I'm actually getting a chance to move out of the Dark Ages (aka COBOL)

[Kennah]

Starting a new gig on the 16th. Still with the state, same money (wife yelled at me for not negotiating harder for at least some sort of pay bump), different agency, less stress, and a better, brighter future. I will also get to switch from 50 hours a week to the 40 hours a week I'm supposed to work. <sarcasm>Y'all know us fucking lazy union state workers.</sarcasm>

The big win is that I will eventually be COBOL FREE!

I worked on contract at this new place about 10-12 years ago. They were still running Mainframe COBOL and in the early stages of exploring the .NET and SQL Server world. Wanted to get on with them since this seemed like an ideal opportunity, but there was a bloodletting in progress back then. Temporary state workers were fleeing, so I knew once my contract was up, we were gone.

Around 2003 or 2004, they moved to Fujitsu COBOL.NET--the solution to ensure COBOL would never die. I hear mixed stories about how well the conversion went, but apparently some couldn't make the move into .NET, even with the COBOL syntax.

When they went .NET, the database moved to SQL Server, the front end became VB.NET, and there was a database layer (I believe also in VB.NET) between the COBOL.NET and SQL Server. Core business logic remains in COBOL.

Today, they have a small team of Cobologists, which I will join. Even with me, this group is at least half the size of what it was back in 2001. I am not only going back to the same agency but the same group where I worked before. I half expect to find my name in comments. That Karma and her sister Fate, they are some piece of work.

During the interview they made it clear this is a COBOL gig. However, there has been an effort to migrate the COBOL.NET components to C#. Problem is the Cobolosaurs don't know C#, and the .NET developers don't know COBOL. It has been more than a somewhat disjointed effort to migrate.

Enter me. They want a developer who is infected with the COBOL virus, but who is willing to learn and move into the .NET realm of C#--their chosen migration path. OOOH! OOOH! PICK ME! PICK ME! They did.

Initially, it will be all COBOL. Since the Washington State Legislature is in session, some project through August, it's probably going to be a lot of rapid deliveries of work NOW. That's fine. I can do COBOL in my sleep. You get used to the nightmares.

I've done some classroom in VB, Studio, C#, and ASP. Very little actual production coding in it. Took a C# class in 2011, while I was laid off, and it was my first time seeing .NET so I took the Level 1 class. Blasted through with ease and twiddled my thumbs a lot. Studio environment hadn't changed much. If I hadn't gotten my current COBOL gig in 2011, I would have kept at the C# classes, we probably woulda sold off most everything, lived in our minivan with the kids, and I would have tried to talk my way in the door doing entry level C# somewhere.

New place asked about training, and I said while I could step into it right away and figure things out, I really did want to get any and all training I could get on Studio and C#. No point in handicapping myself if I can avoid it. They have also moved from Waterfall to Agile recently, so I asked about training there as well.

During the first interview, when I got to ask questions, I asked about the conversion from Mainframe COBOL to COBOL.NET and whether they did any major refactoring of the code. Nope, not really. I restrained myself, but it tickled me and makes me giggle now when I think about it.

When I started there in 2000, I had been doing Mainframe COBOL already for 10 years. COBOL is COBOL, but there was something about the style of this COBOL that made me a bit puzzled. This led me to ask a question of my coworker, a retired state worker then contracting, whom we'll call George. I said to George that there's just something about the style of this COBOL code that I've never seen before, and asked if he could explain it. George took a deep breath, sighed, and pushed his glasses back up onto his nose. He's been asked this before, and there's a story behind it. COOL!

Back in the early 1970s, the agency migrated from Assembly language to COBOL and switched hardware platforms. At that time, and George was there for it, the decision was to just do code conversion and worry about refactoring the code later. Fast forward to 2000, it's later, but refactoring never happened.

1950s or 1960s era Assembly language morphs into Mainframe COBOL then morphs into COBOL.NET and at least some of the original business logic still lives today in 2013--whether they want it to or not.

Talk of COBOL being dead isn't really appropriate. It's like talking about the planet running out of oil. We don't have to run out of oil for the shit to hit the fan. There doesn't have to be zero lines of COBOL code in production before one realizes the future of COBOL developers is bleak. At 62, yeah one can retire doing COBOL. At 45 (me), not so much. I suspect there's Ada, FORTRAN, and PL-1 in production, but I wouldn't encourage one to pursue a career in it.

[TexasTowelie]

1. Congrats on the new gig.

It's been about 20 years since I programmed in COBOL. I kind of stepped in on a project at work when I was working for the state of Texas. My job was as a statistician but I would get thrown programming assignments on occasion. Someone else wrote the base code for the program, but I worked out all of the bugs within the code and was surprised by some of the obvious mistakes that the high dollar programmers made--about 30% of the tests that I developed resulted in edit failures. I had to add entire sub-routines in order for the program to function correctly.

It is good to have the fundamentals down and I'm surprised when that knowledge comes in handy.

I missed Ada and PL-1, but I also have some FORTRAN in my background--it would be funny to see if it ever comes back into vogue.

I also have some work experience in VB, VBA and was considered a guru on Microsoft Access if you ever need a resource.

[sir pball]

9. I saw fortrash a good bit at Brookhaven NatLab ~2004

It's still the go-to language for serious science:

Since Fortran has been in use for more than fifty years, there is a vast body of Fortran in daily use throughout the scientific and engineering communities. It is the primary language for some of the most intensive supercomputing tasks, such as astronomy, weather and climate modeling, numerical linear algebra LAPACK, numerical libraries IMSL, structural engineering, hydrological modeling, optimization, satellite simulators, computational fluid dynamics, computational chemistry, computational economics, animal breeding, plant breeding and computational physics. Even today, half a century later, many of the floating-point benchmarks to gauge the performance of new computer processors are still written in Fortran (e.g., CFP2006, the floating-point component of the SPEC CPU2006 benchmarks).

Call up the DoE, I'd bet the real big supers are running FORTAN code...probably a sweet gig if you can get it.

[davidwparker]

2. Congrats!

Add to C#, C++ and Java when you have time to keep the rebranding going.

[napoleon_in_rags]

3. I'm jealous

Programming foe WA state would be a great gig. Unfortunately I was always a Linux Java guy, and WA is married to Microsoft.

COBOL was before my time, but having seen the difference between old languages like C and new languages like Python, I can imagine your joy.

[Kennah]

4. State of WA views Microsoft as "buying local"

I did a Java keyword search, and got 10 hits. Takes maybe an hour or so to set up your profile, but then it's pretty easy to apply for new gigs as they come along. If you're interested, check it out.
http://careers.wa.gov/

I recently made what should have been a fairly small change to an existing, simple program, but it was a complete rewrite that took the better part of a day. Before I made the change, I wanted to do an assessment of the change. I have an Access database that I load up with Production data to do analysis. To produce the exact same results in Access took me all of a few minutes joining 3 tables in an aggregate query.

[napoleon_in_rags]

5. Hey, a question...

Do you have any advice generally on how to break in to tech jobs with the state? I've watched that site, but all the openings seem to be for higher "levels", a general problem with tech jobs. I have a degree and decent skills, but stayed with the human services work I was doing in college after I graduated, so I don't have much documented experience in the field. Thoughts?

Thanks for your response, that's amazing. The power of databases is massively under appreciated in my humble opinion. Most web apps use something like MySQL but use none of its power, its just dumb data storage - the processing done in the server side code. They don't understand the power of complex queries, joins, triggers and all that one can do with them.

Peace!

[Kennah]

6. I would recommend that you apply whether you are a perfect match or not

Last Governor didn't exactly help with some of her privatization efforts. Thus far, the new Governor seems a lot less hostile towards us.

There has been a strange disconnect with some state tech jobs and the application/hiring process. We got dozens of people applying for a Help Desk gig, including people with advanced degrees. Then for some programming gigs, no one applies. I talked to someone at another state agency, and they were getting people like out of work plumbers applying for mid level programming gigs with no programming experience at all.

There has been a recent "brain drain" over the past couple of years at the state, so you don't necessarily have to be a spot on match with experience or skillset. Of course, that can mean you step into a void that you have to fill, and it can be sink or swim.

There was another guy hired, same time as me, with no Mainframe and no COBOL experience. He read some things online, and actually did OK on the programming test they gave. He's done pretty good, shown initiative, and worked hard. Early on, he was frustrated, and some of the senior folks were talking bad about him. I spread it around, "If y'all don't want to work with him, give him to me. I'll work with him, since he's willing to learn, and oh by the way, he comes to me for help anyway because y'all don't seem to understand how to explain COBOL to someone trying to learn it."

If the job has 4 major skills desired, and you only have one, apply. If you don't have the required years they want, apply. If you are THE candidate, or just the best candidate, you might get in.

Sometimes the application is a bit of a test in reading carefully and following directions. There might be instructions buried in the job listing that say, "Attach a copy of your resume, cover letter, and references" or "Complete the application at the link near the bottom and attach it".

If you get in for a first interview, those are almost always technical in nature. Could be a written test that they leave you in a room with to complete. Other times they just hand you the questions printed out, and you answer aloud. I have found that younger managers will sometimes employ the dry erase board, maybe sketch a couple of database tables, and ask you to write a SQL statement to do something.

If you get called back for a second interview, that will be the compatibility test. Working well with others, stepping up to get the work done, working out conflicting priorities with Project Managers, etc.

Some places combine it all together in one interview and have both technical and compatibility questions together. If you see the people on the interview panel writing while you are answering questions, they are scoring your answers. 5 points total, 1 point for saying X, 2 points for saying Y, 2 more points for saying Z. That sort of thing. Some will give unconscious visual cues like putting down their pen/pencil when you have completely answered the question to their satisfaction.

There is time reserved near the end for you to ask anything or add anything. If there are any gaps in your skillset or years of experience, as compared to what the job posting wants, now is the time you can proactively address those. "I know that on paper I am not an ideal match for this job, but I know that I can step into this role and deliver what is needed." Make it your own words so that it flows naturally and sounds like it comes from you.

Something you might want to do is make an appointment at a local WorkSource office to talk with a job coach, career counselor, or whatever that local office calls them. Resume advice, mock interviews, 30 second commercial were all very helpful and valuable to me.
https://fortress.wa.gov/esd/worksource/

If you know anyone personally at any state agency, ask them if they know anyone in IT. See if you can get an informational interview with one of the hiring managers in IT. There might be a position they are trying to fill, and you showing the initiative of seeking them out could be enough for them to consider you when otherwise they would not. On the other hand, if the person is a complete jerk, then maybe you cross that agency off your list. Even if you don't know anyone, but the job interests you, contact the person listed on the position. They might be HR or they might be IT. See if you can get an informational interview with the hiring manager to learn more about the agency, the office or department, and the work involved.

If you are not 100% certain what a particular agency does, go on their website and fish around. You can get a good overview from a little reading. I applied for a job with the Board of Industrial Insurance Adjustments, BIIA, two years ago. They did ask me during the interview if I knew what they did, and I gave a brief synopsis from what I read online. They can be helpful so that you have an idea about how serious they are as an agency. For example, I know the Washington State Patrol polygraphs all employees, even IT. I've talked to people who applied to WSP, not for trooper jobs, and the interview can feel like an interrogation.

[napoleon_in_rags]

7. Wow, what an incredibly informative response.

I am truly grateful for all you put into that. A lot to try, a lot of wisdom. I will start on that in the coming weeks.

Its been frustrating, because I absolutely know I could give Washington state their money's worth with a chance, but the postings seem to discourage application from all but a very very small subset of the population. I understand now that I should apply anyway, and be proactive in demonstrating how my skills might fit with their needs. Research, intelligence, initiative. Good advice.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post that. It means a lot to me.

Peace!
Nir

[DaveJ]

8. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for old schoolers to realize "SQL Proficiency" isn't necessary.

I love how LINQ is integrated with the logic of .Net code, and I suspect it optimizes the queries, which is better than letting programmers get dirty hands on SQL.

Nevertheless, a lot of jobs still want to evaluate candidates by having them write SQL Queries. I love telling headhunters I don't do SQL during interviews -- any place that expects that probably is not a good fit for me. Of course that's why I never hear from them again. But it's still fun to say. And I know I'm just ahead of my time and that maybe I'll someday work with others with like minds.