Sweden stirs debate with women-only swimming, in nod to Muslims

[Quantess]

As Muslims become a larger part of Swedish society, some municipal pools are offering women-only swimming to accommodate the new arrivals. But while well intended, the new policy is bumping up against Swedish ideals of equality.

MALMÖ, SWEDEN — On the face of it, the decision to offer special women's swimming hours at the Hyllie sports center, a municipal swimming pool in the southern Swedish city of Malmö, should not be contentious.

Indeed, Malmö is not alone. According to a survey by the Swedish TV channel TV4, 13 of Sweden's 100 largest municipalities have begun offering separate swimming hours for men and women. “Our facilities are used by 40 percent women and 60 percent men,” Johan Hermansson, the head of Malmö's recreations department, told TV4. “Our ambition is for them to be used equally by girls and boys, men and women.”

And that is raising a much larger issue for Sweden. Should the native population adjust to immigrant groups' different lifestyles by accommodating women-only swimming and the like, thus providing access to Muslim newcomers who would otherwise not feel comfortable in gender-equal conditions? Or does the implementation of such segregation, however well intended, ultimately undermine the country's hard-earned traditions of gender equality.

To integrate or to segregate?
The separate swimming hours have cause an enormous debate in Sweden, with many calling the move regressive and a ghettoization of women, while others laud it as a sensible inclusion of the country's increasingly diverse population. This month Sweden's democracy minister, Alice Bah Kuhnke, told Swedish TV that gender-segregated swimming hours – as the system is often referred to – are problematic and called mixed-gender swimming “a victory after many years and generations of gender-equality struggle.”

More at the link:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2016/0530/Sweden-stirs-debate-with-women-only-swimming-in-nod-to-Muslims

[Nye Bevan]

1. Would transgender individuals who identify as women be permitted to swim during these hours? (nt)

[Quantess]

11. This opens up a can of worms, doesn't it?

I'm sure the swedish govt. leaders would answer yes, while naively sticking their heads in the sand about the increased likelihood of transgender discrimination. I doubt they have thought that far.

[Bucky]

12. Only if they didn't use the bathroom

(it's never "too soon"!)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

54. Nah, they'd just be stoned to death

Oh, wait did I say that?

We're not there....yet.

Yet.

[Mike Nelson]

2. I am for gender equality...

...welcome to Muslims, but swimming together is OK. A public pool can decide, if there are enough people, but the main rule should be everyone is welcome. Just like everyone should be able to buy a Wedding Cake in their local store, Gay or Straight.

[oberliner]

3. Men who refuse to shake hands with women should not be part of a secular government leadership

And that was the Green Party, ostensible a leftist, feminist party.

It would be sad for Sweden to abandon its secular, liberal values, especially with respect to gender equality.

[Fumesucker]

4. Some of the non Muslim Swedes may have eaten haram foods such as pork

Perhaps there should be halal pools for Muslims only so they do not have to immerse themselves in water that has touched a body nourished by unclean forbidden foods.

[rug]

5. At one point, NYC and others had women only subway cars, for purely secular reasons.

http://lostwomynsspace.blogspot.com/2011/06/suffragette-cars-women-only-cars-on-new.html

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Gosh your own link tells a far more complex tale than you suggest....one car experiment:

One women’s group, the Women’s Municipal League, supported the idea, while a host of others opposed it, stating that it was impractical and unnecessary.

After months of debate, the idea was abandoned. Officials decided that the Hudson Tube women-only cars weren’t that successful after all, and that women didn’t want them anyway.

Said one official in an August 1909 New York Times article:

“Almost an equal number of people (to the advocates of women’s cars) stated that men are the best protection that women have in a crowded car, and that they prefer to ride in cars where men and women are together, that while there are rare occasions when some brute will take advantage of the situation to insult a lady, on the other hand the gentlemen are the best protection the ladies want against such conduct.”
http://lostwomynsspace.blogspot.com/2011/06/suffragette-cars-women-only-cars-on-new.html

So it did not last, it was not widely supported and according to the article they had one single car on one line. Your post implies many cars as an ongoing policy....

[rug]

47. Gosh, your own inferences from one post are qite exaggerated..

Now, if you want an actual discussion - or internet fight - on the topic, read this:

http://cjgl.cdrs.columbia.edu/article/the-stubborn-persistence-of-sex-segregation/

David S. Cohen,"The Stubborn Persistence of Sex Segregation." Columbia Journal of Gender and Law. Voulme 20, Number 1 (2011).

[jwirr]

85. Aren't there special schedules for different groups now at a

lot of swimming pools? Exercise groups, children's groups, etc. I know a few overweight women who would much prefer to swim with women only.

If they had insisted that they wanted a time for Muslim only swimming then it would be kind of different based on religion only but I do not see a real problem with this. It would not be just about Muslim women. I am willing to bet that there are other Swedish women who would prefer to swim with only woman.

As a woman who will not go to the gym my reason is because I want at least some privacy. Our gym actually allows women's groups. As well as elderly only.

[a la izquierda]

60. Mexico City still segregates some cars by gender.

Women and children under 12 in one area, men in another. Women can (and do) ride with me (I often do if I'm traveling with friends).

I don't have a link, I'm just telling y'all what I know from living here part of the year.

[rug]

61. Thanks for that info.

A friend of mine visits her family there every couple of years. I'll have to ask her what she thinks of it.

[a la izquierda]

62. Some stations do it all day...

Others just during rush hour. Some stations don't segregate at all.

[rug]

63. I'd love to know the rationale for that.

[Fast Walker 52]

6. 1 hour set aside for women only seems reasonable, as long as long they have the traditional

mixed swimming times too

[Travis_0004]

8. And set 1 hour aside for men only.

[Fast Walker 52]

18. if they want it, sure

[GulfCoast66]

39. I call bullshit.

Islam hates gays as well. Would you support a 1 hour gay free swim so as not to expose them to such depravity?

It always fun watching ideologues sacred cows ramming each other.

Religion is a choice. Gender and sexual orientation are not. If their chosen religion make swimming with girls or gays a problem they can pound sand or buy their own private pool.

[Fast Walker 52]

40. accomodating them for a short period is reasonable, IMO

better to keep them integrated with the public to some extent, than outcast. They will moderate over time, probably.

[GulfCoast66]

42. So Mississippi

Should have been able to remain segregated on say Wednesday afternoons and Saturday mornings because they would have moderated with time, probably? It has been 50 years and they are still segregated on Sunday mornings where the Federal government has no power.

In my mind there is no difference. I know liberals have the inclination to support groups they see as oppressed. But supporting the misogyny and homophobia of the migrants is beyond the pale and will only encourage them to insist that more elements of their patriarchal culture be accommodated.

They wanted to go to Sweden because they see it as a paradise and then immediately start insisting on the practices that made the countries they are fleeing a hellhole.

We liberals have a grave obligation to help them but no obligation to compromise our valued at home.

[Fast Walker 52]

46. I'm sympathetic to your point and I'm ok with not having twomen-only hours too

But I don't think it's the same sort of bigotry in the different cases.

[Skittles]

74. accomodating sexism is NOT reasonable

[Fast Walker 52]

80. what if the women want it?

[Quantess]

82. It's a sad statement about a fucked-up culture

that is being imported to a culture where men and women have skinny dipped in the same lakes forever, without anyone getting upset.

[Skittles]

87. accomodating sexism is not reasonable

FOR ANY REASON

[Jesus Malverde]

88. You tell em skittles...nt

[smirkymonkey]

90. Hear, hear!

[Marrah_G]

7. I think that if you move to a country you should abide by their culture

Those who insist on changing their adopted culture's ways often come from countries who come from strict cultures that would kill people rather then change or allow differences.

If you are running from one culture to another, don't try and change the new culture to the one you just ran from.

[phylny]

9. I agree with you.

If the pool is public, it's there to serve the public. If you cannot abide by the rules, find a friend with a private swimming pool or build your own.

[Odin2005]

13. Europe's problem is that immigrants are not allowed to truly assimilate.

Most Europeans still subscribe to a "blood and soil" form of nationalism and will never accept immigrants as "real" Swedes, Germans, French, etc.

That is why I say all these refugees should be brought to the US and Canada, where they will be actually allowed to assimilate.

[Marrah_G]

14. I think that is partially/mostly right

I also think there are those who really don't want to and radical imams grasp that and foster non-integration.

[Quantess]

16. Some immigrants assimilate a lot more quickly than others.

Some immigrants appear to have absolutely no intention of assimilating.

The segregation and the ghettos only make the problem worse, you are correct about that.
Sweden has a poor track record of being a melting pot, since it isn't working very well.

[zeemike]

19. It's not their fault

It is the fault of a 7th century regressive religion who will impose their religion on anyone weak enough to let them.

It amazes me a liberal country like Sweden compromising their liberal ways to accommodate Islam.
They would never do it for a Christian religion and progressives here in this country would not make excuses for it.

[Odin2005]

20. Take your Islamophobic BS to Free Republic.

[zeemike]

22. Bullshit.

Take your name calling there...I will not be intimidated by it.

[Odin2005]

24. You are a bigot who thinks all Muslims are Saudi-influenced Wahhabi fundamentalists.

That's like saying all Christians are backward idiots because of Dominionists like Ted Cruz.

[Quantess]

26. Well, I think muslim cultures in general have a huge misogyny problem

and for you to defend it so eagerly could very well mean that you a sexist and a homophobe enabler. But I don't know you, so of course, I'm not going to label you that way.

[ananda]

48. I agree.

Muslim society is extremely anti-woman.

But, then, much of American society is veering
more and more towards anti-woman attitudes
and policies as well.

[Quantess]

49. I disagree that the the USA is becoming more sexist and/or anti-woman,

with the exceptions of reproductive rights, and the financial strain of being a parent. In any case, neither of those are much of a problem in Sweden.

It's pretty good to be a woman in Sweden, comparatively, and I hope it stays that way. The muslim men seem to want to change all of that, at least, that's what I'm afraid of. They definetly have brought a lot of the problems with them to their new country.

[zeemike]

27. And yet criticizing Christians is fasionable

But if you criticize Islam you are a bigot...go figure.
And no one said all Muslims except you.

But even regressive people like the Westboro Baptist Church will not kill you if you are gay or if you insult Jesus. So there is a big difference between the two extremist.

[davidn3600]

28. Sweden, a progressive country, is regressing to satisfy Muslims

And you want to call it a modern and peaceful religion?

Sorry, but Islam will have extreme problems assimilating in ANY western country unless the religion and its followers decide to join the rest of us in the 21st century.

That's just reality.

[Odin2005]

45. This is a cultural issue, not a religious one.

Bosnian-Americans, who are Muslim, are assimilating here in the US just fine. Why? Because Bosnians are culturally European, they went though all the same social shifts other Europeans went through in the 19th and 20th centuries.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

92. No, it's not just "cultural"

Some sects of Christianity are extremely fundamentalist based on their interpretation of the bible, and some are quite liberal. You can't blame the Christian fundies behavior on culture.

Fundie Islam doesn't get a pass based on "culture," either.

[Jim Beard]

76. Sweden has ruined itself.

[smirkymonkey]

91. +1000

[philosslayer]

25. I think thats a good idea

Look at the impact of Muslim immigrants in the US. They are assimilating and thriving. The United States is much more accommodating to immigrants.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. No, it's quite the opposite

It's just that assimilate means assimilate, not the hyphenated North American multi-cultural or melting pot Jamaicans celebrating St. Patrick's Day idea. And that assimilation probably isn't going to jive with your imaginary friend's social attitudes.

[frogmarch]

21. I agree with you.

What allowances will be next? A couple of days ago in Pakistan, a bill was introduced that would make it legal to beat women in public under certain circumstances if they defy their husbands for, say, not dressing the way their husbands want them to, giving money to someone without their husbands' permission, or not having sex with their husbands on demand. If the bill becomes law, abuse of women, which has always pretty much been deemed socially acceptable there, will now be officially OK by law.

I think in Sweden's case, if they give these misogynists an inch, they'll demand a mile.

[Quantess]

23. Which takes us back to the question of transgendered people,

as mentioned in post #1.

This opens up the likelihood of discrimination to transgendered people, once a misogynistic, homophobic culture is allowed to dictate segregation between the genders, where there was none before.

Give them an inch and they will try to take a mile. Guaranteed.

[smirkymonkey]

58. +1000

[Nay]

32. What Marrah Said. nt

[LittleGirl]

15. Sweden needs to read a page out of the American

history books. Many people immigrated to America decades and centuries ago and they assimilated because they went there for a new life.

If these religious groups want to have segregated swimming times, they should build their own pool and segregate that one, like a private club.

The governments of the world need to realize that women are not second class citizens and should be assured that they have equal rights.

I know refugees had no other choice to flew a war torn country but making demands on their host country just isn't fair for the citizens that accepted them or they should consider going somewhere else to live.

(Note: I live abroad and don't expect special accommodations because of it.)

[MowCowWhoHow III]

17. Sweden has odd priorities

Fewer than 500 of 163,000 asylum seekers found jobs

Of almost 163,000 people who applied for asylum in Sweden last year, less than 500 landed a job, according to a report by a Swedish public broadcaster.

Using figures from Sweden's employment agency Arbetsförmedlingen and migration authorities Migrationsverket, SVT reported on Tuesday that 494 asylum seekers who arrived in 2015 have managed to find a job to support themselves while waiting for their application to get processed.

A person who arrives in Sweden with valid identification documents and has applied for asylum is normally allowed to work despite not yet having a work or residence permit, if Migrationsverket grants them an exception.

Such an exception is called the 'at-und' and usually gets processed automatically, reported SVT. However, only a third of asylum seekers aged 20-64 were given one in a year when Sweden received an unprecedented number of asylum claims.

http://www.thelocal.se/20160531/fewer-than-500-of-163000-asylum-seekers-found-jobs

[Democat]

29. In the future when segregation becomes common in Sweden

Will they regret giving away a women's right to equality?

Look at what's happening to Turkey.

[philosslayer]

30. A minor accommodation...

To deal with a group that is experiencing quite a cultural shock. I trust the Swedes know what they're doing.

[smirkymonkey]

31. Really? Do you speak for Swedish men and women now?

What arrogance!

[philosslayer]

33. Local Swedish authorities

And the Swedish Government are supporting this. And THEY speak for the Swedish men and women.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. It's 14 out of 100 cities. This indicates it is not a very popular choice at all.

Not universal, not national. A few localities doing this, lots of discussion about it. None of that suggests the certainty you claim for the issue. 14 towns. A handful.

[philosslayer]

35. Exactly

A minor accommodation. You've made my point.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Obviously that is not my point. Your snark is motivated by bias. That's obvious.

You drip of disrespect and dishonesty. A few towns have done this but you claim it is the will of all Sweden.

Would you support 'Straights Only' hours? How about 'Whites Only'? There are so called religions that believe all of that, do you support that as well? Obviously you do.

[philosslayer]

68. Did i say it was "the will of all Sweden"???

I made the point that a minor, temporary accommodation is being made in a handful of towns. And yet DU blows up like Sweden has just imposed Sharia law.

[romanic]

75. "Sweden has just imposed Sharia Law"

Not yet anyway...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

55. The rest, of course, are just bigots.

[GulfCoast66]

57. When the Feds forced the segregated south

To integrated our schools, those racist had one hell of a cultural shock. We did not allow them to ease into it by allowing them to still segregate on certain days, say Monday and Wednesday. Not one damn bit of difference.

They love the idea of going to the paradise called Sweden and the first thing they do is demand the Swedes change their culture.

And I am not saying all Muslims but sure as hell enough to make it an issue. If it were a distinct minority the others would be telling them to STFU.

[whatthehey]

36. Religious motivation, possible that is, aside

I see no real issue. Curves, still quite popular despite the decline, exists because there are women who prefer to exercise apart from men. I'd be more likely to visit such facilities when children were excluded; doubtless families with kids would seek out dedicated hours in the opposite direction. Even if Islam caused this direction, it's one that harms nobody as long as ther are sufficient hours to provide access for all. Women only between 5 to 10pm 7 days a week? Not fair. Women only 8-9pm Monday and Friday? Sure.

[philosslayer]

44. Well put

A mountain is being made of a molehill.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. Curves is a private business, what you suggest is closing down the beaches which belong to us all

so that some humans don't have to see other humans. It's insanity. It's wrong. We close National Parks to, well, is it just genders? Can other 'faith groups' sue to exclude minorities they don't like for a few hours from anywhere they wish as well, or is this 'faith group' super precious special? I know some 'faith groups' that don't want LGBT around. You cool with that? Certain hours only? No gays 9-12?

[whatthehey]

83. While no expert in Sweden, most European sports facilities serve the same niche as health clubs

Even if run by municipalities, they are nothing more than socialized health clubs which charge admission, offer classes and so on. This is not closing a public beach or national park to men, let alone ad absurdum nonsense about LGBT groups, but giving some reserved hours in a purpose built utilitarian swimming pool in an athletics facility just like the YMCAs do here. Are they wrong too?

[brooklynite]

37. I hope they're required to wear burkinis...

?w=964&h=639&crop=1

You can't take a chance that a man might be peering through the window.

[milestogo]

50. Swimming maybe, sunbathing no.

[rollin74]

38. sad to see Sweden taking a step backwards

slowly but surely liberal values in many European nations are being diminished in an effort to placate religious nuts and fundamentalists

[smirkymonkey]

59. It's sad, isn't it?

I hate to see Europe go backwards.

[KamaAina]

41. NYC is having the same debate

but it involves orthodox Jews rather than Muslims.

[Liberal_in_LA]

69. A slippery slope

[Atman]

51. Here is a crazy idea...

NO SPECIAL ACCOMMODATIONS FOR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS IN A PUBLICLY FUNDED VENUE.

You don't like it, start your own "Muslim Women Only" swim club. Or "Christian Women Only." Why do we need special swim clubs because of your religion? It's freakin' ridiculous.

[Coventina]

53. I like the way you think!

[romanic]

52. Sweden shouldn't sacrifice it's liberal values

to appease a bunch of fundy barbarians. If they continue to do this, who knows what else they'll do to appease them; shutting down gay pride, walling off Jewish communities, requiring non-muslim women to veil themselves, etc etc. The list goes on.

[Dont call me Shirley]

56. The immigrants should adapt to the customs and laws of their host country.

[gollygee]

64. Islamic women where I live wear special bathing suits.

Last edited Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:52 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't know how to describe them exactly. Like wet suits with a long dress made of similar material covering it. And with a headscarf.

On the other hand, I know gyms with women-only areas so that Islamic women can wear comfortable gym clothes.

[StevieM]

71. Misplaced homonym. I think you meant to say "wear" special bathing suits. (eom)

[gollygee]

81. You're right. That's embarrassing. :D Thanks! Nt

[StevieM]

86. It happens to all of us at some point, no big deal. Also, you can always edit your post. (eom)

[Zorra]

65. Church and State must always remain seperate, no matter

what the religion.

In a democracy, the commons should never defer to religious customs and traditions.

[dilby]

70. Has anyone asked Trump what he would do?

Because I would do the complete 180 opposite of him.

[davidn3600]

72. So it's now considered "progressive" for the state to bend to the demands of religion....

...as long as that religion is not Christianity, of course.

[Democat]

77. As long as they're not Christians, many liberals love right wingers

Right wingers of several religions other than Christianity are even loved and defended on DU.

[pnwmom]

73. It is regressive and non-egalitarian and Sweden should not have to go backwards

to accommodate new residents.

[bdwker]

78. Its happening all over Europe.

Britains Sharia courts
French ban of pork in schools.
Switzerland ban on minarets(sp)

Time to face the facts.

[pnwmom]

79. The Sharia courts aren't a part of the public system,

and the French haven't banned pork in schools.

I'm not sure what facts you think have to be faced.

[redgreenandblue]

84. Would you be in favor of a "no men allowed" swimming pool?

Somehow it seems to all be in the framing.

A while back, people were calling on a ban from Muslim men entering public pools. This was considered to be the proper backlash against incidents involving Muslim men. And I'm sure a Feminist or two would be in favor of extending this policy to exclude not just Muslim men, but all men. You know, female safe-spaces and all that.

But when Muslims suggest the same thing, suddenly it is "omfg secularism, we will not be segregated!!!111". Goes to show that more often than not, it is not about what is being said, but who said it. Which is one of the main reasons why I dislike political discussions....

[Quantess]

93. Sweden didn't have these problems before the huge influx of muslim immigrants.

In swedish culture, men and women have gone skinny dipping in the same lakes together, and nobody bats an eyelash.

Now, there are multiple problems, mostly stemming from (as I see it) males from muslim cultures who have been taught that females are inviting sexually assault when they share a swimming pool and aren't covered head to toe. The muslim females have also bought into this cultural baggage.

Another thing, where do transgendered people fit into this dilemma?

Most of the restrooms in Sweden are unisex. Is that going to be a thing of contention now, too?

[Jesus Malverde]

89. The Wikipedia article on Islam in Sweden is interesting.

Early Muslim immigrants were fleeing Islamic societies like Iran, for more freedom. These recent immigrants are fleeing poverty and war not religious extremism.

Sad to see Swedish state funds some mosques and their misoginist messages.

In 2012, the SVT program Uppdrag granskning (Mission: Investigation) visited 10 mosques once with a hidden camera and once with a visible camera. When the representatives were aware of being filmed, they stated that they supported values such as gender equality. However, when two undercover journalists posed as Muslim women with difficulties in their marriage, the answers from the majority of the visited imams were different. The imams told the women that they were expected to sleep with their husbands even if they did not want to, that they were to accept being beaten and strongly discouraged them to go to the police. Since about half of the visited mosques receive state or local funding, they are expected to promote basic values of Swedish society, such as equal rights between genders and to counteract discrimination and violence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Sweden