Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say

[RussBLib]

Source: New York Times

Didn't seethis here yet. Gifted article.

Small amounts of explosive were implanted in beepers that Hezbollah had ordered from a Taiwanese company, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.

Israel carried out its operation against Hezbollah on Tuesday by hiding explosive material within a new batch of Taiwanese-made pagers imported into Lebanon, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.

The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. Most were the company’s AR924 model, though three other Gold Apollo models were also included i

Read more: Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Lk4.3slq.xGPD51IyCmgT

---

Didn't see this here yet. Gifted article.

[ColinC]

1. Up to 3,000 people have been injured

Something tells me they weren’t all Hezbollah, and this is essentially a terrorist attack.

[RussBLib]

2. I suppose

...it is not as indiscriminate as a 1,000lb bomb, but no doubt some innocent people were harmed, or worse.

[ColinC]

4. Yep

[Beastly Boy]

55. Harmed by communications devices intended and distribured by Hezbollah for the exclusive use of its operatives.

Who will sue Hezbollah or its members for gross negligence? By accepting the beepers, those men (and I would bet a seven dollar bill on them being overwhelmingly men fit for military service) accepted the risks of being targeted. If they spread this risk on unsuspecting bystanders, they will have to account for that.

[former9thward]

12. If the terrorist group Hezbollah had not been firing missiles into Israel at civilians,

no one would have been injured.

[ColinC]

13. I don't know that. But I do know if pagers were not laced with explosives and exploded in heavily civilian areas

This would not have happened

[MarineCombatEngineer]

17. Which leads back to the fact the if Hizbollah hadn't been firing missiles into Israel,

this would not have happened.

[ColinC]

19. Sounds eerily like "if the US did not invade Muslim territories, 9/11 would not have happened"

That was Al Qaedas reason for 9/11. It is a terroristic justification for terror and killing civilians.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

21. We invaded Muslim territories before 9/11?

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:03 PM - Edit history (1)

When did that happen?
I seem to remember that the invasions happened after 9/11.

[ColinC]

25. Regardless of the semantics, he did it because of specific military actions that he felt warranted it

Kinda like Israel basically bombing civilians with pagers.

https://1997-2001.state.gov/www/regions/sa/bin_laden_charges.html#:~:text=August%201996%20Declaration%20of%20War,of%20Jihad%20Against%20the%20Americans

[MarineCombatEngineer]

27. Regardless of the semantics?

So you admit you were wrong?
And Israel didn't "bomb" civilians with pagers, this was a targeted attack on the C&C systems of Hizbollah which is a legitimate target in wartime, at least Israel tried to limit the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike Hizbollah, which intentionally targets Israeli civilians.

[ColinC]

28. Kuwait was an invasion, and among those referenced by Bin Laden for his war against the US

The pagers blew up in heavily civilian areas. That qualifies as bombing civilians.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

31. Desert Storm, which I participated in, was a operation to liberate a Muslim

country invaded by Iraq, and we were invited in by Saudi Arabia, which pissed off Bin Laden who condemned SA when they turned him down on raising an Army to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
BTW, we were part of a coalition, including Muslim countries that participated to expel Iraq.
Try to get your "facts" correct.

[sarisataka]

34. Semantics...

[ColinC]

35. Oh no I agree with you. Bin Laden didn't.

[DiamondShark]

69. Well that makes no sense...

Wasn't the majority of the 9-11 hijackers from Saudi Arabia?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

71. You do know that Desert Shield/Desert Storm was before the 9/11 attacks don't you?

Desert Shield/Desert Storm was in 90-91 while the 9/11 attacks were in 2001, so I don't understand what your post has to do with Desert Storm.

[DiamondShark]

78. Still, doesn't make sense considering the context...

MarineCombatEngineer
Desert Storm, which I participated in, was a operation to liberate a Muslim...
country invaded by Iraq, and we were invited in by Saudi Arabia, which pissed off Bin Laden who condemned SA when they turned him down on raising an Army to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
BTW, we were part of a coalition, including Muslim countries that participated to expel Iraq.
Try to get your "facts" correct.

There must be more to the story that is being left out.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

79. Ok, and...........?

I still don't understand what you're getting at.

[DiamondShark]

80. I guess we will never know...

Why Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia worked together on 9-11 to bring down the twin towers. Unless there is more that is being left out regarding Desert Storm. Hence the direct quote.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

81. Fair enough, although, I still don't get it.

Peace out
Dan.

[DiamondShark]

83. Agreed.

I am still trying to understand how Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia were enemies in 90-91, but then the majority of the 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

84. Quite the conundrum I agree. nt

[sarisataka]

29. Bombing civilians with pagers?

Am I correct that in your view Hezbollah are civilians?

[ColinC]

30. In my view Hezbollah was a tiny minority of the people injured by those explosions.

Lebanese civilians took the brunt of the injuries.

[sarisataka]

32. Not according to Lebanese media, government and Hezbollah

who are stating the "vast majority" were Hezbollah.

[ColinC]

36. Perhaps my view is incorrect. Do you have a link?

[sarisataka]

39. CNN video report from the American University of Beirut Medical Center

Hear what pager attack victim told CNN off-camera

[ColinC]

41. Thank you! Although I am interested mostly in the identities of the 2800 injuries

It seems improbable that all of them were Hezbollah. One video I saw went off in a grocery store -that alone may have injured a few dozen civilians in that instance.

[sarisataka]

42. No one in Lebanon, including Hezbollah is claiming many civilian casulaties

The number is not zero, unfortunately, but appears to be very low. I saw one video of a man standing within a foot of another when the pager exploded, the bystander was uninjured.

[ColinC]

45. I am claiming civilians were majority of those injured. Not killed.

14 people were killed. I would imagine those were the people that were specifically targeted. Injuries would have been people around them. It is reasonable to assume the vast majority of injuries were civilians, no?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

46. No. nt

[ColinC]

47. So then who were the 2800 injured? You are telling me the vast majority were Hezbollah?

When each explosion occurred isolated from other Hezbollah members?

[sarisataka]

48. No, do the math

Given the amount of explosive (very small- it had to fit into a pager) the pager would have to be on or very near its target.

Hezbollah ordered 3000 pagers. The total killed and wounded is 2700-2800. Those numbers are very close. If there were 6,000-7,000 injured you might have a case.

[ColinC]

50. So far two of the 12 people were children killed

2 were healthcare workers.


That already shows a high level of in discrimination in the attacks even if the majority killed were militants (which we now know probably were not)

The second wave also deepens concern over the potentially indiscriminate casualties caused in the attacks, in which hundreds of blasts went off wherever the holder of the pager happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes, often with family or bystanders nearby.

While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the group’s extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community.

At least two health workers were among those killed Tuesday. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers.

https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288

[sarisataka]

52. I am glad we agree on a high level of discrimination

The fatality rate is less than .5%

Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations

emphasis added
If one chooses to work for a terrorist organization, one is accepting some risks come with such a choice.

Also as we have seen, the line between doctors/journalist/teacher/UN employee and active terrorist participant is quite permeable

[ColinC]

53. Civilians working for Hezbollah linked organizations are civilians.

And the services they provide are necessary for Lebanese society to exist. Pointing out that they were linked to Hezbollah is a distinction without a difference. We are discussing civilian casualties and injuries. Not whether or not the civilians might have been linked to Hezbollah. Children were “linked” to Hezbollah too -often as family members. Does that mean it was right to kill them?

[sarisataka]

54. Point of fact- in the 9/11 attacks

I do not begrudge the selection of the Pentagon as a target. It is a military center even though thousands of civilians work there. What made that specific attack terrorist was the use of a civilian airliner as the means of attack

[ColinC]

56. I recc'd this post because I appreciate the consistency of your argument

But I thoroughly disagree with the legitimacy of the attacks entirely. The Pentagon might have been a military target but (I think) it is largely civilians who worked there, and the vast majority killed would likely be civilians.

[sarisataka]

58. We argee to disagree- fair enough

I appreciate the discussion

As long as we both vote for Harris/Walz I think we can socialize together.

[ColinC]

64. We do! And I have no faith that any of these issues can be resolved unless she is elected

And I have enormous faith in her and her team.

Thank you for the discussion as well!!

[24601]

73. Terrorists working within Hezbollah also are civilians. While Hezbollah has politicians who are elected to and

participate in the Parliament's coalitions, their military wing, is not part of the nation's armed forces. They are a non-governmental "militia" equipped, and funded by Iran specifically to fight Israel. It refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and Israel's elimination is one of its primary objectives.

Lebanese Hezbollah's routine direction starts with Iran's Supreme Leader through the Quds Force Commander and does not pass through any Lebanese civilian or military government officials/organizations before reaching Hezbollah Secretary General Nasrallah. The Lebanese Hezbollah remains the most reliable and loyal of many of Iran's surrogates and proxies.

[ColinC]

74. This is a generally informative post and I appreciate you for sharing it

[24601]

75. Glad to help keep the dialog going. Sorry it too so long to post - after composing a draft, I removed information for

which I couldn't find a publicly available source.

[ColinC]

76. No worries! I wish people took the time to be more informed about how this stuff works

The crass generalizations (ie “they’re all terrorists!!”)do us no good. While they are certainly designated by most western countries as such, I see Lebanon is one of the more thriving regions in the Middle East, and the vast majority of people living there certainly don’t deserve what’s happened to them. We also have a large Lebanese American community in this country (particularly in Michigan) whose motivation to vote will likely be heavily impacted by these events.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

33. Really?

You have a link to this claim?

[ColinC]

38. I don't. That's just the assumption I made from the 3,000 injured.

I welcome any information that disputes this assumption

[MarineCombatEngineer]

40. See post #39. nt.

[ColinC]

49. From the AP

The second wave also deepens concern over the potentially indiscriminate casualties caused in the attacks, in which hundreds of blasts went off wherever the holder of the pager happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes, often with family or bystanders nearby.

While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the group’s extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community.

[Beastly Boy]

61. How does any of it confirm your assumptions?

"potentially indiscriminate casualties", "wherever the holder of the pager happened to be", "no guarantee who was holding the device", "many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters", "mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community."

All speculaion and conjecture, None quantified or confirmed. Zero identical speculation and conjecture regarding Hezbollah fighters, whose numbers are "potentially" much higher by far than all of the above put together.

You have no grounds to make any assumptions.

[ColinC]

62. 2 dead were healthcare workers and 2 were children

All of these people were likely holding pagers. That’s 33% of the people killed. You are suggesting that only Hezbollah militants were targeted. There is no evidence that was the case.

[Beastly Boy]

65. There is no evidence for anything. Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence to the contrary.

Your view is, and i quote: "In my view Hezbollah was a tiny minority of the people injured by those explosions".

And the only thing I suggested was that the pagers were intended for the exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives, as per Nasrallah's orders, as was reported by the media. I never commented on whether they were all used as intended. But it is highly improbable that only a tiny minority of them were.

[ColinC]

66. I don't understand your reference to Nasrallah (or what they are)

I look forward to learning more about what you mean in my free time.

Thanks for the discussion!

[Beastly Boy]

67. He is the dude who gives orders. Link inside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

57. Battle of Derna in 1805?

"...to the shores of Tripoli ..." and all that.

It was not "unjustified", but it was an invasion.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

59. Point taken.

[Beastly Boy]

60. Do you also know that if the pagers were not exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives

with orders from Nasrallah to only use the pagers to communicate between them with no regard to how heavily or lightly civilian areas the militants chose to operated in may be, this would not have happened?

Do you know that if it weren't for Nasrallah's orders, Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border, this would not have happened?

I do.

[DiamondShark]

70. Given the circumstances...

And your previous comments about speculation...

Would you please provide a link to backup your claims?

[Beastly Boy]

72. With pleasure

As per a Hezbollah official:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hezbollah-official-exploded-pagers-were-a-new-brand-replaced-cellphones-at-nasrallahs-order/

[DiamondShark]

82. I will try to be more specific...

Beastly Boy
Do you also know that if the pagers were not exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives...
with orders from Nasrallah to only use the pagers to communicate between them with no regard to how heavily or lightly civilian areas the militants chose to operated in may be, this would not have happened?

How do we know the pagers were "exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives?"

Do you know that if it weren't for Nasrallah's orders, Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border, this would not have happened?

How do we know that "Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border?"

I must be missing something in the context of your speculation. The article does not mention these things.

[Beastly Boy]

85. The circmstances surrounding the purchase and distribution of the pagers, according to the Heabollah source:

"...were apparently acquired by Hezbollah after the terror group’s leader ordered members in February to stop using cellphones, warning they could be tracked by Israeli intelligence."

They friggin told us, in no uncertain terms.

And since it was Hezbollah members, and no one else, who were ordered to use the pagers purchased by Hezbollah, we know that an overwhelming majority of the casualties must have been the intended users of the said pagers, i.e. the aforementioned "members" and no one else.

The current number of casualties from exploding pagers hovers around 3000, which is equivalent to the number of troops in a US brigade. So, with my apologies, I am taking back "division's worth" in favor of "brigade's worth". I trust that the bit about them all being disabled in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border requires no further elaboration.

[DiamondShark]

86. As long as we are still speculating...

So, with my apologies, I am taking back "division's worth" in favor of "brigade's worth"

I had not realized war had been declared. You do have a link to back this up, correct?

[Beastly Boy]

87. I am not sure what you want me to back up or what a declaration of war has to do with it.

But in case my hunch is right, here's the reference:


No speculating about that.

[DiamondShark]

88. Yeah, I'm lost.

You are using military terms for a conflict with no war declared. Are you sure that is the correct terminology to use? You first said a "division's worth" now it's a "brigade's worth." Is there a war or not? If not, why are you using military terms to describe casualties?

[Beastly Boy]

89. A military unit doesn't gain or lose its designation whether there us war or not.

The state of war is especially irrelevant when a reference to a military unit is used as I did: brigade's worth. This means I am not referring to an actual existing brigade but the number of combatants approximating the number of combatants in a brigade. And that number doesn't change whether any particular brigade is at war or not. Nor does it refer to casualties. Just as a gallon of gasoline is still a gallon of gasoline whether it is the amount of gasoline you have used today, or the amount of gasoline in the tank of your car, or the amount of gasoline at the refinery.

Brigade's worth, according to the chart I provided, equals to 2000 - 5000 troops. When the number of casualties is referred to as "brigade's worth", it refers to 2000 - 5000 casualties. It's their number, not their condition, not their location and not the state of their engagement.

I was under the impression that this number of troops would be equivalent to a division's worth (not a reference to any actual division, just the number of troops), but I was mistaken, and I corrected the error.

[DiamondShark]

90. Interesting...

Do you have that link requested regarding a war being declared? or...

[Beastly Boy]

91. Why do yoiu keep asking for a link to something that

a) is irrelevant to anything I posted,

b) was never mentioned by me, and

c) being irrelevant to anything I posted and being never mentioned by me, you know does not exist?

Just to show me how awkward you can get in building a strawman?

No need, I saw it coming before you started.

[DiamondShark]

92. I don't know why you keep avoiding the war question...

You have on multiple occasions used military terms. I thought we were talking about war.

When you use military terms to describe the casualties, is that not related to war?

[Beastly Boy]

93. What Is Straw Man Fallacy? Definition & Example

Straw man fallacy is the distortion of someone else’s argument to make it easier to attack or refute. Instead of addressing the actual argument of the opponent, one may present a somewhat similar but not equal argument.

By placing it in the opponent’s mouth and then attacking that version of the argument, one is essentially refuting an argument that is different from the one under discussion.

https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/straw-man-fallacy/#:~:text=Straw%20man%20fallacy%20is%20the%20distortion%20of%20someone,present%20a%20somewhat%20similar%20but%20not%20equal%20argument.

Straw man fallacy example:

Person 1: Israel disabled a brigade's worth of terrorists

Person 2: Brigade is a military term. Explain why you are using it when the war between Israel and the terrorists hasn't been declared?

Person 1: ...WTF??? (eye roll)

The straw man fallacy can be used to distract from relevant arguments in different contexts, such as in political debates, in the media, as well as in everyday discussions. It is also known as the straw man argument.

This conversation is over. Enjoy your day!

[DiamondShark]

94. You got it right with person one.

Straw man fallacy example:

Person 1: Israel disabled a brigade's worth of terrorists

You still haven't provided the link to your claims.

[EX500rider]

95. "Is there a war or not?"

If a militia in Mexico fired thousands of rockets at US towns, we would be at war with them instantly.
JDAM's & Reapers would be inbound on the same day, that sure sounds like a war.

[DiamondShark]

96. Right...

And detonating bombs in a foreign city would be...

[EX500rider]

97. A act of war usually unless some type of lone wolf terrorists op

But since Hezbollah has sent thousands of flying bombs across the border into Israel I'd say they are at war with Israel

[ColinC]

16. Your justification is also Al Qaedas justification for 9/11

“If the US had not invaded Muslim territories, this would not have happened.”

It is a terroristic explanation for terror and we shouldn’t spread it.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

22. See post #21. nt

[Beastly Boy]

51. The means used to inflict injuries were military assets intended for exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives.

This is absolutely a legitimate targeting of the other military asset of the enemy, Hezbollah fighters.

If you are in the least bit interested what the law says about civilians in this situation, refer to Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

It basically says, and I paraphrase, "Terrorism my ass!"

[Srkdqltr]

3. So these pagers were ordered from a reputable company in Taiwan, sent to Lebanon to Hezbollah where did the explosives

Get installed? At Taiwan? Or when they got to Lebanon? Were they stopped at some point before delivery , tampered with and no-one noticed?

[Srkdqltr]

6. Took time to Open each and every one.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

7. Mossad is patient

[Srkdqltr]

9. What does that mean? That doesn't come close to what i asked.

[Beastly Boy]

63. How long does it take for a ship to sail from Taiwan to the mediterranian sea?

In international waters...

Hmmm...

[Polybius]

8. Probably in between, as in the shipment was intercepted

At least that's how I took it from the article.

The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials.

[Srkdqltr]

11. So the company sent them to someplace? where someone? put the stuff in and sent them to Lebanon

And no one wondered? why did it take longer? And go somewhere else first? Very strange.

[Polybius]

18. Perhaps the Mossad intercepted the packages when they were on route

It already takes a while for a package to get from Taiwan to Lebanon, so probably the few days or so wasn't noticed.

[sarisataka]

20. What is the delivery window on an order for 3000 pagers

2 weeks? a month? "Sorry there has been a delay in shipping your order, it will take 10 extra days to arrive."

[FakeNoose]

26. It was a long ride on the cargo ship

Israeli techs worked efficiently en route. I don't know, I'm just spit ballin' here.

[Turbineguy]

77. Cargo containers can be on several ships before reaching its final destination.

Containers would be at transit hubs for several days. Leaving Taiwan, the containers would be on large linehaul carriers. Then they would be transferred to small feeder ships for the final delivery to Beirut.

[Eugene]

10. Lots of middlemen leading to gray market customer give many openings to a "supply chain attack."

Insiders could have switched out the pagers (and now also walkie talkies)
anywhere in the supply chain, the warehouses, the distributors,
the shippers.

This isn't the first time the Mossad has boobytrapped a mobile device.
Only the scale is new.

[moreland01]

5. It's amazing how

warfare has changed technologically. We really don't need hand to hand combat any longer. Drones and now pagers? Wondering what they're teaching at West Point these days?

[RussBLib]

37. Indeed. Do we need tanks?

...billion-dollar planes? Except to feed the congressional/military/industrial complex?

Everything changes. Military has to change, and we'd better figure out how to protect satellites in orbit, unless that's about to radically change too

https://russblib.blogspot.com/?m=1

[Hekate]

14. TY for the gift link

[Mysterian]

15. Did hezbollah get a discount?

Or did they pay full price?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

23. And are they now demanding a full refund?

[RussBLib]

24. That's some dark humor

...but these are pretty dark times, considering.

https://russblib.blogspot.com/?m=1

[JoseBalow]

44. They're gonna leave a bad review

[Beringia]

43. Frontline workers described hellish scenes: victims of thousands of small explosions

From Reuters

Tuesday's attack wounded many of the militant group's fighters and Iran's envoy to Beirut.

Frontline workers described hellish scenes: victims of thousands of small explosions linked to pagers used by Hezbollah rushed into hospitals, some with organs protruding, others with missing eyes or fingers.

The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk called for an independent investigation into the events surrounding exploding pagers.

The United Nations Security Council will meet on Friday over the pager blasts after a request from Algeria on behalf of Arab states, said Slovenia's U.N. Ambassador Samuel Zbogar, president of the 15-member council for September.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/