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RussBLib

(9,709 posts)
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:25 AM Sep 2024

Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say

Source: New York Times

Didn't seethis here yet. Gifted article.

Small amounts of explosive were implanted in beepers that Hezbollah had ordered from a Taiwanese company, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.

Israel carried out its operation against Hezbollah on Tuesday by hiding explosive material within a new batch of Taiwanese-made pagers imported into Lebanon, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.

The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. Most were the company’s AR924 model, though three other Gold Apollo models were also included i

Read more: Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Lk4.3slq.xGPD51IyCmgT



Didn't see this here yet. Gifted article.
97 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say (Original Post) RussBLib Sep 2024 OP
Up to 3,000 people have been injured ColinC Sep 2024 #1
I suppose RussBLib Sep 2024 #2
Yep ColinC Sep 2024 #4
Harmed by communications devices intended and distribured by Hezbollah for the exclusive use of its operatives. Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author DiamondShark Sep 2024 #68
If the terrorist group Hezbollah had not been firing missiles into Israel at civilians, former9thward Sep 2024 #12
I don't know that. But I do know if pagers were not laced with explosives and exploded in heavily civilian areas ColinC Sep 2024 #13
Which leads back to the fact the if Hizbollah hadn't been firing missiles into Israel, MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #17
Sounds eerily like "if the US did not invade Muslim territories, 9/11 would not have happened" ColinC Sep 2024 #19
We invaded Muslim territories before 9/11? MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #21
Regardless of the semantics, he did it because of specific military actions that he felt warranted it ColinC Sep 2024 #25
Regardless of the semantics? MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #27
Kuwait was an invasion, and among those referenced by Bin Laden for his war against the US ColinC Sep 2024 #28
Desert Storm, which I participated in, was a operation to liberate a Muslim MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #31
Semantics... sarisataka Sep 2024 #34
Oh no I agree with you. Bin Laden didn't. ColinC Sep 2024 #35
Well that makes no sense... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #69
You do know that Desert Shield/Desert Storm was before the 9/11 attacks don't you? MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #71
Still, doesn't make sense considering the context... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #78
Ok, and...........? MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #79
I guess we will never know... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #80
Fair enough, although, I still don't get it. MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #81
Agreed. DiamondShark Sep 2024 #83
Quite the conundrum I agree. nt MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #84
Bombing civilians with pagers? sarisataka Sep 2024 #29
In my view Hezbollah was a tiny minority of the people injured by those explosions. ColinC Sep 2024 #30
Not according to Lebanese media, government and Hezbollah sarisataka Sep 2024 #32
Perhaps my view is incorrect. Do you have a link? ColinC Sep 2024 #36
CNN video report from the American University of Beirut Medical Center sarisataka Sep 2024 #39
Thank you! Although I am interested mostly in the identities of the 2800 injuries ColinC Sep 2024 #41
No one in Lebanon, including Hezbollah is claiming many civilian casulaties sarisataka Sep 2024 #42
I am claiming civilians were majority of those injured. Not killed. ColinC Sep 2024 #45
No. nt MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #46
So then who were the 2800 injured? You are telling me the vast majority were Hezbollah? ColinC Sep 2024 #47
No, do the math sarisataka Sep 2024 #48
So far two of the 12 people were children killed ColinC Sep 2024 #50
I am glad we agree on a high level of discrimination sarisataka Sep 2024 #52
Civilians working for Hezbollah linked organizations are civilians. ColinC Sep 2024 #53
Point of fact- in the 9/11 attacks sarisataka Sep 2024 #54
I recc'd this post because I appreciate the consistency of your argument ColinC Sep 2024 #56
We argee to disagree- fair enough sarisataka Sep 2024 #58
We do! And I have no faith that any of these issues can be resolved unless she is elected ColinC Sep 2024 #64
Terrorists working within Hezbollah also are civilians. While Hezbollah has politicians who are elected to and 24601 Sep 2024 #73
This is a generally informative post and I appreciate you for sharing it ColinC Sep 2024 #74
Glad to help keep the dialog going. Sorry it too so long to post - after composing a draft, I removed information for 24601 Sep 2024 #75
No worries! I wish people took the time to be more informed about how this stuff works ColinC Sep 2024 #76
Really? MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #33
I don't. That's just the assumption I made from the 3,000 injured. ColinC Sep 2024 #38
See post #39. nt. MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #40
From the AP ColinC Sep 2024 #49
How does any of it confirm your assumptions? Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #61
2 dead were healthcare workers and 2 were children ColinC Sep 2024 #62
There is no evidence for anything. Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence to the contrary. Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #65
I don't understand your reference to Nasrallah (or what they are) ColinC Sep 2024 #66
He is the dude who gives orders. Link inside. Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #67
Battle of Derna in 1805? JustABozoOnThisBus Sep 2024 #57
Point taken. MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #59
Do you also know that if the pagers were not exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #60
Given the circumstances... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #70
With pleasure Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #72
I will try to be more specific... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #82
The circmstances surrounding the purchase and distribution of the pagers, according to the Heabollah source: Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #85
As long as we are still speculating... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #86
I am not sure what you want me to back up or what a declaration of war has to do with it. Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #87
Yeah, I'm lost. DiamondShark Sep 2024 #88
A military unit doesn't gain or lose its designation whether there us war or not. Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #89
Interesting... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #90
Why do yoiu keep asking for a link to something that Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #91
I don't know why you keep avoiding the war question... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #92
What Is Straw Man Fallacy? Definition & Example Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #93
You got it right with person one. DiamondShark Sep 2024 #94
"Is there a war or not?" EX500rider Sep 2024 #95
Right... DiamondShark Sep 2024 #96
A act of war usually unless some type of lone wolf terrorists op EX500rider Sep 2024 #97
Your justification is also Al Qaedas justification for 9/11 ColinC Sep 2024 #16
See post #21. nt MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #22
The means used to inflict injuries were military assets intended for exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives. Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #51
So these pagers were ordered from a reputable company in Taiwan, sent to Lebanon to Hezbollah where did the explosives Srkdqltr Sep 2024 #3
Took time to Open each and every one. Srkdqltr Sep 2024 #6
Mossad is patient AZSkiffyGeek Sep 2024 #7
What does that mean? That doesn't come close to what i asked. Srkdqltr Sep 2024 #9
How long does it take for a ship to sail from Taiwan to the mediterranian sea? Beastly Boy Sep 2024 #63
Probably in between, as in the shipment was intercepted Polybius Sep 2024 #8
So the company sent them to someplace? where someone? put the stuff in and sent them to Lebanon Srkdqltr Sep 2024 #11
Perhaps the Mossad intercepted the packages when they were on route Polybius Sep 2024 #18
What is the delivery window on an order for 3000 pagers sarisataka Sep 2024 #20
It was a long ride on the cargo ship FakeNoose Sep 2024 #26
Cargo containers can be on several ships before reaching its final destination. Turbineguy Sep 2024 #77
Lots of middlemen leading to gray market customer give many openings to a "supply chain attack." Eugene Sep 2024 #10
It's amazing how moreland01 Sep 2024 #5
Indeed. Do we need tanks? RussBLib Sep 2024 #37
TY for the gift link Hekate Sep 2024 #14
Did hezbollah get a discount? Mysterian Sep 2024 #15
And are they now demanding a full refund? MarineCombatEngineer Sep 2024 #23
That's some dark humor RussBLib Sep 2024 #24
They're gonna leave a bad review JoseBalow Sep 2024 #44
Frontline workers described hellish scenes: victims of thousands of small explosions Beringia Sep 2024 #43

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
1. Up to 3,000 people have been injured
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:35 AM
Sep 2024

Something tells me they weren’t all Hezbollah, and this is essentially a terrorist attack.

RussBLib

(9,709 posts)
2. I suppose
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:37 AM
Sep 2024

...it is not as indiscriminate as a 1,000lb bomb, but no doubt some innocent people were harmed, or worse.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
55. Harmed by communications devices intended and distribured by Hezbollah for the exclusive use of its operatives.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:15 PM
Sep 2024

Who will sue Hezbollah or its members for gross negligence? By accepting the beepers, those men (and I would bet a seven dollar bill on them being overwhelmingly men fit for military service) accepted the risks of being targeted. If they spread this risk on unsuspecting bystanders, they will have to account for that.

Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #55)

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
12. If the terrorist group Hezbollah had not been firing missiles into Israel at civilians,
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:19 AM
Sep 2024

no one would have been injured.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
13. I don't know that. But I do know if pagers were not laced with explosives and exploded in heavily civilian areas
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:23 AM
Sep 2024

This would not have happened

MarineCombatEngineer

(14,466 posts)
17. Which leads back to the fact the if Hizbollah hadn't been firing missiles into Israel,
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:50 AM
Sep 2024

this would not have happened.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
19. Sounds eerily like "if the US did not invade Muslim territories, 9/11 would not have happened"
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:52 AM
Sep 2024

That was Al Qaedas reason for 9/11. It is a terroristic justification for terror and killing civilians.

MarineCombatEngineer

(14,466 posts)
21. We invaded Muslim territories before 9/11?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:59 AM
Sep 2024

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:03 PM - Edit history (1)

When did that happen?
I seem to remember that the invasions happened after 9/11.

MarineCombatEngineer

(14,466 posts)
27. Regardless of the semantics?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:15 PM
Sep 2024

So you admit you were wrong?
And Israel didn't "bomb" civilians with pagers, this was a targeted attack on the C&C systems of Hizbollah which is a legitimate target in wartime, at least Israel tried to limit the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike Hizbollah, which intentionally targets Israeli civilians.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
28. Kuwait was an invasion, and among those referenced by Bin Laden for his war against the US
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:17 PM
Sep 2024

The pagers blew up in heavily civilian areas. That qualifies as bombing civilians.

MarineCombatEngineer

(14,466 posts)
31. Desert Storm, which I participated in, was a operation to liberate a Muslim
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:23 PM
Sep 2024

country invaded by Iraq, and we were invited in by Saudi Arabia, which pissed off Bin Laden who condemned SA when they turned him down on raising an Army to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
BTW, we were part of a coalition, including Muslim countries that participated to expel Iraq.
Try to get your "facts" correct.

MarineCombatEngineer

(14,466 posts)
71. You do know that Desert Shield/Desert Storm was before the 9/11 attacks don't you?
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 06:50 AM
Sep 2024

Desert Shield/Desert Storm was in 90-91 while the 9/11 attacks were in 2001, so I don't understand what your post has to do with Desert Storm.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
78. Still, doesn't make sense considering the context...
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 08:57 AM
Sep 2024
MarineCombatEngineer
Desert Storm, which I participated in, was a operation to liberate a Muslim...
country invaded by Iraq, and we were invited in by Saudi Arabia, which pissed off Bin Laden who condemned SA when they turned him down on raising an Army to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
BTW, we were part of a coalition, including Muslim countries that participated to expel Iraq.
Try to get your "facts" correct.


There must be more to the story that is being left out.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
80. I guess we will never know...
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 09:11 AM
Sep 2024

Why Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia worked together on 9-11 to bring down the twin towers. Unless there is more that is being left out regarding Desert Storm. Hence the direct quote.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
83. Agreed.
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 09:19 AM
Sep 2024

I am still trying to understand how Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia were enemies in 90-91, but then the majority of the 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
29. Bombing civilians with pagers?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:19 PM
Sep 2024

Am I correct that in your view Hezbollah are civilians?

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
30. In my view Hezbollah was a tiny minority of the people injured by those explosions.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:20 PM
Sep 2024

Lebanese civilians took the brunt of the injuries.

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
32. Not according to Lebanese media, government and Hezbollah
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:23 PM
Sep 2024

who are stating the "vast majority" were Hezbollah.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
41. Thank you! Although I am interested mostly in the identities of the 2800 injuries
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:46 PM
Sep 2024

It seems improbable that all of them were Hezbollah. One video I saw went off in a grocery store -that alone may have injured a few dozen civilians in that instance.

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
42. No one in Lebanon, including Hezbollah is claiming many civilian casulaties
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:50 PM
Sep 2024

The number is not zero, unfortunately, but appears to be very low. I saw one video of a man standing within a foot of another when the pager exploded, the bystander was uninjured.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
45. I am claiming civilians were majority of those injured. Not killed.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:22 PM
Sep 2024

14 people were killed. I would imagine those were the people that were specifically targeted. Injuries would have been people around them. It is reasonable to assume the vast majority of injuries were civilians, no?

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
47. So then who were the 2800 injured? You are telling me the vast majority were Hezbollah?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:42 PM
Sep 2024

When each explosion occurred isolated from other Hezbollah members?

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
48. No, do the math
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:44 PM
Sep 2024

Given the amount of explosive (very small- it had to fit into a pager) the pager would have to be on or very near its target.

Hezbollah ordered 3000 pagers. The total killed and wounded is 2700-2800. Those numbers are very close. If there were 6,000-7,000 injured you might have a case.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
50. So far two of the 12 people were children killed
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:46 PM
Sep 2024

2 were healthcare workers.


That already shows a high level of in discrimination in the attacks even if the majority killed were militants (which we now know probably were not)

The second wave also deepens concern over the potentially indiscriminate casualties caused in the attacks, in which hundreds of blasts went off wherever the holder of the pager happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes, often with family or bystanders nearby.

While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the group’s extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community.

At least two health workers were among those killed Tuesday. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers.



https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
52. I am glad we agree on a high level of discrimination
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:01 PM
Sep 2024

The fatality rate is less than .5%

Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations
emphasis added
If one chooses to work for a terrorist organization, one is accepting some risks come with such a choice.

Also as we have seen, the line between doctors/journalist/teacher/UN employee and active terrorist participant is quite permeable

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
53. Civilians working for Hezbollah linked organizations are civilians.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:08 PM
Sep 2024

And the services they provide are necessary for Lebanese society to exist. Pointing out that they were linked to Hezbollah is a distinction without a difference. We are discussing civilian casualties and injuries. Not whether or not the civilians might have been linked to Hezbollah. Children were “linked” to Hezbollah too -often as family members. Does that mean it was right to kill them?

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
54. Point of fact- in the 9/11 attacks
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:14 PM
Sep 2024

I do not begrudge the selection of the Pentagon as a target. It is a military center even though thousands of civilians work there. What made that specific attack terrorist was the use of a civilian airliner as the means of attack

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
56. I recc'd this post because I appreciate the consistency of your argument
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:18 PM
Sep 2024

But I thoroughly disagree with the legitimacy of the attacks entirely. The Pentagon might have been a military target but (I think) it is largely civilians who worked there, and the vast majority killed would likely be civilians.

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
58. We argee to disagree- fair enough
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:30 PM
Sep 2024

I appreciate the discussion

As long as we both vote for Harris/Walz I think we can socialize together.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
64. We do! And I have no faith that any of these issues can be resolved unless she is elected
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:57 PM
Sep 2024

And I have enormous faith in her and her team.

Thank you for the discussion as well!!

24601

(4,030 posts)
73. Terrorists working within Hezbollah also are civilians. While Hezbollah has politicians who are elected to and
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 08:10 AM
Sep 2024

participate in the Parliament's coalitions, their military wing, is not part of the nation's armed forces. They are a non-governmental "militia" equipped, and funded by Iran specifically to fight Israel. It refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and Israel's elimination is one of its primary objectives.

Lebanese Hezbollah's routine direction starts with Iran's Supreme Leader through the Quds Force Commander and does not pass through any Lebanese civilian or military government officials/organizations before reaching Hezbollah Secretary General Nasrallah. The Lebanese Hezbollah remains the most reliable and loyal of many of Iran's surrogates and proxies.

24601

(4,030 posts)
75. Glad to help keep the dialog going. Sorry it too so long to post - after composing a draft, I removed information for
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 08:25 AM
Sep 2024

which I couldn't find a publicly available source.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
76. No worries! I wish people took the time to be more informed about how this stuff works
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 08:32 AM
Sep 2024

The crass generalizations (ie “they’re all terrorists!!”)do us no good. While they are certainly designated by most western countries as such, I see Lebanon is one of the more thriving regions in the Middle East, and the vast majority of people living there certainly don’t deserve what’s happened to them. We also have a large Lebanese American community in this country (particularly in Michigan) whose motivation to vote will likely be heavily impacted by these events.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
38. I don't. That's just the assumption I made from the 3,000 injured.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:28 PM
Sep 2024

I welcome any information that disputes this assumption

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
49. From the AP
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:45 PM
Sep 2024
The second wave also deepens concern over the potentially indiscriminate casualties caused in the attacks, in which hundreds of blasts went off wherever the holder of the pager happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes, often with family or bystanders nearby.

While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the group’s extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
61. How does any of it confirm your assumptions?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:48 PM
Sep 2024

"potentially indiscriminate casualties", "wherever the holder of the pager happened to be", "no guarantee who was holding the device", "many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters", "mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community."

All speculaion and conjecture, None quantified or confirmed. Zero identical speculation and conjecture regarding Hezbollah fighters, whose numbers are "potentially" much higher by far than all of the above put together.

You have no grounds to make any assumptions.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
62. 2 dead were healthcare workers and 2 were children
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:54 PM
Sep 2024

All of these people were likely holding pagers. That’s 33% of the people killed. You are suggesting that only Hezbollah militants were targeted. There is no evidence that was the case.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
65. There is no evidence for anything. Absence of evidence does not constitute evidence to the contrary.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 04:07 PM
Sep 2024

Your view is, and i quote: "In my view Hezbollah was a tiny minority of the people injured by those explosions".

And the only thing I suggested was that the pagers were intended for the exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives, as per Nasrallah's orders, as was reported by the media. I never commented on whether they were all used as intended. But it is highly improbable that only a tiny minority of them were.

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
66. I don't understand your reference to Nasrallah (or what they are)
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 04:16 PM
Sep 2024

I look forward to learning more about what you mean in my free time.

Thanks for the discussion!

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,825 posts)
57. Battle of Derna in 1805?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 02:23 PM
Sep 2024

"...to the shores of Tripoli ..." and all that.

It was not "unjustified", but it was an invasion.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
60. Do you also know that if the pagers were not exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:31 PM
Sep 2024

with orders from Nasrallah to only use the pagers to communicate between them with no regard to how heavily or lightly civilian areas the militants chose to operated in may be, this would not have happened?

Do you know that if it weren't for Nasrallah's orders, Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border, this would not have happened?

I do.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
70. Given the circumstances...
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 04:02 AM
Sep 2024

And your previous comments about speculation...

Would you please provide a link to backup your claims?

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
82. I will try to be more specific...
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 09:18 AM
Sep 2024
Beastly Boy
Do you also know that if the pagers were not exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives...
with orders from Nasrallah to only use the pagers to communicate between them with no regard to how heavily or lightly civilian areas the militants chose to operated in may be, this would not have happened?

How do we know the pagers were "exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives?"
Do you know that if it weren't for Nasrallah's orders, Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border, this would not have happened?

How do we know that "Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border?"

I must be missing something in the context of your speculation. The article does not mention these things.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
85. The circmstances surrounding the purchase and distribution of the pagers, according to the Heabollah source:
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 10:52 AM
Sep 2024

"...were apparently acquired by Hezbollah after the terror group’s leader ordered members in February to stop using cellphones, warning they could be tracked by Israeli intelligence."

They friggin told us, in no uncertain terms.

And since it was Hezbollah members, and no one else, who were ordered to use the pagers purchased by Hezbollah, we know that an overwhelming majority of the casualties must have been the intended users of the said pagers, i.e. the aforementioned "members" and no one else.

The current number of casualties from exploding pagers hovers around 3000, which is equivalent to the number of troops in a US brigade. So, with my apologies, I am taking back "division's worth" in favor of "brigade's worth". I trust that the bit about them all being disabled in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border requires no further elaboration.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
86. As long as we are still speculating...
Sat Sep 21, 2024, 02:22 PM
Sep 2024
So, with my apologies, I am taking back "division's worth" in favor of "brigade's worth"


I had not realized war had been declared. You do have a link to back this up, correct?

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
87. I am not sure what you want me to back up or what a declaration of war has to do with it.
Sat Sep 21, 2024, 03:46 PM
Sep 2024

But in case my hunch is right, here's the reference:


No speculating about that.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
88. Yeah, I'm lost.
Sat Sep 21, 2024, 07:57 PM
Sep 2024

You are using military terms for a conflict with no war declared. Are you sure that is the correct terminology to use? You first said a "division's worth" now it's a "brigade's worth." Is there a war or not? If not, why are you using military terms to describe casualties?

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
89. A military unit doesn't gain or lose its designation whether there us war or not.
Sat Sep 21, 2024, 08:35 PM
Sep 2024

The state of war is especially irrelevant when a reference to a military unit is used as I did: brigade's worth. This means I am not referring to an actual existing brigade but the number of combatants approximating the number of combatants in a brigade. And that number doesn't change whether any particular brigade is at war or not. Nor does it refer to casualties. Just as a gallon of gasoline is still a gallon of gasoline whether it is the amount of gasoline you have used today, or the amount of gasoline in the tank of your car, or the amount of gasoline at the refinery.

Brigade's worth, according to the chart I provided, equals to 2000 - 5000 troops. When the number of casualties is referred to as "brigade's worth", it refers to 2000 - 5000 casualties. It's their number, not their condition, not their location and not the state of their engagement.

I was under the impression that this number of troops would be equivalent to a division's worth (not a reference to any actual division, just the number of troops), but I was mistaken, and I corrected the error.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
91. Why do yoiu keep asking for a link to something that
Sat Sep 21, 2024, 10:32 PM
Sep 2024

a) is irrelevant to anything I posted,

b) was never mentioned by me, and

c) being irrelevant to anything I posted and being never mentioned by me, you know does not exist?

Just to show me how awkward you can get in building a strawman?

No need, I saw it coming before you started.

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
92. I don't know why you keep avoiding the war question...
Sun Sep 22, 2024, 12:15 AM
Sep 2024

You have on multiple occasions used military terms. I thought we were talking about war.

When you use military terms to describe the casualties, is that not related to war?

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
93. What Is Straw Man Fallacy? Definition & Example
Sun Sep 22, 2024, 05:58 AM
Sep 2024
Straw man fallacy is the distortion of someone else’s argument to make it easier to attack or refute. Instead of addressing the actual argument of the opponent, one may present a somewhat similar but not equal argument.

By placing it in the opponent’s mouth and then attacking that version of the argument, one is essentially refuting an argument that is different from the one under discussion.
https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/straw-man-fallacy/#:~:text=Straw%20man%20fallacy%20is%20the%20distortion%20of%20someone,present%20a%20somewhat%20similar%20but%20not%20equal%20argument.

Straw man fallacy example:

Person 1: Israel disabled a brigade's worth of terrorists

Person 2: Brigade is a military term. Explain why you are using it when the war between Israel and the terrorists hasn't been declared?

Person 1: ...WTF??? (eye roll)

The straw man fallacy can be used to distract from relevant arguments in different contexts, such as in political debates, in the media, as well as in everyday discussions. It is also known as the straw man argument.


This conversation is over. Enjoy your day!

DiamondShark

(1,115 posts)
94. You got it right with person one.
Sun Sep 22, 2024, 06:14 AM
Sep 2024
Straw man fallacy example:

Person 1: Israel disabled a brigade's worth of terrorists


You still haven't provided the link to your claims.

EX500rider

(11,548 posts)
95. "Is there a war or not?"
Sun Sep 22, 2024, 10:00 AM
Sep 2024

If a militia in Mexico fired thousands of rockets at US towns, we would be at war with them instantly.
JDAM's & Reapers would be inbound on the same day, that sure sounds like a war.

EX500rider

(11,548 posts)
97. A act of war usually unless some type of lone wolf terrorists op
Sun Sep 22, 2024, 02:08 PM
Sep 2024

But since Hezbollah has sent thousands of flying bombs across the border into Israel I'd say they are at war with Israel

ColinC

(10,945 posts)
16. Your justification is also Al Qaedas justification for 9/11
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:49 AM
Sep 2024

“If the US had not invaded Muslim territories, this would not have happened.”

It is a terroristic explanation for terror and we shouldn’t spread it.

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
51. The means used to inflict injuries were military assets intended for exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives.
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:55 PM
Sep 2024

This is absolutely a legitimate targeting of the other military asset of the enemy, Hezbollah fighters.

If you are in the least bit interested what the law says about civilians in this situation, refer to Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

It basically says, and I paraphrase, "Terrorism my ass!"

Srkdqltr

(7,775 posts)
3. So these pagers were ordered from a reputable company in Taiwan, sent to Lebanon to Hezbollah where did the explosives
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:39 AM
Sep 2024

Get installed? At Taiwan? Or when they got to Lebanon? Were they stopped at some point before delivery , tampered with and no-one noticed?

Beastly Boy

(11,312 posts)
63. How long does it take for a ship to sail from Taiwan to the mediterranian sea?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:56 PM
Sep 2024

In international waters...

Hmmm...

Polybius

(18,365 posts)
8. Probably in between, as in the shipment was intercepted
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:47 AM
Sep 2024

At least that's how I took it from the article.

The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials.

Srkdqltr

(7,775 posts)
11. So the company sent them to someplace? where someone? put the stuff in and sent them to Lebanon
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:03 AM
Sep 2024

And no one wondered? why did it take longer? And go somewhere else first? Very strange.

Polybius

(18,365 posts)
18. Perhaps the Mossad intercepted the packages when they were on route
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:51 AM
Sep 2024

It already takes a while for a package to get from Taiwan to Lebanon, so probably the few days or so wasn't noticed.

sarisataka

(21,283 posts)
20. What is the delivery window on an order for 3000 pagers
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:54 AM
Sep 2024

2 weeks? a month? "Sorry there has been a delay in shipping your order, it will take 10 extra days to arrive."

FakeNoose

(36,005 posts)
26. It was a long ride on the cargo ship
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:11 PM
Sep 2024

Israeli techs worked efficiently en route. I don't know, I'm just spit ballin' here.

Turbineguy

(38,505 posts)
77. Cargo containers can be on several ships before reaching its final destination.
Thu Sep 19, 2024, 08:39 AM
Sep 2024

Containers would be at transit hubs for several days. Leaving Taiwan, the containers would be on large linehaul carriers. Then they would be transferred to small feeder ships for the final delivery to Beirut.

Eugene

(62,775 posts)
10. Lots of middlemen leading to gray market customer give many openings to a "supply chain attack."
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:01 AM
Sep 2024

Insiders could have switched out the pagers (and now also walkie talkies)
anywhere in the supply chain, the warehouses, the distributors,
the shippers.

This isn't the first time the Mossad has boobytrapped a mobile device.
Only the scale is new.

moreland01

(834 posts)
5. It's amazing how
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:40 AM
Sep 2024

warfare has changed technologically. We really don't need hand to hand combat any longer. Drones and now pagers? Wondering what they're teaching at West Point these days?

RussBLib

(9,709 posts)
37. Indeed. Do we need tanks?
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 12:28 PM
Sep 2024

...billion-dollar planes? Except to feed the congressional/military/industrial complex?

Everything changes. Military has to change, and we'd better figure out how to protect satellites in orbit, unless that's about to radically change too

https://russblib.blogspot.com/?m=1

Beringia

(4,655 posts)
43. Frontline workers described hellish scenes: victims of thousands of small explosions
Wed Sep 18, 2024, 01:10 PM
Sep 2024

From Reuters

Tuesday's attack wounded many of the militant group's fighters and Iran's envoy to Beirut.

Frontline workers described hellish scenes: victims of thousands of small explosions linked to pagers used by Hezbollah rushed into hospitals, some with organs protruding, others with missing eyes or fingers.

The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk called for an independent investigation into the events surrounding exploding pagers.

The United Nations Security Council will meet on Friday over the pager blasts after a request from Algeria on behalf of Arab states, said Slovenia's U.N. Ambassador Samuel Zbogar, president of the 15-member council for September.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/

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