In Brexit showdown, British PM May faces issue of 'meaningful vote'

[Exotica]

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-parliament/in-brexit-showdown-may-faces-issue-of-meaningful-vote-idUSKBN1J72Q4

LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Theresa May faces a showdown on Tuesday with lawmakers who want power to force her government to go back to the negotiating table if they reject a Brexit deal, testing her plans for leaving the European Union.

On the first day of votes that could further complicate her tortured negotiations to quit the EU, parliament will debate a demand for a “meaningful vote” on any agreement May negotiates with Brussels before leaving the bloc next March. Such a vote would give the lower house of parliament more power to set the government’s “direction” if lawmakers reject the agreement, which could mean sending May back into negotiations with EU officials just months before Britain is due to leave.

May says her Brexit blueprint, or EU withdrawal bill, offers lawmakers a meaningful vote on a final deal when they can either accept or reject it, which would see Britain crash out. Beyond that, her Brexit minister David Davis told BBC radio the government would never allow lawmakers to reverse Brexit. “Whatever we do, we’re not going to reverse that,” Davis said. “A meaningful vote is not the ability to reverse the decision of the referendum.”

Conservative Party officials have been frantically lobbying lawmakers to support the government in a series of votes on amendments handed down from the upper house of parliament on the EU withdrawal bill, which will sever ties with the EU by copying and pasting the bloc’s laws.

snip

video at the link

[Soph0571]

1. The justice minister just resigned

I think there will be blood on the carpet by noon....

[Exotica]

3. Minister quits - 'the horses are circling the paddock'

Link to tweet

[riversedge]

2. The 3 ..in this picture w/Trump have now confessed to colluding w/ Russia to rig the #Brexit vote

I am behind in the news and can not follow it. Will need to update myself.

Link to tweet

The Daily Edge @TheDailyEdge

The three people in this picture with Donald Trump have now confessed to colluding with Russia to rig the #Brexit vote.
2:20 PM - 11 Jun 2018


83 replies 2,772 retweets 2,906 likes


The Daily Edge Retweeted Carole Cadwalladr

#FF @carolecadwalla

The Daily Edge added,
Carole Cadwalladr Verified account @carolecadwalla

America! Remember @nigel_farage? Aka Mr Brexit?!? Friend of Steve Bannon, ally of Trump, star of Russia TV. Turns out good pals & Brexit funder, @Arron_banks & @andywigmore were negotiating covert deals brokered by Russian ambassador! Counter-propaganda offensive launching soon.. …
1 reply 70 retweets 105 likes


Replying to @TheDailyEdge

Four Russian conspirators walk into a bar...
4 replies 9 retweets 76 likes
Into the Weird
? @IamGrantRichter
14h14 hours ago

The Elder God Shuma-Gorath descends from the outer depths of icy space, devours the bar. Everyone else buys Shuma-Gorath a coffee for his selfless act of public service
1 reply 2 retweets 21 likes



(((R.A. Roth, Rainbow in the Dark)))
? @fantagor
10h10 hours ago

Happy ending for all.
1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes

End of conversation

New conversation
Ali Amica Nostra

💙
? @AmicaAli
13h13 hours ago
Replying to @TheDailyEdge @BarbieToes1

“I don’t know any of those men. Wouldn’t recognize their face if I saw them.” -Trump
2 replies 3 retweets 21 likes
💥Barbie Toes 1
💥
? @BarbieToes1
13h13 hours ago

Me either and that's frightening. That's how deep this conspiracy goes.
1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
C Barker Congdon
🌊
? @CynthiabytheSea
11h11 hours ago

The names are in the second post of the thread...
1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
Ali Amica Nostra
💙
? @AmicaAli
11h11 hours ago

Was referring to Trump’s repeated denial of knowing many of those he has been associated with, not their actual names. 🙂
2 replies 1 retweet 13 likes
John Durbin
? @jd4uk1
9h9 hours ago

I got it ...😄

[Exotica]

5. 'Winning an election isn't about facts': Arron Banks and Andy Wigmore face MPs' questions - live

Key players from the Leave.EU campaign answer questions about Brexit and Russia. Follow the latest developments

Carole Cadwalladr: 10 questions Banks and Wigmore must answer

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2018/jun/12/arron-banks-and-andy-wigmore-face-mps-leave-eu-brexit-russia-live

46s ago
11:32
“I’m frankly sick and tired of this,” Banks says. “You’ve got a vested interest in trying to discredit the Brexit campaign. I look, you’ve not called any witnesses from the Remain campaign to hammer them. If Mr Osborne, editor of the evening standard, isn’t going to any football matches with Putin’s number one man, he’s certainly working for Putin’s second man.

“The guy leading the Remain campaign is working for a Putin oligarch in London. If you can’t see double standards, I don’t think that’s fair.”


2m ago
11:31
“I like to think I’m an evil genius with a white cap who controls all of democracy, but clearly that’s not true,” Banks says with a grin, before getting more frustrated:

“By the way, you keep mentioning different names. This is a wonderful pieces of Guardian’s fake news. What they’ve done is go through the documents at Companies House, and Companies House frequently makes mistakes. When you say ‘different names’, it’s my name, so I can’t see where it comes from. It just says Arron Banks, sometimes misspelled with two As, or in some cases it uses my middle name. Now you just brought it up, because that is exactly how fake news works. You say ‘you used seven different version in companies house’, well actually it’s just my name, or my middle name. It’s a complete non-story.

“If you don’t like my structure, don’t lecture me about offshore tax structures or complexity, change the law!”

snip

[riversedge]

12. thanks. for post.

[Denzil_DC]

20. "If you don't like my structure, ... change the law!"

Sounds very Trump:

Trump’s Defense of His Tax Avoidance Is Getting Even More Brazen

“If you don’t like what I did, you should’ve changed the laws.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/10/20/trump_somehow_blames_clinton_for_his_tax_avoidance_again.html?via=gdpr-consent

Which pleads to be responded to with: "Alrighty, then."

But how shamelessly disingenuous of Banks, of course.

Many of us suspect that one of the major driving forces from the more unscrupulous movers and groovers in Big Money - including those in the government, not least our Prime Minister's own husband - for a "clean break" hard Brexit is the prospect of the EU's Anti Tax Avoidance Directive coming into force on 1 January 2019, as part of a long-term strategy to clamp down on tax havens and money laundering.

A "soft" Brexit with a lengthy transition period would mean the UK being subject to these same laws, hence the frothing at the prospect from some quarters.

However, even after Brexit, the UK could still face challenges on this score from potential EU trading partners, e.g.: Netherlands 'will block UK-EU deal without tax avoidance measures'.

I'd love to see Banks' bluff being called, but I guess he knows the score among a number of those questioning him. Maybe he'll come a cropper yet.

[TimeSnowDemos]

4. Over the cliff

Straight to WTO rules.

The UK government - including the opposition - are living in a fact free bubble. It will only end one way: disaster.

[Exotica]

6. 'including the opposition'

I am a huge Corbyn supporter and Labour voter, so I respectfully and profoundly disagree. The UK is not the US (I am a dual citizen), where my politics are more centrist due to the impossibility of electing Corbyn-style pols on a large scale.

[TimeSnowDemos]

7. If you're a huge Corbyn supprter

you know he has spent months praising Brexit, and generating his own set of fairytale outcomes.

I LIVE in Ireland, and lived for years in the UK... my daughter was born in London. I'm a dual citizen of Ireland and the US.

Corbyn is pro-CU with the EU, but that strips the UK of a seat at the table and a voice in making EU policy. It also stops the UK from striking trade deals.

So, all the anti-EU propaganda: That the EU was an unaccountable bureaucracy, that the EU stopped the UK from making better trade deals, that the EU stopped the UK from controlling it's borders... That's EXACTLY what Corbyn is agitating for.

And he's selling it as a POSITIVE.

That's delusional. Or dishonest. Or both.

I like some of what Corbyn says, but he's neither representing the will of his party - the majority of which are anti-Brexit - the will of the country - the majority of which are now anti-Brexit - or even a better option than what the UK currently has.

It's a disastrous position only made tenable by Labour's vast incompetence and in fact by the exact thing I was referencing in my original post: the opposition is living in a fact free bubble.

[Exotica]

8. The Norway/EEA model is a non-starter as it is more or less leaving us in the EU without having any

any real influence at all, and will produce a bloodbath for many of our MP's. The EEA option so many Labour MPs against it that I would argue that THAT path is the delusional one. Corbyn is doing his level best to throw a spanner in the works of May's attempts and I stand with him.

[TimeSnowDemos]

9. By advocating an option you describe as:

"non-starter"

How is advocating AGAINST what his members want, against what the country wants, and for what you rightfully think is dead in the water and a disaster for Labour if he SUCCEEDED, how is that worth supporting?

I get that you want to stop May - Labour can't, but I get that you and they want to - but advocating for disaster, claiming it's success, that seems inherently delusional, or dishonest.

If a party leader is openly advocating for a disaster, purely to mess with the opposition - Labour has no real power here - I would not support them.

I would support people NOT advocating for disaster, but that leaves me few options in the UK. Because both major parties are claiming that their form of disaster is better - not relative to success, but relative to each other. Because both major parties are living in a fact free bubble.

Brexit is going to make the UK a LOT worse. It COULD be stopped if the support for a second referendum was grown, and quickly, but that would take leaders that cared more about their country than their petty political squabbles.

So, off the cliff you'll go.

It's a great time for people that want to see the UK suffer.

[Exotica]

10. If you think that an EEA style relationship will fly in the Britain

of today (as we would have to adhere to all the stipulations that come with it AND have a much smaller input into the overall governance of the EU) then I am afraid that this is delusional.

Corbyn, last Tuesday, decided to back a new amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill which demands “full access” to the EU single market after the UK leaves. He also has refused to NOT back a 2nd referendum. He is running laps around May and the Tories.

[TimeSnowDemos]

11. It won't

But that is EXACTLY what Corbyn is advocating.

He wants a "Customs Union" with the EU:

"The Labour party now supports Britain remaining in a customs union after Brexit."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/27/customs-union-brexit-european-union-eu-turkey

"Intrinsic to the idea of a customs union is that goods cannot enter into it without paying the agreed common external tariff. Therefore only the European commission, and not individual countries, can negotiate trade deals with third countries. So Britain would not be able to negotiate independent trade deals with third countries that involved the lowering of tariffs. That would remove one of the principal advantages of Brexit: the opportunity to secure lower prices for consumers by importing goods tariff-free from outside the EU.

"In addition, when the EU negotiates a trade deal with third countries, the deal would open up British markets to these countries; but it would not open up their markets to Britain, since Britain would not be a member of the EU.

A customs-union Britain would therefore have to conclude separate trade agreements with third countries so as to secure the benefits of the EU deal. But there would be little incentive for third countries to conclude such agreements, since their goods would already be able freely to enter Britain."

"So Britain would have to align itself not only with EU trade policy but also with the laws of the EU in certain areas: not only as they are now but also as they may be altered in years to come – except without a vote to help decide on them. Britain would be subject to regulation without representation"

And there would still be "friction" at the border:

"The EU has so far agreed to frictionless trade and open-access road transport only for countries that accept free movement – members of the European Economic Area (Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) and Switzerland, which has bilateral agreements."

THAT ^^^ is what Corbyn is advocating. Something you called a non-starter. Agreed. It's never going to happen. And it would be awful if it did. Almost as awful as what May wants. Which the EU has already rejected.

There's NO SUCH THING as full access to EU markets, without being in the EU. That is a fiction. And a great example of the thinking inside the Corbyn fact free zone.

So, again again, off the cliff edge.

[Exotica]

13. *Britain would be subject to regulation without representation'

is EXACTLY what a Norway style deal would entail.


also

"In addition, when the EU negotiates a trade deal with third countries, the deal would open up British markets to these countries; but it would not open up their markets to Britain, since Britain would not be a member of the EU.

Is simply NOT true, as that would mean that EVERY non EU country that that has a trade deal with the EU has zero access to the common market whilst the EU has complete access to theirs, which is patently ridiculous. Corbyn is advocating a bespoke customs union deal, NOT entering into the current one.

Also, the author of that article was a huge David Cameron booster (and one of his professors).



also from The Guardian

Jeremy Corbyn's customs union idea just might fly

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/jeremy-corbyn-customs-union-idea-just-might-fly-brexit



Finally, WHAT do you wish to see? I would love a 2nd Referendum, as I assume so would you. But, if that does not occur, what would you like to see?

[TimeSnowDemos]

14. Lot's of bubble here

"that would mean that EVERY non EU country that that has a trade deal with the EU has zero access to the common market whilst the EU has complete access to theirs"

Of course that's NOT true.

First, it should be noted that we're not talking about "EVERY non EU country that that has a trade deal with the EU," which is a VERY different prospect than being in a Customs Union. Conflating those two things is a very "fact free bubble" way to behave.

But let's look at what you probably meant to suggest:

Play this out.

The UK leaves the EU.
The UK has a Custom Union with the EU, remembering that a Custom's union means the UK can't negotiate better than EU deals with third parties.

Singapore makes a trade deal with the EU.

The UK is not IN the EU.

The UK then has to negotiate a separate deal - which has terms no better than the EU deal - or it can't access the Singaporean market. Because it doesn't have a deal with Singapore, the EU does. Not the UK. The EU.

On the OTHER hand, Singapore can happily sell into the UK via any other EU country.

AND what benefit does Singapore have by giving another country access to it's market? Why would it spend it's resources to help the UK? It likely wouldn't, or at the very least it would be a low priority of ANY government.

And all of this, because a Customs Union strips your freedom.

Which is why it's wildly worse than being an EU member.

From the article you linked:

"The option of a new UK customs union with the EU would need to ensure the UK has a say in future trade deals ... being able to negotiate agreement of new trade deals in our national interest..."

This is NOT what is or ever will be on offer. A meaningful voice at the table in the EU, after leaving the EU? It's a joke, and it's been shot down repeatedly BY the EU. Another bit of information that hasn't penetrated the UK media bubble. Like the idea that Max-Fac is a going concern. Two sides in the same fact free bubble.

From the "rule taker" perspective, a Custom's Union is almost exactly the same as an EEA deal.

This is what you'd know if you read non-UK media. Customs Union = rule taker. Claims that a deal could allow the UK to have some sort of "all of the benefits and none of the commitments" deal is wilfully delusional or disastrously out of touch.

Your article also calls a CU: "a diminution of international influence". No kidding.

As for what I'd want, there's no good option for Ireland. Would I rather be shot in the left arm or the right? Tough decision.

Whatever the UK chooses will materially and permanently damage multiple EU countries AND the UK, and my country the most of all EU countries. Aside from schadenfreude and wishing for things that'll never happen, I have no real hope, but try and cope with the shit storm a bunch of racists and xenophobes have unleashed on my country.

[Exotica]

15. I still think (you will call it bubble thinking) that we can somehow

do a bespoke customs union. Time will tell. And not every Leave vote was cast by RW racists. Plenty on the Left also voted Leave. I voted Remain, and Brexit really puts me in a bind as I am now living in the EU outside of the UK for several years now and may have to cashier my US citizenship to take a Swedish one if I wish to have free EU right of movement.

We both agree its a true shite sandwich. The only truly good outcome for all would be a 2nd referendum and a Remain outcome from that. I am not holding my breath. Sorry for your (and all the Irish) predicament. Getting fucked by Westminster is nothing new for you, unfortunately.

[TimeSnowDemos]

16. Bubble thinking

There's ZERO precedence for a Custom Union that is BETTER than being in the EU. There's no reason to think that the EU has ANY reason to encourage the break up of the EU - which would happen if the UK ended up better off - and no reason to be hopeful for magic solutions.

I don't think EVERY leave voter is a RW racist, but they ALL voted for a campaign that WAS racist.

Wether you have to be a racist to throw your lot in with racists... you tell me. Then again, I can tell you that the UK has 50K hate crimes a YEAR, after Brexit was confirmed hundreds of racist attacks happened, and even Corbyn thinks the UK needs to take back control of its border... you can explain that in non-racist terms if you'd like, but... all facts point to the UK economy being hurt by a shut border... so if it doesn't HELP the UK... I'm sure you'll have a way to twist that to be not xenophobic. but I'm also not sure I'll buy whatever it is you'll be selling.

Finally, thanks for your commiseration. You're absolutely right that being screwed by the UK is pretty much the norm for Ireland. At least this time we have the EU on our side.

If I were you, I'd get on that Swedish passport post haste. There's no reason to assume the EU and the UK will reach a deal, and if they don't you'll illegally be in the EU. Not that the EU is gonna come after you, but they could easily cut off your access to any benefits, bank accounts, etc.

Best of luck, and I hope it works out for you... if it does it won't be because of anyone in the UK though I'd wager.

[Denzil_DC]

19. There is no conceivable "bespoke" deal on EU trade that doesn't involve freedom of movement.

Indeed, the trading deal feelers that have gone out to non-EU countries like India etc. have indicated that the prospective trading partners would insist on freedom of movement as part of any deal.

Since Labour (along with the Tories) has bought in to the UKIP line on immigration, it's hard to see how it can back down on that.

If it had called out the Tories for failing to enact the measures to restrict immigration that have been available to the UK just like every other EU state over the years, then it might have some wiggle room.

As it is, it's a party of weathervanes, rather than signposts (see Tony Benn for that reference). I can't see any way out of the corner it's backed itself into.

[T_i_B]

17. I campaigned for Remain

It was during the referendum that I became disillusioned with Corbyn, and he's only got worse since then.

I strongly suspect he was always a leaver, who felt that the EU was just a big capitalist conspiracy and after he won the 2nd leadership contest felt free to impose his will on the rest of the party regardless of what the wider party think. If anything it's becoming increasingly apparent that Corbyn fanboys regard us remainers as being little more than closet Blairites.

It's irksome in the extreme to see Corbynites, who accuse everyone else inside and outside of Labour of being Tory enablers going all out to enable the most damaging policy of the Conservatives. Labour policy on the EU is at best extremely befuddled and just as delusional as the tripe you hear from the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Same here

[LeftishBrit]

22. It just failed (sigh)

Some of the potential rebels caved under pressure from May and the whips (and perhaps from fear of a Thomas Mair? some of the Brextremists are scary). There were the six who deserve some credit for holding out: Ken Clarke, Heidi Allen, Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston, Philip Lee, Antoinette Sandbach. But also the four Labourites who deserve *no* credit for voting with the government: Kate Phooey, the DUP MP for Vauxhall; Frank Field (surprise surprise - NOT); John Mann; and Graham Stringer -whom I've never respected since he went on a crusade a few years ago to insist that there would be no such thing as dyslexia if all schools taught exclusively synthetic phonics!

Oh well. Parliament has failed us as per usual. Now it's up to us. Let's hope for HUGE numbers at the June 23rd march!