Incrementalism **Socialist Progressive Group Post **

[TBF]

I think we need to understand that politics involves BOTH economic and social issues, and that they are intertwined. At the root of the divide on DU currently is that some reject capitalism, while others think that perhaps capitalism isn't so bad - it just needs to be accessible to everyone as opposed to oppressing certain genders, races, etc.., (and that to hope for more is too ambitious). In this group previously we have always argued for replacement of the system. That SOP is perhaps getting pressured due to the wide chasm between the two people running for the party nomination this spring. I'm not sure how we reconcile this, but I posit that we are missing the forest for the trees if we do not realize that at minimum we need an FDR style overhaul of the system if we are even going to survive as a planet, much less make improvements. Don't be afraid to dream big - it is fear that is keeping us down.

[Cheese Sandwich]

2. Great quote.

DU seems to have a lot of progressives and liberals. A lot of people don't seem to really get the whole picture of socialism. Bernie might be partly to blame because he really brought it down to the smallest easiest thing. Overall he did good but maybe simplified it a little too much. And honestly socialists disagree with each other a lot too. This Harriet Tubman quote is great though. It makes the point that many people don't recognize their own conditions of oppression. That's still true.

[TBF]

3. Yes definitely agree with all of that -

and I do understand him simplifying. The main things we put in our TOS were that we didn't want red-baiting in here (which of course still comes in under the guise of "support" by incrementalists) and we didn't want to fight the ancient battles - like Stalin vs. Trotsky. All of that is plentiful out in GD, GD , and probably most other forums and it was just nice when we had a break from it.

[socialist_n_TN]

4. The problem, if there is a problem, is that we're forced to........

rely on self-identification in this group. I didn't mind that at first simply because I've always looked a left reformists as comrades who hadn't made the break with the bourgeoisie. YET.

[TBF]

5. "Problem" may be a strong word -

but it's interesting to note that parties do change historically. We're in the position now where the dems seem to be overtaking the repugs as the status quo party (strongly defending the free market yet obviously more progressive on social issues), while the r's are becoming a more revolutionary party albeit in the quest for social reform of their own making (theocracy). What is a Marxist to do in such a situation? I guess that is what I am grappling over.

This may well work itself out if we see a strong third party run during the election (and then I would most likely take a break in order to participate in that event and perhaps return at a later date).