Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say
Source: New York Times
Didn't seethis here yet. Gifted article.
Small amounts of explosive were implanted in beepers that Hezbollah had ordered from a Taiwanese company, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.
Israel carried out its operation against Hezbollah on Tuesday by hiding explosive material within a new batch of Taiwanese-made pagers imported into Lebanon, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.
The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. Most were the companys AR924 model, though three other Gold Apollo models were also included i
Read more: Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Lk4.3slq.xGPD51IyCmgT
Didn't see this here yet. Gifted article.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)Something tells me they werent all Hezbollah, and this is essentially a terrorist attack.
...it is not as indiscriminate as a 1,000lb bomb, but no doubt some innocent people were harmed, or worse.
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)Who will sue Hezbollah or its members for gross negligence? By accepting the beepers, those men (and I would bet a seven dollar bill on them being overwhelmingly men fit for military service) accepted the risks of being targeted. If they spread this risk on unsuspecting bystanders, they will have to account for that.
Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #55)
DiamondShark This message was self-deleted by its author.
former9thward
(33,424 posts)no one would have been injured.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)This would not have happened
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)this would not have happened.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)That was Al Qaedas reason for 9/11. It is a terroristic justification for terror and killing civilians.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 03:03 PM - Edit history (1)
When did that happen?
I seem to remember that the invasions happened after 9/11.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)Kinda like Israel basically bombing civilians with pagers.
https://1997-2001.state.gov/www/regions/sa/bin_laden_charges.html#:~:text=August%201996%20Declaration%20of%20War,of%20Jihad%20Against%20the%20Americans
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)So you admit you were wrong?
And Israel didn't "bomb" civilians with pagers, this was a targeted attack on the C&C systems of Hizbollah which is a legitimate target in wartime, at least Israel tried to limit the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike Hizbollah, which intentionally targets Israeli civilians.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)The pagers blew up in heavily civilian areas. That qualifies as bombing civilians.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)country invaded by Iraq, and we were invited in by Saudi Arabia, which pissed off Bin Laden who condemned SA when they turned him down on raising an Army to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
BTW, we were part of a coalition, including Muslim countries that participated to expel Iraq.
Try to get your "facts" correct.
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)ColinC
(10,853 posts)DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)Wasn't the majority of the 9-11 hijackers from Saudi Arabia?
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)Desert Shield/Desert Storm was in 90-91 while the 9/11 attacks were in 2001, so I don't understand what your post has to do with Desert Storm.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)Desert Storm, which I participated in, was a operation to liberate a Muslim...
country invaded by Iraq, and we were invited in by Saudi Arabia, which pissed off Bin Laden who condemned SA when they turned him down on raising an Army to expel Iraq from Kuwait.
BTW, we were part of a coalition, including Muslim countries that participated to expel Iraq.
Try to get your "facts" correct.
There must be more to the story that is being left out.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)I still don't understand what you're getting at.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)Why Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia worked together on 9-11 to bring down the twin towers. Unless there is more that is being left out regarding Desert Storm. Hence the direct quote.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)Peace out
Dan.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)I am still trying to understand how Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia were enemies in 90-91, but then the majority of the 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)sarisataka
(21,178 posts)Am I correct that in your view Hezbollah are civilians?
ColinC
(10,853 posts)Lebanese civilians took the brunt of the injuries.
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)who are stating the "vast majority" were Hezbollah.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)sarisataka
(21,178 posts)ColinC
(10,853 posts)It seems improbable that all of them were Hezbollah. One video I saw went off in a grocery store -that alone may have injured a few dozen civilians in that instance.
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)The number is not zero, unfortunately, but appears to be very low. I saw one video of a man standing within a foot of another when the pager exploded, the bystander was uninjured.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)14 people were killed. I would imagine those were the people that were specifically targeted. Injuries would have been people around them. It is reasonable to assume the vast majority of injuries were civilians, no?
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)ColinC
(10,853 posts)When each explosion occurred isolated from other Hezbollah members?
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)Given the amount of explosive (very small- it had to fit into a pager) the pager would have to be on or very near its target.
Hezbollah ordered 3000 pagers. The total killed and wounded is 2700-2800. Those numbers are very close. If there were 6,000-7,000 injured you might have a case.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)2 were healthcare workers.
That already shows a high level of in discrimination in the attacks even if the majority killed were militants (which we now know probably were not)
While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the groups extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanons Shiite community.
At least two health workers were among those killed Tuesday. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers.
https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)The fatality rate is less than .5%
If one chooses to work for a terrorist organization, one is accepting some risks come with such a choice.
Also as we have seen, the line between doctors/journalist/teacher/UN employee and active terrorist participant is quite permeable
ColinC
(10,853 posts)And the services they provide are necessary for Lebanese society to exist. Pointing out that they were linked to Hezbollah is a distinction without a difference. We are discussing civilian casualties and injuries. Not whether or not the civilians might have been linked to Hezbollah. Children were linked to Hezbollah too -often as family members. Does that mean it was right to kill them?
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)I do not begrudge the selection of the Pentagon as a target. It is a military center even though thousands of civilians work there. What made that specific attack terrorist was the use of a civilian airliner as the means of attack
ColinC
(10,853 posts)But I thoroughly disagree with the legitimacy of the attacks entirely. The Pentagon might have been a military target but (I think) it is largely civilians who worked there, and the vast majority killed would likely be civilians.
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)I appreciate the discussion
As long as we both vote for Harris/Walz I think we can socialize together.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)And I have enormous faith in her and her team.
Thank you for the discussion as well!!
24601
(4,021 posts)participate in the Parliament's coalitions, their military wing, is not part of the nation's armed forces. They are a non-governmental "militia" equipped, and funded by Iran specifically to fight Israel. It refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and Israel's elimination is one of its primary objectives.
Lebanese Hezbollah's routine direction starts with Iran's Supreme Leader through the Quds Force Commander and does not pass through any Lebanese civilian or military government officials/organizations before reaching Hezbollah Secretary General Nasrallah. The Lebanese Hezbollah remains the most reliable and loyal of many of Iran's surrogates and proxies.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)24601
(4,021 posts)which I couldn't find a publicly available source.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)The crass generalizations (ie theyre all terrorists!!)do us no good. While they are certainly designated by most western countries as such, I see Lebanon is one of the more thriving regions in the Middle East, and the vast majority of people living there certainly dont deserve whats happened to them. We also have a large Lebanese American community in this country (particularly in Michigan) whose motivation to vote will likely be heavily impacted by these events.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)You have a link to this claim?
ColinC
(10,853 posts)I welcome any information that disputes this assumption
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)ColinC
(10,853 posts)While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the groups extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanons Shiite community.
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)"potentially indiscriminate casualties", "wherever the holder of the pager happened to be", "no guarantee who was holding the device", "many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters", "mainly serving Lebanons Shiite community."
All speculaion and conjecture, None quantified or confirmed. Zero identical speculation and conjecture regarding Hezbollah fighters, whose numbers are "potentially" much higher by far than all of the above put together.
You have no grounds to make any assumptions.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)All of these people were likely holding pagers. Thats 33% of the people killed. You are suggesting that only Hezbollah militants were targeted. There is no evidence that was the case.
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)Your view is, and i quote: "In my view Hezbollah was a tiny minority of the people injured by those explosions".
And the only thing I suggested was that the pagers were intended for the exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives, as per Nasrallah's orders, as was reported by the media. I never commented on whether they were all used as intended. But it is highly improbable that only a tiny minority of them were.
ColinC
(10,853 posts)I look forward to learning more about what you mean in my free time.
Thanks for the discussion!
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,798 posts)"...to the shores of Tripoli ..." and all that.
It was not "unjustified", but it was an invasion.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)with orders from Nasrallah to only use the pagers to communicate between them with no regard to how heavily or lightly civilian areas the militants chose to operated in may be, this would not have happened?
Do you know that if it weren't for Nasrallah's orders, Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border, this would not have happened?
I do.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)And your previous comments about speculation...
Would you please provide a link to backup your claims?
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)Do you also know that if the pagers were not exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives...
with orders from Nasrallah to only use the pagers to communicate between them with no regard to how heavily or lightly civilian areas the militants chose to operated in may be, this would not have happened?
How do we know the pagers were "exclusively distributed to Hezbollah operatives?"
How do we know that "Israel disabling a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border?"
I must be missing something in the context of your speculation. The article does not mention these things.
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)"...were apparently acquired by Hezbollah after the terror groups leader ordered members in February to stop using cellphones, warning they could be tracked by Israeli intelligence."
They friggin told us, in no uncertain terms.
And since it was Hezbollah members, and no one else, who were ordered to use the pagers purchased by Hezbollah, we know that an overwhelming majority of the casualties must have been the intended users of the said pagers, i.e. the aforementioned "members" and no one else.
The current number of casualties from exploding pagers hovers around 3000, which is equivalent to the number of troops in a US brigade. So, with my apologies, I am taking back "division's worth" in favor of "brigade's worth". I trust that the bit about them all being disabled in a single day without a single IDF soldier crossing the border requires no further elaboration.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)I had not realized war had been declared. You do have a link to back this up, correct?
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)But in case my hunch is right, here's the reference:
No speculating about that.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)You are using military terms for a conflict with no war declared. Are you sure that is the correct terminology to use? You first said a "division's worth" now it's a "brigade's worth." Is there a war or not? If not, why are you using military terms to describe casualties?
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)The state of war is especially irrelevant when a reference to a military unit is used as I did: brigade's worth. This means I am not referring to an actual existing brigade but the number of combatants approximating the number of combatants in a brigade. And that number doesn't change whether any particular brigade is at war or not. Nor does it refer to casualties. Just as a gallon of gasoline is still a gallon of gasoline whether it is the amount of gasoline you have used today, or the amount of gasoline in the tank of your car, or the amount of gasoline at the refinery.
Brigade's worth, according to the chart I provided, equals to 2000 - 5000 troops. When the number of casualties is referred to as "brigade's worth", it refers to 2000 - 5000 casualties. It's their number, not their condition, not their location and not the state of their engagement.
I was under the impression that this number of troops would be equivalent to a division's worth (not a reference to any actual division, just the number of troops), but I was mistaken, and I corrected the error.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)Do you have that link requested regarding a war being declared? or...
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)a) is irrelevant to anything I posted,
b) was never mentioned by me, and
c) being irrelevant to anything I posted and being never mentioned by me, you know does not exist?
Just to show me how awkward you can get in building a strawman?
No need, I saw it coming before you started.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)You have on multiple occasions used military terms. I thought we were talking about war.
When you use military terms to describe the casualties, is that not related to war?
Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)By placing it in the opponents mouth and then attacking that version of the argument, one is essentially refuting an argument that is different from the one under discussion.
Straw man fallacy example:
Person 1: Israel disabled a brigade's worth of terrorists
Person 2: Brigade is a military term. Explain why you are using it when the war between Israel and the terrorists hasn't been declared?
Person 1: ...WTF??? (eye roll)
This conversation is over. Enjoy your day!
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)Person 1: Israel disabled a brigade's worth of terrorists
You still haven't provided the link to your claims.
EX500rider
(11,503 posts)If a militia in Mexico fired thousands of rockets at US towns, we would be at war with them instantly.
JDAM's & Reapers would be inbound on the same day, that sure sounds like a war.
DiamondShark
(1,114 posts)And detonating bombs in a foreign city would be...
EX500rider
(11,503 posts)But since Hezbollah has sent thousands of flying bombs across the border into Israel I'd say they are at war with Israel
ColinC
(10,853 posts)If the US had not invaded Muslim territories, this would not have happened.
It is a terroristic explanation for terror and we shouldnt spread it.
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)This is absolutely a legitimate targeting of the other military asset of the enemy, Hezbollah fighters.
If you are in the least bit interested what the law says about civilians in this situation, refer to Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
It basically says, and I paraphrase, "Terrorism my ass!"
Srkdqltr
(7,698 posts)Get installed? At Taiwan? Or when they got to Lebanon? Were they stopped at some point before delivery , tampered with and no-one noticed?
Srkdqltr
(7,698 posts)AZSkiffyGeek
(12,631 posts)Srkdqltr
(7,698 posts)Beastly Boy
(11,249 posts)In international waters...
Hmmm...
Polybius
(18,091 posts)At least that's how I took it from the article.
Srkdqltr
(7,698 posts)And no one wondered? why did it take longer? And go somewhere else first? Very strange.
Polybius
(18,091 posts)It already takes a while for a package to get from Taiwan to Lebanon, so probably the few days or so wasn't noticed.
sarisataka
(21,178 posts)2 weeks? a month? "Sorry there has been a delay in shipping your order, it will take 10 extra days to arrive."
FakeNoose
(35,874 posts)Israeli techs worked efficiently en route. I don't know, I'm just spit ballin' here.
Turbineguy
(38,435 posts)Containers would be at transit hubs for several days. Leaving Taiwan, the containers would be on large linehaul carriers. Then they would be transferred to small feeder ships for the final delivery to Beirut.
Eugene
(62,717 posts)Insiders could have switched out the pagers (and now also walkie talkies)
anywhere in the supply chain, the warehouses, the distributors,
the shippers.
This isn't the first time the Mossad has boobytrapped a mobile device.
Only the scale is new.
moreland01
(834 posts)warfare has changed technologically. We really don't need hand to hand combat any longer. Drones and now pagers? Wondering what they're teaching at West Point these days?
RussBLib
(9,682 posts)...billion-dollar planes? Except to feed the congressional/military/industrial complex?
Everything changes. Military has to change, and we'd better figure out how to protect satellites in orbit, unless that's about to radically change too
https://russblib.blogspot.com/?m=1
Hekate
(94,991 posts)Mysterian
(5,194 posts)Or did they pay full price?
MarineCombatEngineer
(14,377 posts)RussBLib
(9,682 posts)...but these are pretty dark times, considering.
https://russblib.blogspot.com/?m=1
JoseBalow
(5,417 posts)Beringia
(4,607 posts)From Reuters
Tuesday's attack wounded many of the militant group's fighters and Iran's envoy to Beirut.
Frontline workers described hellish scenes: victims of thousands of small explosions linked to pagers used by Hezbollah rushed into hospitals, some with organs protruding, others with missing eyes or fingers.
The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Turk called for an independent investigation into the events surrounding exploding pagers.
The United Nations Security Council will meet on Friday over the pager blasts after a request from Algeria on behalf of Arab states, said Slovenia's U.N. Ambassador Samuel Zbogar, president of the 15-member council for September.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/