your time there.
Ms. Toad
(35,693 posts)It isn't a song about loving your country, it is about being victorious in a war.
America the Beautiful, or This Land is Your Land are songs which demonstrate love for your country without being tied to being victorious in battle (and, inherently, defeating others).
ncjustice80
(948 posts)The flag stands for human rights violations, robber baron capitalism, and imperialism. I won't stand for it, I won't sing it. I wish they would stop playing it at public events.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)So what country do you think has a more respectable flag?
Response to TeddyR (Reply #71)
Post removed
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)is not a strict endorsement of all actions and policies of the U.S. government past, present, and future.
Cassidy1
(300 posts)your heart or standing does not show "disrespect" either.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)Cassidy1
(300 posts)Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)to find them now singing "God Bless America" during the 7th Inning Stretch.
OK, thanks for asking. I feel better.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Since the September 11 attacks, many American ballparks complement or replace the song with the playing of "God Bless America".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-inning_stretch
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Some kind of 9 11blackout flashback amnesia .of some sort. Of course it was tmottbg
alarimer
(16,667 posts)I'm going to an Orioles game tomorrow. My game plan is to not be in my seat for that part of it.
At Nationals stadium, they won't even let you leave your seat unless it's between innings. So most of the time, I stood and wandered around. Of course that was a boring game, with the Nats ahead by like 9 runs early on.
You can't leave your seat until the half inning ends?
alarimer
(16,667 posts)Which generally means between halves of innings.
http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/was/ballpark/information/index.jsp?content=guide
I don't know if this is common at Major League games. I've only been to minor league games in recent years, where nobody seems to care. It may be policy generally at all stadiums, but it's actually enforced at Nationals games. Staff actually block the aisles.
It was the most unpleasant experience I've ever had at a major league game. In addition, Nats stadium really sucks. It is very tall (to accommodate the luxury boxes) and the cheap seats are very far away and up huge flights of stairs (although there is an elevator that is incredibly hard to find). I will never go see a game there again.
I hope tonight's experience at Camden Yards is better, but I'm not optimistic.
Skittles
(160,529 posts)
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)judging...just curious.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Do not change my love for this country nor impact my respect for the flag or the people who have served this country. I certainly stand for the national anthem and place my hand over my heart when it is played.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)it's not unpatriotic to be proud of being an American.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I wont let those two losers change my love for this country that has been very good to me and my entire family who escaped the pogroms in Russia. My grandmother cried at the sight of the Statue of Liberty (the first thing of our country she saw) until the day she died.
Peregrine
(992 posts)Not out of protest. I was an Army brat, and learned to stand at attention, hands down at your side.
Mister Ed
(6,403 posts)Stand at attention, hands at your side, for the national anthem. Hand over your heart for the Pledge of Allegiance.
I've been surprised to learn those aren't the traditions everywhere.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)immoderate
(20,885 posts)
--imm
DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)For the men, remove their hats during the anthem as well (unless in uniform)
petronius
(26,669 posts)silly at events that are not civic in nature, I view it as empty and non-bothersome tradition (like the motto on currency)...
Cassidy1
(300 posts)to promote the yay troops. It's not spontaneous at all. It's very choreographed.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)and it was reflected in the way we behaved and "proved" we were Americans.
Even Obama was sucked in to the manufactured patriotism post 9/11 with the flag lapel pin flap
Skittles
(160,529 posts)I have have always done that
11 Bravo
(24,076 posts)We now have the option of coming to attention and saluting (if covered, even if it's a baseball hat); or removing a hat, if one is worn, and simply coming to attention. I prefer option two.
Skittles
(160,529 posts)yes indeed
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Regardless of the poltics and policies of the moment. 
Skittles
(160,529 posts)yes INDEED
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)
ms liberty
(9,893 posts)I also substitute "under the Constitution" for "under God" when saying the Pledge. I'm kind of over loalty oaths and flag waving; it's been hijacked by Dumbfuckistan, which is more a state of mind than an actual state or region.
NV Whino
(20,886 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)NV Whino
(20,886 posts)And when I became an adult, it just seemed silly.
OffWithTheirHeads
(10,337 posts)in Arizona. Both are considered Tucson Democratic clubs. I was elected about two years ago. At the time, the club had collected money to buy an American flag and an eagle finale for the club. They said the "Pledge" at every meeting. It's part of the club culture.
I went to predomintaly black high school in San Francisco during the civil rights movement and was told that "Under God" and"Liberty and justice for all" was bullshit. It Is! My attempts to not include the pledge in our meetings however have met fierce resistance.
Frankly, I don't get it but it is part of the clubs culture and I have been called out on it when it was not included. Before I was President, I would show up late to avoid this. I don't go to ball games or hockey games not just because I think that those guys get too much money for playing with their balls but because I just don"t do the "Pledge" or the "banner". Suggestions?
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)You must be in a difficult a position if you feel that your country does not deserve your respect even as you are deeply involved in trying to choose its leaders.
This country did not start out perfect, far from it. For instance the evil of slavery was written into our original constitution. However, ours was the first representative democracy in modern times, and more importantly, our constitution provides a blue print for ever improving our imperfect country. Have we, the American people, always always moved in the direction of that ideal? No, sometimes it was one step forward and two steps back. However, slowly but surely we are still moving towards making this country a "perfect union". No one should be satisfied, but neither can anyone can deny our progress.
Perhaps when when you have again an opportunity to say the pledge of the allegiance or stand for the nation anthem, you can do so, not to pay homage to country which formed over 200 years ago, or to the country you lived in as as teenager, or even to the one in which you now live. Instead perhaps you can do so with a clear conscious to respect the ideal which you and so many others are working so hard to achieve. Customs themselves have no meaning in and of themselves; they are what we as individuals make of them, and we can make them what we wish.
City Lights
(25,455 posts)I always just did that for the Pledge.
Alkene
(752 posts)I'm not keen (pun intended) on patriotic ceremonies or loyalty oaths.
When my parents were kids, while reciting the pledge of allegiance, they used to gesture with an outstretched hand towards the flag. It was called the Bellamy salute, or flag salute.
They dropped that for what should be obvious reasons.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)I haven't since grade school, when they basically made us. Edit: (or was that the pledge? LOL)
I cover sports, mainly high school, so I hear the anthem all the time. I like it, but I don't feel the need to put my hand over my heart.
I usually put my hands behind my back.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Gives me the creeps. It's too 1984ish.
I really hate patriotism. It lets people turn off their brains and feel superior for no reason.
"...Wow, your parents procreated and you happened to be born in X place instead of Y or Z place. So impressive! You are very special!"
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Like the demand of "SPEAK ENGLISH OR LEAVE THE COUNTRY". People DO get that the fact we speak English at all is a complete accident of history, right?
shenmue
(38,538 posts)
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)In school we had to do that for the flag salute, but not the national anthem.
pscot
(21,043 posts)
GP6971
(33,537 posts)I don't sign the anthem and don't say the pledge. PLUS, I absolutely refuse to sing America the Beautiful....the Yankees piss me off (even though I'm a huge fan) when they used to say "join Kate Smith in singing America the Beautiful". I don't want to join Kate Smith....she's dead.
elleng
(137,065 posts)Hand/heart for the Pledge. but I don't judge others.
Response to elleng (Reply #33)
Name removed Message auto-removed
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)That and the constant war on drugs, terror, and the demonization of Arabs, black people, gays, women, and atheists.
Did I forget anyone or anything?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Most countries have anthems. Do you rag on the Canadians when they do their anthem at hockey games? If you think the USA is a fascist country (while you get to say whatever the fuck you want want here on the internet), you need a serious history lesson.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)The practice by some of draping giant flags on cars, trucks, houses, places of business. Politicians who must wear a flag pin whenever they appear in public, while asking God to smile down upon them as they bomb civilians, make endless war, and cut aid to the poor to finance tax cuts for the rich.
It was not this way 30 years ago. Why do you think it has changed?
As a reference source:
http://iweb.tntech.edu/kosburn/history-202/12_warning_signs_of_fascism.htm
grasswire
(50,130 posts)But the only place this happens for me is at MLS soccer games, where the fans do weird stuff during the singing of the national anthem. Ritualistic swirling of their scarves, cheering at "our flag was still there"....and so on. I object to those activities.
I must admit that I tear up when we get to "land of the free...." especially since Edward Snowden blew the lid off.
kelly1mm
(5,434 posts)craigmatic
(4,510 posts)I've never been a flag waver myself and it seems like the only time it seems really to matter to the average person is when there's a war.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)war. We've been meddling with and bombing the crap out of one country or another since then so I never saw a reason to start standing again.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)I am. Or aren't stuck in a red state
840high
(17,196 posts)dem in texas
(2,681 posts)No one was more opposed to the Vietnam war and the invasion of Iraq that me. I had letters published in the Dallas Morning News protesting the Iraq war and what a big mistake it was. But I take a longer view of what has happened in the United States. Remember the simple farmers who fought in the Revolution to gain our freedom from England. Remember the men from both the North and South who fought in the Civil war. One of the most touching things I ever saw was the civil war cemetery in Dover, Tennessee. Just watch the documentaries about the landing on Omaha beach, such a great loss of life, it brings tears to my eyes. I feel nothing but admiration for the men who fought there My uncle was in the terrible Battle of the Bulge and would never talk about it. What bravery they showed, just plain everyday men who left their homes to fight for their country. When you think about the lives lost defending our country, how can you not place your hand over your heart to honor these brave souls?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)who fought at all. I think more about what the leaders of our country have done to create war. That is what I am ashamed of.
olddots
(10,237 posts)the song gives me heart burn because the melody is all over the place .
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)Always have, always will.
Ms. Toad
(35,693 posts)I don't make a big fuss about it - and generally try to be out of whatever venue is is being sung in. It is a song which gorifies war, which violates my religious beliefs.
If there is no easy escape, I stand politely and try drown the words out with something else.
I don't say the pledge of allegiance either, for similar reasons. I don't make promises I am not willing/able to keep. I have no particular allegiance to the United States, over any other country, and certainly not to the flag. But again, if there is no escape (and I haven't planned to show up fashionably late, I stand politely and recite something else to distract my mind.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 1, 2015, 12:23 PM - Edit history (1)
And after that, I have to focus on not laughing out loud.
RIP, Mr. Nielsen...what a gift you were.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Are we liberals not Patriotic? You quit holding your hand over your heart because Bush was lying? What in the heck does one thing have to do with the other. Presidents come and go and have for 225 years. We obviously will not agree with every President's politics, and yes some of them have lied. Some were also guilty of even more serious offenses like wasting the lives of our people in needless wars, but they are not the country. They are just temporarily in charge.
Yes, Republicans like to wrap themselves in the American flag, but it doesn't belong to them, it belongs to all of us. They seem to think they are the only ones that are patriotic; we should prove them wrong. Ours was the first modern democracy and no country puts more emphasis on individual liberties. One of the cornerstones of the Progressive movement is the fight for individual rights for all citizens as contrasted to the group think of conservatives. As liberals and democrats we have every right to be proud of our country and the flag which is its symbol so why don't we act like it.
I for one am proud to be an American and I served in its military. When I was a Boys Scout I learn proper flag etiquette and care. Both organizations taught me lessons I will never forget. When I hear the national anthem I sometimes think about our founding fathers who put their very lives on the line to build a country where the people could rule themselves, where they could be free from oppression. When hear the national anthem I always think of the men and women who died so can be free today. Yes, some of them died in wars with which we did not agree or considered unjust, but they gave their lives for us never the less. For that sacrifice they should be remembered and honored.
I would hope that all Americans would stand straight and tall with right hand over the heart, as is proper, when the anthem is played because we are all Americans, and we should be rightfully proud of our heritage and who we are today. If for some reason we are not satisfied with our country we should honor it never the less because it gives us the opportunity correct whatever plagues us if we but work hard enough. That's the American way.
Have a great 4th of July.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)And I think the vast majority of Democrats would agree with what you wrote.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)We lived abroad for 10 years in the ME, Africa and Europe. I formed a greater appreciation for the U.S. during those times. Do I think we are #1 (USA USA and all that) - no. Every country has its good and its bad. But I am proud of being an American (and fully understand and recognize pride held by others for their countries.)
I think a lot feel they are "cool" to bypass any form of patriotism - like a "look at how liberal I am" kind of thing.
I can understand not wanting to pledge allegiance to a flag - a piece of cloth, (even though it has become a somewhat superficial explanation to me these days.)
Yeah - I stand, take off my hat if wearing one, place my hand over my heart, remain solemn for a few moments.
Ashamed of some of our leaders - but not our Country.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)A lot of us feel this way
ProfessorGAC
(70,850 posts)Bush had nothing to do with it. It's just silly and futile symbolism, and if you think that makes me less a patriot, then that's on you, not me.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Actually it is neither silly nor futile and the manner in which proper respect should be shown to the flag is actually encoded into US law.
I refer you to the document The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions prepared for Congress by the Congressional Research Committee. From the opening paragraph of the document, "This report presents, verbatim, the United States “Flag Code” as found in Title 4 of the United States Code and the section of Title 36...."
Here is the link: http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf
The following is the section in question:
(b) Conduct During Playing. — During a rendition of the national anthem —
(1) when the flag is displayed —
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note.
(2) When the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
Now no one is going to prosecute you if you don't follow the law. That would be unlikely in any event, but I would think that the Supreme Court judgement in Texas v. Johnson, (1989), in which the court ruled that burning the American flag is considered free speech under the Constitution set a precedent in such matters.
You say that putting your hand over your heart during the national anthem is "silly and futile symbolism", but wouldn't you put standing up during the national anthem in the same category? After all we stand during the national anthem for the same reason we put our hands over our hearts, to show respect. I just made a private bet with myself that most people like you stand just like everyone else because they don't want to call attention to themselves by being the only ones who remained sitting. But they figure they can get away with their little private protest of doing nothing with their hands without calling attention to themselves because they think no one will think that particularly odd.
I didn't write that to put you or anyone else down, but only to point out that we human beings are social animals who naturally form into groups both big and small from simple families of our own choosing, to neighborhoods, towns and city, states and sovereign nations. In a larger it sense it is clear that we all also belong to a larger world wide community. That said it is expected of individuals who are members of a group to respect its customs even if we personally find them "a bit silly". That why we all feel a need to stand up of during a national anthem, even that of another country. That's why we should also place our hands over out hearts when our anthem is played.
I think it is rude not to do so, but hey, our country gives rights to non conformists, so you can certainly as you see fit. However, if you have a conscientious objection to respecting the flag and/or the national anthem, perhaps you should remain sitting as well.
ProfessorGAC
(70,850 posts)Not negating it.
Empty gestures are, by definition, meaningless.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)....when the person making them believes them to lack meaning. I feel sorry for you because you seem to believe that patriotism and respect for our flag, and thus the county it represents, are beneath you. You live a safe world where showing disrespect for the country's flag is not an offense punishable by imprisonment, but you don't seem to appreciate it.
I am a proud liberal, yet when I stand and face the flag, and put my hand over my heart during the playing of the National Anthem I think of all of those who laid down their lives in wars we could not afford to lose or came back wounded in body and/or spirit so that you and I can enjoy the freedoms we possess as citizens of this country.
Don't dare to call my gestures meaningless.
Cassidy1
(300 posts)The law is the flag code. The law concerns things like making the Star Spangled Banner the national anthem.
Each item you posted in that document includes the word SHOULD. You however, disingenuously follow up with your sentence, "Now no one is going to prosecute you if you don't follow the law." Again, those items are NOT the law.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)The document for which I provided the link quotes the law verbatim on that subject. The Flag Code is US law as it is in bill which was passed by both houses of congress and signed by the President. I suspect that law often says "should" instead "must" or similar wording because since a the provisions concerning the flag are not deemed enforceable since the 1989 Supreme Court ruling that burning the American flag in protest is free speech. Not that anyone was going to arrest you before 1989 for not standing during the national anthem, etc.
johnkramer
(21 posts)It's a law that does not prescribe penalties for noncompliance. It's simply a guide.
This is from your document....
The Code is designed “for the use of such civilian groups or
organizations as may not be required to
conform with regulations
promulgated by one
or more executive departments”
of the federal government.
3
Thus, the Flag Code
does not prescribe any penalties for non-
compliance nor does it include enforcement
provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by
civilians and civilian groups.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)I never said would be arrested if you kept your seat during the national anthem. In fact in many of my posts on this topic I made that quite clear. For heavens sakes, if you can be arrested for burning the American flag, an act deemed repugnant my the vast majority of Americans, you certainly can't be arrested for any infringement of the flag code.
Our rights in this country allow folks to do all kinds of things without penalty which I would find very distasteful and/or very rude. But nothing forces me to like it.
Darb
(2,807 posts)Quit qualifying patriotism and love of country with some cheap, tiny effort like holding your hand over your heart during the anthem. There more to patriotism than hand signals.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I'll be watching fireworks on the 4th and will sing the national anthem if it's played.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)honor it.
Cassidy1
(300 posts)I agree not to let others monopolize what something means, like the flag.
It also applies to religion. One should not be against religion or explorations of God because of evangelicals trying to monopolize what it means to believe in God.
I generally stand for the Anthem, but might sit too. I won't however, stand by with this military hero worship and "fighting for our freedom" nonsense at games and elsewhere.
SCantiGOP
(14,313 posts)As a loose concern over how we seemed to be becoming a more militaristic nation. That bullshit about it being unpatriotic to oppose the President while our fellow citizens were in the field fighting made me sick. They were there fighting because it fit the Administration's master plan and they had lied and blundered their way into it -- and I'm not supposed to criticize the President!?
Of course, they dropped that shit real quick when Obama inherited the mess.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)When I love someone or SomeTHING, I'm in for a penny, in for a POUND.
Those fuckers didn't take my country away from me.
nil desperandum
(654 posts)thank you for stating it plainly...
I volunteered to serve my nation in the US Army because I felt I owed this great nation something for taking my grandfather and father in and making us citizens and accepting us in this melting pot of America....
I love this country, that doesn't mean I love everything it does all the time but having been in lots of places there's no where I'd rather live than here.
If some think I'm a rube for still holding my hand over my heart because I'm no longer supposed to salute the flag so be it. If showing respect for the symbols of the land I love is something to be jeered at then jeer at me...
I take off my hat when I walk the Vietnam wall as a respect for my brothers in arms who no longer walk this beautiful land, and I take my hat off and watch quietly at Arlington at the Tomb of the Unknown as the guards walk the steps and honor those who died in service to our nation.
I respect those men and women, I respect the symbols of those men and women, for me not recognizing those symbols is inappropriate, but i understand not everyone believes the things I do...that's fine with me...
However just because I love the nation and its flag and show respect at its memorials doesn't mean that I don't believe Dick Cheney is a war profiteering, lying, draft-dodging asshole and mean it with all my heart.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)
uppityperson
(115,882 posts)I could never see the reason for it during the song.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)June 29, 1965 to be exact. The day that I happily parted company with the USMC.
“Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s minds & then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead.” ― Arundhati Roy
Grey
(1,581 posts)
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)Before the kickoff/puck drop.
Hayduke Bomgarte
(1,965 posts)No... I will not even stand for the anthem or for the pledge of allegiance. Practices I began in Jr. High School and continue with to this day.
Violet_Crumble
(36,143 posts)I don't even know the words to my national anthem. When I was a kid I misheard the start of it as 'Australians all love ostriches...' and the whole ostrich thing had me so confused I never got any further...
ProfessorGAC
(70,850 posts)Probably not since i was a kid. I thought it was stupid all the way back to early high school.
I government was designed such that nobody is supposed to have to prove allegiance, or even demonstrate it.
chillfactor
(7,694 posts)alarimer
(16,667 posts)When I go to a ballgame, I get there late enough to avoid all that.
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)it's a reflex whenever someone tries to get me to perform a really stupid act of degrading symbolism
tavernier
(13,298 posts)
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)payable in eggnog, in advance
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)
woodsprite
(12,254 posts)Truth is, I just didn't feel like holding it there the whole parade, so I only do it when an honor guard or military unit pass by.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Didn't do it to make a statement. I just liked not doing it.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)If outside, I'm wearing my hat, and a flag is present, I salute.
I get weird looks, complaints, and spontaneous teachers, but I do my thing.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)It is permissible for a veteran in civilian clothing outside to solute the the flag instead of holding the hand over the heart.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)And while it remains permissible for all veterans, the Marine Corps Commandant discouraged it for USMC vets.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)while the document was updated in 2008, I don't think that the actual law was. But like you I had never heard of that provision until I read it recently in the document. I've never saluted the flag in civilian dress; I would find it... odd.
DustyJoe
(849 posts)Never heard any complaint/attempt to correct my actions.
I salute the flag, stand for the anthem at attention and if a flag is present salute.
Unless a vocal detractor or glaring looks by others are from another veteran who as I, left a pound or so of flesh and a few pints of blood on the ground in combat, they aren't worth my time to acknowledge or change a lifelong tradition ingrained by military training/service.
GoneOffShore
(17,655 posts)Here's my version:
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, indivisible, with liberty, justice and equality for all.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I never did. I've never really been patriotic, and I don't like the National Anthem. Even if you get someone who can sing it without butchering it, it's about a flag. Flags are symbols, and I think what today's flag symbolizes is different than that in the song. Since no one ever sings the whole song, there is a focus on bombs without much context. Bombs don't inspire me, either.
I do like "America the Beautiful," and, even better, "This Land Is Your Land," and will sing along. 
clarice
(5,504 posts)NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)You may not respect George Bush, but I will never understand the joyful pride people take in showing disrespect for the country, only to pretend everything is rosy because "the right guy" is in the white house.
The country is not the president. Disrespecting the country, just to protest the president is not something I agree with. For example, the American heartbeat was not created when Bill Clinton was President, then off when Bush, then on again With Barack Obama. The government leadership has been nothing short of embarrassing for a lot longer than the year 2000, but the people of America don't always get heard, you only are shown what organized "news" needs to show you, in order to get a desired reaction. All presidents have been disappointing at one time or another.
Stop watching the news for a week, and just live your life with friends and family without dissecting every event across the country for clues that prove half the country are such terrible human beings, that you are willing to sacrifice your own personal peace to vent relentlessly from whatever soapbox is available. It becomes obvious that the VAST..... VAST majority of people in this country are decent, good, caring people and are NOT racist, homophobe, bible thumping war mongers with a desire to murder minorities........... you just don't ever hear about it on the news. Then start watching the news again and see how much anger and suspicion you start carrying around again. "Us and Them" ........ that is happiness cancer.
The changes that have been brought about are a result of organized focus and direction, not some mind altering messiah that has the ability to alter cognitive thought. Barack Obama is just a man, ......just. a. man.. make no mistake the feeling and the spirit of the American people has always been there, .........sunlight focused is intense ..........but unfocused sunlight is still sunlight and it always shines somewhere.
-or- maybe I'm wrong and the country is filled with douche bags, unless a human belonging to the Democratic party is in charge, then we are all enlightened for 8 years at a time. Thumbing your nose at the country because you hate the president sounds familiar enough, there are always enough people on the opposite side of election results willing to do that, but not me.
Cringe at the thought of celebrating the country you belong to because of whichever meat-sack is in the White House, or feel alive that you woke up this morning in the greatest place on Earth to live. the National Anthem is played to connect the crowd to the feeling of the county's history, community and the event you are attending. Let go of some of the political animosity for just a brief moment while the Anthem is playing,....... I don't see how people can carry political bitterness and hatred around all the time, just waiting for an opportunity to show it off, even at an event you likely PAID to attend. If you don't have any, at least show respect for the people you call countrymen.
Texasgal
(17,169 posts)I'm proud to be an American. Yes, we are not perfect and YES we've had some serious issues. I am not sure that any other place in this world could make me happy 100% of the time though!
So, yes.. I do put my hand over my heart and YES I feel pretty damn good about being an American. No, I am not perfect and neither is my country. If I lived my life to perfect standards I think I'd be dead by now!
Thank you for your post. I feel the same way!
Happy 4th!
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)I'm new here. Until a read some of these posts I was unaware how far out some of the far left really are. I didn't know that some believe that hatred of our country is a prerequisite for being a "true liberal". If it is I guess I don't qualify after all.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)for being a "true liberal".
Can you kindly point out the post where someone says this?
Thanks in advance.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Disrespect, disgust, outrage might be more descriptive. As for examples, there are plenty on this thread. Just look for posts which say "no" and especially the ones that say, "I stay seated".
That type of behavior is simply disrespectful. Not sure what point they are trying to make. At the end of the day and those folks aren't representative of most Democrats.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)a place you need to waste your time. thanks for stopping by
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)and there is also another old saying, "it is better to remain silent and let people think you are ignorant, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt". But maybe I'm not a liberal democrat after all.
Maybe I am not disgusted enough with my country to be a fine liberal democrat like you.
Maybe ActBlue.com is mistaken when it says that so far I have made 139 contributions to President Obama's most recent campaign and to various Democratic Senate candidates in critical 2014 races for a total of $2,384. (I know it's not much, but it was all I could afford.)
Maybe I'm imagining things when I open my inbox and it has about twenty emails a day from Hillary's campaign and from various other Democratic candidates all begging for money.
Maybe you could go to go my blog at cajunscomments.com to try to determine my political leanings by checking out the 130 articles I have posted there over the last two years. But maybe I faked all of those bog posts so I could pretend to be a liberal democrat in order to come here and and effectively harass people like you.
Or maybe I'm one of those DINO's. If there RINO's certainly there have to be DINO's too, right? Well, maybe not.
So the bottom line is that I can't possibly provide any proof that I am a legitimate liberal democrat, so I guess you will just have to take my word on it, or not if your are so inclined. Either way, "Frankly my dear..........."
Why is it that when people can no longer supply rational responses to someone points they often resort to name calling or they insinuate that the other person is not who he/she pretends to be? No, wait! Don't answer - it was a rhetorical question.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)and saying that any kind of protest equates to "hatred of our country". This is a right wing meme.
So are the words above.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Freelancer
(2,107 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Even when it's been played on TV. Because I'm overseas I haven't really been anywhere it has been played in a long long time.
Here in Korea when they play the Korean national anthem "Aegukga", I stand at attention with my arms to my side or behind my back politely.
An interesting story, those of us who are married to a Korean are eligible for citizenship here. One of my co-workers was telling me he applied and got through the entire process, but would have had to salute the flag. He told them he wouldn't just as a matter of principle and that if they ever changed the rules to let him know. For me I just don't see it as necessary.
For anyone interested what "Aegukga" sounds like:
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)The anthem evokes strong emotions from me. I joined the army in 1997 and grew up believing that our military was a tool that would be used to make the world a better place. I was eager to be an infantryman as I wanted to be on point when it came to helping and defending others not as fortunate as me.
Obviously that wasn't what my service really was used for. I was stupid to believe that childhood distortion of mine. I fought in a war that was fought for no reason other than revenge for the attacks on September 11th. The Iraqi people had nothing to do with that, but that small detail didn't seem to matter to the majority of Americans. The American people overwhelmingly supported bush during the early phases of the war. I used to frequent right leaning political forums back in that time and I heard thing like "we should let our military take off their mittens and fight a real war" or "nuke the whole place and turn it into a glass parking lot". Those aren't comments made by people who are interested in nation building and giving freedom to less fortunate. That sounds like a war for the purpose of killing lots of Arabs to me.
The anthem, in me, evokes both positive and negative. I feel patriotism is a tool to control the mass, yet I want to believe in our nation.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)and not put our hands over our hearts. I guess the habit just stuck with me.
hack89
(39,180 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)And I don't pledge allegiances to flags.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I've had mixed reactions to that.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)I do a proper position of attention, though, whenever I hear it. 
AFAIK either standing at attention or putting your hand over your heart are equally acceptable for civilians.
NightWatcher
(39,360 posts)I just want to find my seat before the first pitch (or kickoff).
Iggo
(48,607 posts)I know we did the hand-over-heart thing for the Pledge when I was in grade school back in the 60s.
I don't remember ever doing that for the anthem, though.
Throd
(7,208 posts)"Patriotism is the refuge of scoundrels" is a repudiation of scoundrels, not patriotism.
Horse with no Name
(34,079 posts)Where would I put my beer and hot dog?
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I love the feeling of a community doing something together. I like to join in. A part of my beliefs in this country is the ability to create change. I don't not do this under one president and then think about start doing it again later. I don't even think about the president during the anthem. I think about the people all around me and all of the possible change down the road. I love a sense of community and this is one act that provides such a sense. Together we can accomplish great things.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)I will never sing to a cloth, and it's not only because of Bewsh or the wars of folly.
It was because my Grandfather was a Pearl Harbor survivor and Pearl Harbor in part happened because one of our most undeservedly revered figures in American History, J. Edgar Hoover, ignored the warnings of Dusko Popov because he didn't trust spies and even threatened to have him deported. Ultimately, they just looked at the wrong Axis . . . .
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Haven't heard it live in quite some time.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)tavernier
(13,298 posts)Not at home in my underwear.
Jamastiene
(38,197 posts)as opposed to God Bless America, since 9/11, that is, was when the Queen of England had her band play it right after 9/11. I appreciated that, because our own government was falling over itself to make God Bless America the official "go to" song to bring only the religious part of the country together. The rest of us could go to Hell as far as our government was concerned. The queen of another country was the only one with the decency to play our National Anthem then.
Since then, our government has done nothing but God Bless America. So, I haven't had the chance. I would for the National Anthem, though, yes, if they ever bothered to play it again. I don't do the Pledge of Allegiance though, because under God pisses me off.
I will not for God Bless America either. I'd rather never hear that song again. That song makes me think of 9/11 and Bush being an asshole, and the rest of our government being assholes too, really, to the rest of us in America who don't hate gay people and women. At least, that is what the churches and religious people where I live represent. Riding through this town, there are messages about hellfire and damnation on every church billboard, and most of the churches use those billboards to complain about gay people and women. Nothing else is wrong in their minds. Only being gay or being a woman who doesn't let them control her body. Those are their only complaints, not the double the violent crime rates here, not triple the theft rates here. So, God Bless America is bullshit to me.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)
tymorial
(3,433 posts)If i am wearing a hat, I remove it. Yes, I am a liberal democrat.
benld74
(10,025 posts)AngryOldDem
(14,176 posts)Anymore I hear this the most before I run in races. I'm usually preoccupied with setting up my iPod to pay attention. If that makes me a godless Commie, well, then, okay.
shanti
(21,721 posts)Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)asturias31
(85 posts)I just stand still and listen with respect - unless I am with my kids and others around us are doing the hand-on-heart thing. Then I awkwardly go along with it to make sure the kids get the idea that their mom loves this country.
(I had the opposite ideology pushed on me when I was a kid growing up in a liberal enclave in the 70's: that showing any patriotism proved a person a warmonger; that American soldiers were all Bad People who liked killing; that the land I lived in, and that my father had voluntarily chosen, was evil and should be spat at. I am happy to raise my kids differently. I want them to see the injustices but also appreciate all the freedoms and protections they have here, that they wouldn't have in many other lands.)
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)hay rick
(8,355 posts)Usually that involves taking my hat off as well. I am loyal to the country that I imagine America has been in the past and can be in the future. It's going to take some work.
Liberal_Dog
(11,075 posts)Depends on the occasion.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)I just change the channel until it's over. If I'm at a game, I'll stand, but that's it.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)I don't even stand up! I KNOW many here will think this is taking it too far, but I've been let down too many times for so many years!
Cassidy1
(300 posts)In fact, I applaud you. Thank you.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)But if this is all I can do in my very RED county right now... ONWARD!
LOL!
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Whoever "they" are, they are not your country. Try not to confuse our temporary leadership with the country which provided you the right stay seated during the national anthem - which by the way is a crime punishable by imprisonment in more than a few countries.
As an American you are entitled to this and many more important rights because of the many thousands of your fellow Americans before you who gave their lives for the country for which you refuse to even show respect. Sounds a bit willful and ungrateful to me, but hey, it's a free country.
Cassidy1
(300 posts)This idea of sitting or standing is not even a good one to discuss rights.
People are not entitled to rights because some military figure died. People have rights by virtue of being born. My rights don't depend on foreign interventions. My rights don't depend on you. Connecting your military interruptive nonsense with rights is inaccurate and irrelevant. Connecting it with sitting or standing at a ballgame is inane.
Also, which countries imprison you for sitting during the national anthem? And I'm not talking about causing an over-the-top scene. We're talking about simply sitting.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)I agree: You are entitled to your rights where ever you may live, even if it happens to be in cell of a dank, dark prison of some dictator where torture an everyday occurrence. However, you are only able enjoy and practice your rights in a country whose government protects them.
As for the role of the military in protecting your rights, I believe you may be naive. I doubt seriously whether your rights would be protected very well had the Allies lost World War II. The Nazis and the Imperial Japanese had plans to divide this country between them at the Rocky Mountains had they been able to defeat us. I don't think that you would be able to enjoy the use of many of your rights under either of those two governments.
It is easy to for us to show disdain for this county's military while we live out our lives in our safe and cozy cocoons if we are not the ones who will be called upon to put our lives on the line to safeguard our country and your precious rights.
johnkramer
(21 posts)You are actually talking about a right versus the exercise of that right. That has nothing to do with roles of words in a sentence.
I think your naivete might be showing. Or, you are simply using hyperbole. The Nazis and Japanese having plans to take over the US and them actually doing it are almost as different as the right versus the right's exercise. The Germans could not even conquer England. The fact is that they had spread themselves too thin, even on their own continent. You're going to need a better example it you're going to exaggeratingly and fearfully infer that our rights are somehow hanging by a thread, with only the military acting as our knight in shining armor.
Your dichotomous example of torturous prison/cozy materialism is feeble military propaganda.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)The British Ilses would have been successfully invaded by the Germans had it not been for the United States military. Hitler ordered his troops to invade Russia in September of 1941 precisely because he did not regard the British as a sufficient threat, but he was wrong because the Japanese were stupid enough drag the United States into the war in December of 1941 before his German troops had time to dispatch Britain.
The US was providing significant military aid in the form of supplies and military equipment to Great Britain as early as September of 1940. Three entire fighter squadrons of the Royal Air Force (RAF) were made up of volunteer pilots from the United States prior to America's entry into the war.
The British fought bravely and held off the Germans until the American military arrived in Britain, reinforcing the island with men and material which made a German invasion of Britain impossible. The US aircraft operating from Britain pounded the German military from the air which effectively kept the Germans from concentrating all of their military might on Russia. The British Ilses also provided an launching pad for the Allies invasion of Europe. Most of the troops involved in that invasion were American. Even the threat of that invasion, which the Germans always knew would be coming, kept the Germans from concentrating all of their attention on defeating the Russians.
And let's not forget about the Japanese. The Japanese military rolled the dice in their attack on Pearl Harbor and lost. They hoped to wipe out most of our naval forces in the Pacific, but failed. Their surprise attack sank several of our battleships, but fortunately none of our aircraft carriers were in port, and that ultimately made all of the difference. The Japanese spent the rest of the war trying to fend off the ever advancing American forces. This kept the Japanese military from also attacking Russia on a second front.
As any historian with a knowledge of World War II will verify, is was America's involvement in the War which spelled the difference between defeat and victory for the Allies. Had the US never entered the war, the Axis powers almost certainly would have been victorious on the European and Asian continents. If they had then been allow to recoup and consolidate their conquered territories and rebuild their armed forces we would certainly live in a totally different world, though how different we cannot be sure.
If the US had not entered the war early on, it is hard to say if the Germans and the Japanese would have ultimately been able to successfully invade the United States. The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans would have presented significant barriers to such an invasion, but we and the Canadians would have essentially been fighting alone.
In addition, if the United States had not entered the war, it is likely that Germans would have had time develop atomic weapons first, and they certainly were way ahead of us in the development of rockets capable of delivering such weapons over long distances. Maybe the use of atomic weapons, or even the threat of the use of such weapons would have made an armed invasion unnecessary. We frankly don't know what would have happened if the Germans and Japanese ruled all of Europe and Asia. However, since the German-Japanese agreement on how to they would divide the US between them predated our entry into the war, at least their intentions were clear.
Look you hate war, I get it. But no one hates wars more than military men who have experienced its true horrors. I was in the military during the Vietnam War, but I have come to view that war as a huge mistake and waste of far too many American lives. As Bush and his evil cronies built up forces in Kuwait prior to our invasion of Iraq, I preached everyone who would listen that war was both unnecessary and would ultimately be unwise given the history and ethnic make up of Iraq. My favorite saying in those days was, "It is a huge mistake to remove the evil stopper (Hussein) out of the evil bottle", but most Americans were not in mood to listen. They were taken in by Bush's lies.
However, as much as I hate war, I fully understand that until the world is a very different place, there are likely to be leaders of countries who will be believe that they can take what they want by force of arms. The sad truth is that someone has to be prepared to stop them
johnkramer
(21 posts)There is no empire in world history that has come remotely close to taking over even a minority of the world's geography. You conveniently leave out Russia in your fear mongering scenarios. The simple fact is that Hitler and Japan spread themselves too thin.
Your post is also full of fear mongering what-ifs, as in purporting Germany and Japan's possibly successful invasion the United States. You question the US veracity if the enemy has to cross the vast oceans, but in the same breath tout the US ability to shutdown both Germany and Japan as actually happened.
The Axis were already going to have trouble holding what they had from multiple resistance on all fronts. Simply conquering something and holding onto it for any significant time are two very different things. Again, the Axis spread themselves too thin.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Until you do I would bother commenting on it. Then again, maybe you did read it; it's a free country and there is no rule that we have to know anything about a topic in order to write about it.
johnkramer
(21 posts)Next time just bow out of the thread instead of saying I didn't do something when simple logic shows I did.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 3, 2015, 03:29 PM - Edit history (1)
The way I look at it I spent a lot of time and effort in an attempt to fully explain my logic in depth. With very good reason I very confident of my knowledge of history and that my facts are correct. But how did you respond? You simply stated in rather elegant words that I was wrong with absolute no logic or facts to back up that statement. Then repeated the same (erroneous) statement again, yet again with absolutely no logic or facts to back it up. Saying the same things repeatedly doesn't add to their validity.
However, I am going to bow out of this particular portion of the thread because I have no desire to continue this debate with you. Unfortunately it would be a huge waste of my time. You are stuck on your opinions that no amount of fact based persuasion will ever alter.
johnkramer
(21 posts)Anyway, is that the only example you have? World War II and your implausible scenario about how the Japanese were going to take over the West Coast? Maybe Hawaii wasn't to their liking, huh?
How about something relevant? Who is coming over today to split the US at the Rocky Mountains? Good thing we took out Hussein. You know--"Hitler revisted" and his world class army comparable to the German army.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)At the time that "W" was building up troops in Kuwait preparing for the invasion of Iraq I told everyone I knew that attacking Iraq would be a huge mistake. Even if Hussein had chemical weapons (weapons of mass destruction) it made no difference because he was totally contained and his country was being savaged the world's sanctions.
I was most worried about what would happen if and when Hussein was removed from power and no longer able to prevent old hatreds between Sunnis and Shias from boiling to the surface. In my blog cajunscomments.com I referred to deposing Saddam as "removing the evil stopper from the evil bottle". Once removed there would be no forcing the evil genie that would emerge back into that bottle. However, no one was listening. The lies were being told and the war drums were beating at a fervor pitch.
I am a Vietnam era war veteran. Years earlier I had bought into the domino theory and originally believed that unless we did something to stop it, all of Southeast Asia would fall to Communism. However, I was young and naive, and I was wrong. The Vietnam War was a travesty and one of the biggest mistakes in American History.
However, while I am no fan of war, I hate it as only a veteran can, I know that sometimes you have no choice but to fight because enemy deprives you of that choice. If you don't understand that, then there is no hope for you.
Now I am truly going to bow out of this portion of this tread. You can post whatever you wish because I won't be reading it. Enjoy yourself.
johnkramer
(21 posts)I agree there are times, but that is not the point.
The Iraq scenario was an easy call. Of course, chaos would erupt. Everyone at the State Dept and Defense knew it--from the Secretary all the way down to the janitors. A high school student could figure that out.
The trick however, was to minimize that information to the American public. Not only that, but they had to manufacture lies, such as "Hitler revisted" and the PR firm that was hired to lie about Hussein pulling helpless babies from incubators.
Other nonsense was manufactured, such as terrorism and keeping us safe to enjoy our freedoms. All lies for slothful Americans. Your World War II scenarios are a world away from contemporary happenings.
Oh and you'll be reading this. You can't resist.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)There was no way that they were even going to be able to approach the US mainland. They couldn't even hold the Aleutian Islands of Attu and Kiska.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)The Japanese made a huge mistake by bombing Pearl Harbor; that attack aroused a sleeping tiger. Their mistake was magnified by the fact that we were lucky that none of our aircraft carriers were in port January 7, 1941. The US did not attack the Japanese, Quite the opposite, the Japanese intent was to cripple our entire Pacific fleet leaving us defenseless against them. They failed and they paid heavily for their mistake.
However, the point I was making was that as much as some of us hate war, sometimes it is necessary to defend ourselves. Your post shows that you know enough about the History of World War II to understand that had never been attacked, and we had elected to sit out the war, the world would be a far different place today. Some here don't have enough knowledge to understand that.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I'm more used to old school New York Mets games where people were throwing ice cream, eating hot dogs, spilling beer and cheering half way through the anthem just to get the singer outta there so we can start the game.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)
mnhtnbb
(32,172 posts)I have a pretty decent voice and I used to sing the National Anthem--up until about
the time Bush was appointed by the Supremes and then went on to start an illegal
war.
I am SO sick of glorifying war. I'd love to see a national anthem focused on something else.
Paper Roses
(7,518 posts)I support my country but not the song and not the hand over heart.
When I feel this country is equal to all, I will put my hand over my heart but will never support the current anthem. It is a song to glorify war. I cannot support that.
iscooterliberally
(3,032 posts)...when we have more people behind bars than any other nation on earth? Our country is in need of major reform on so many levels that I just don't feel like standing or participating in any of that kind of stuff. I feel like our national anthem is a lie, but it doesn't have to be that way. We have government of the money, by the money and for the money.
Freelancer
(2,107 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 4, 2015, 01:11 AM - Edit history (1)
No one around you will know your reasons. You're a big question mark to them.
iscooterliberally
(3,032 posts)I vote. I have served on several juries. I write my representatives. The national anthem makes some people feel good I suppose. It doesn't really appeal to me unless Jimi Hendrix plays it. I am irreverent. I spent most of my childhood bowing to this and kneeling to that and putting my hand over my heart for this other thing. Unfortunately we are not the land of the free like it says in the song. We are slaves to greed and unbridled capitalism. Our bursting prison populations and private prison industry burn the illusion of freedom into dust.
snpsmom
(791 posts)based on years of military indoctrination.
ancianita
(38,930 posts)
Boomerproud
(8,503 posts)I get plenty of dirty looks about it too. Respect and love have to be a two-way street and I'm feeling neither from most of my fellow countrymen.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)nilesobek
(1,423 posts)"Gangsta rap made me do it," I put my hand over my heart. When I hear Gwen Stefani sing the birds come out of the trees and alight on my shoulders.
We are just beginning to realize that these gestures really have no meaning at all, except for some twisted loyalty test.
mountain grammy
(27,410 posts)brewens
(15,359 posts)times, I recite the traditional pledge.
Beartracks
(13,620 posts)I found this in a post by an Administrator at usa-flag-site.org (http://www.usa-flag-site.org/forum/threads/when-to-put-your-hand-over-your-heart.1768/):
------------------------------------------------
The etiquette is spelled out in Title 36 Subtitle 1, Para. 301 of the US Code:
During a rendition of the national anthem:
(1) when the flag is displayed:
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
There's a different section of the US code (Title 4 Chapter 1, Section 9) that gives the proper way to salute when the flag is raised, lowered, or passes in a parade. That title used to have basically the same language as the above. Title 4 was amended by Congress earlier this year to allow military personnel and veterans to give the military salute even if they were not in uniform. However, Congress did not make the corresponding change to Title 36. Technically, a military person or veteran wearing civilian clothes can give the military salute when the flag passes, but not when the national anthem is played!
- Peter Ansoff
------------------------------------------------
I have always considered the hand-over-heart as optional for the Anthem, but I guess I was wrong.
============
2banon
(7,321 posts)no flag waving either. I tried to refuse signing the "loyalty" oath when enrolling in college, but only did it after threat of refusing me student grants. oky doky then I said... but I did so in protest.
so No.
IVoteDFL
(417 posts)It's not one thing in particular that makes me want to, I just never have outside of school. I don't find it necessary in general.
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)(I skip that "under God" nonsense, though. It's gotten me lots of dirty looks, especially during the Dumbya years, but I just stare back and the bastards don't dare say a thing to me.)
I also stand during the anthem, if I'm out where it's being played. I'm a veteran, and I believe in honoring the soldiers who fought before me. Right or wrong, they did their best and I'm not going to shit on them.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)I do remove my hat if I am wearing one.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)and I do not stand. It is a terrible anthem.
"This Land Is Your Land" would be far better.
Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Original post)
Freelancer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)exact antithesis of democratic thinking.
Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #236)
Freelancer This message was self-deleted by its author.
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tanyev
(44,816 posts)It's probably been more than two decades.