Dialogue with Hair on Fire members

[stevenleser]

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Can you believe that Obama? He said he wouldn't do the same thing as Bush, but there he is spying on Americans!

Other DUer: Wait, is he doing the same thing as Bush? Maybe I missed it but is Obama having FBI/CIA/NSA listen to American's phone calls without a warrant?

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Oh, now you are trying to make excuses for spying on Americans? You like that Obama is doing that don't you? The rest of us are not authoritarians. Take that elsewhere.

Other DUer: Hey, hold on a second here. I asked a simple question. I was very upset when I found out that Bush was listening to American citizen's phone calls without a warrant. Is Obama doing the same thing? I was told he is getting a FISA warrant and is only having the NSA put metadata in database vaults for later use if necessary. Is that not right?

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: I knew it. I'm not falling for this game, OK? Play it with someone else who also doesn't care about the privacy of Americans.

Second Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Good Job Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member! Next thing Other DUer will be telling you is that Obama is playing n-th dimensional chess.

Third Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Yes, or they will tell you "You never loved him".

Other DUer: WTF is going on here? When did DU become like this? Can I not even get some basic information from other DUers about what it is we know for a fact and what is being guessed at? If I am wrong can you at least point me to some info?

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: We're not going to waste our time with you Other DUer. We all know a third way Obama apologist when we see one.

Other DUer: At this point I expect Ashton Kutcher to jump out and tell me I'm being punked. Kafka himself would not believe how surreal this is.

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Other DUer, we actually care about the Constitution and Fourth amendment, we know those things don't matter to you.

Other DUer: Why stop there? Why not call me a Nazi and Stalinist while you are at it?

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: You ARE a Nazi and Stalinist. What Obama is doing is the same thing those people did.

Other DUer: Someone please wake me up and tell me DU is not really like this now.

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: You third way DLCers better get used to it. We are not going to put up with this centrist triangulation anymore.

Other DUer: Centrist triangulation? Is that what asking for facts and a reasonable dialogue is now?

Second Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: That's it, I'm adding you to my ignore list Other DUer. I have an article to write and don't have time for this.

Other DUer: Time for what? Asking for facts and more information? Oh well, I'm on her ignore list so its a waste of time to reply I guess.

Third Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Other DUer, its like this, we care about the fact that the government is spying on its citizens and you dont seem to care about that.

Other DUer: Of course I would care about that if its happening. What evidence do you have that this is happening?

Third Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: There you go again. Second Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member was right. It is a waste of time talking to you. Plonk.

Pro Snowden Hair on Fire member: Other DUer, I dont understand how you could be mad when Bush does something then totally OK with it when Obama does it.

Other DUer: I've never had a migrane before, but I think I am getting one now.

[think]

1. Great. Can we talk about the Carlyle Group and Booz Allen for awhile?

[stevenleser]

2. Sorry think, you might be totally willing to engage in good faith. I'm not willing to try at this

point. I've been worn down by nonsensical discussions just like the one I dramatized in this OP. I have no confidence that any kind of a remotely reasonable and fact based discussion will take place on anything near the NSA Surveillance topic.

[think]

5. It's all good. Didn't mean right now. Then there's Drake, Tice, Sibel Edmonds and other whistle

blowers who'd like to testify before congress without gag orders.

There is plenty to talk about other than Snowden and Greenwald....

[Voice for Peace]

18. I think I learned pretty much everything I need to know

from your post.

[reusrename]

61. I don't think you are worn down at all.

I think you just don't have any desire to comprehend what folks are trying to explain to you.

You seem bright enough.

Why revert to strawman arguments rather than addressing the issues raised by the hair-on-fire crowd?

Why not engage on the real issues?

[nenagh]

3. wow....

[railsback]

4. I've been Snowdened a few times now for not jumping on the bandwagon

After an extended long streak of freedom of speech, I suddenly became an anti-gay Republican Obamabot, sent to the Jury, who assumed the worst to pass judgement. It really was an excellent example of you all protecting my 1st and 4th Amendment rights, which are currently under assault by the Obama STASI.

[freshwest]

6. Yes, the technique is the same as I've encountered with Beckerheads. You cannot be neutral with them

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 12:46 PM - Edit history (1)

You must agree fully, enthusiastically, zealously or maniacally or you are the enemy! And you will be given no quarter. A volley of character assaults and insults will follow as sure as night after day.

[JustAnotherGen]

29. +1

[bunnies]

51. Beckerheads!

omg!

[1StrongBlackMan]

62. Question ...

How do I suddenly appear on a website with thousands of posts?

I've been around DU for years (had to create a new account a while back) and I'm seeing posters that I have never seen before, suddenly appearing with thousands of posts.

[Cha]

8. Which is a huge Fooking Insult to those who were

victims of the Stasi.

[Cha]

7. Pres Obama is playing 13th Dimensionsl Chess while

they're back hitching a ride on the Greenwald-Snowden-Assange crapmobile.

[IrishAyes]

55. And we need to have his back as promised.

Especially on a site dedicated to supporting his policies. Otherwise we might as well rip off our OFA buttons and hide under the bed until it's all over. But then it would NEVER be safe to come out. And we'd deserve the status of sheeple. I'd rather fight out in the open and let the chips fall where they may. In this particular instance, it means a faster and unflinching response to the invading enemy. Or did anyone mistake the trolls for friends or potential converts? In a pig's eye! They're sociopathic shills. Clasp a snake to our bosom and expect to be injected with their poison. I'm telling you, they ruined barackobama.com. You could hardly go near the place in a hazmat suit.

[freshwest]

9. Every HairOnFire poster you quote is spewing pure Paulbot, Libertarian talking points.

That is the ideology being pushed. I just found a great site explaining a lot of it, exactly what is in those responses. I'll send you a link and hope you have time to peruse the site.

[Number23]

63. Would love to see that link

What I find so incredibly telling is the sources some of these people use to prove their point. I mean there is no "media organization' too half assed, obscure or deranged if it supports their view.

The leader of the current gang even hilariously posted an easily identifiable hoax yesterday. And what was really so funny about that was just a few hours earlier, I had just posted in Prosense's appreciation thread about that poster's tendency to use the most absurd sources in order to promote her agenda. You truly cannot make this shit up.

[Iliyah]

10. Its also noticeable

that the pro- has tons of thread with different titles with the same subject enclosed.

There main purpose on the the DU is for everyone to distrust, hate, not believe while all along promoting their agenda - GOPer/Libertarian.

Also, two things they are concerned about, Snowden - sorta NSA and discrediting Pres O. Confirmation - their thread. How many threads do they need to spout both, tons.

[dtom67]

11. don't care about snowden OR Obama...

I DO care about the spying issue. It is a waste of time talking about either S or O. Argue for or against the spying and screw the individuals .Patriot Act and NDAA are being used to remove civil liberties. Side note: Ron and Rand Paul are psychos; please refrain from the paulbot namecalling bullshit.
It is interesting to note, however, that this post uses the term "pro Snowden" while simltaneously being very careful to use "other DUer" and not "pro Obama" for the actors in this faux exchange.

[pnwmom]

15. Snowden and Obama are not in comparable situations. Snowden is entirely responsible for his leaking.

Obama, on the other hand, has worked in conjunction with large majorities of Congress on both sides of the aisle on the Patriot Act and amendments to it.

[dtom67]

19. don't care about them....

Means that I am not interested in assigning blame. Is it not possible to object to spying w/o it being an attack on the President?
The issue is "spying",, isn't it?

[pnwmom]

22. Yes. And is it not possible to object to surveillance on Americans

but NOT to support Snowden's leaks about our spying on foreign countries?

[dtom67]

26. don't care about snowden....

Sorry, I think I said that already.
But if you MUST make this about supporting( or smearing ) some one, then I wish to throw my support behind FUTURE whistleblowers. As such, I am compelled to think about more than the CNN/FOX/BLABLA news talking points and consider that whistleblowing is important. No one, not even a soldier ( see Nuremburg trials) is obligated too carry out immoral orders. And keeping silent while your government shreds the Constitution is as immoral as it gets.
Its ok to hate snowden, but the next whistleblower might say something you want to hear. And if it appears that future whistleblowers will get the "Full Manning" treatment, then everyone will be afraid to speak out against the government.
As far as leaks about foreign Spying goes, look at the situation. We have a handfull of whistleblowers in prison. We have a Media that talks about snowden, but not the spying, so much. Sooner or later, he will be captured, tortured and imprisoned for life. OF COURSE he will be expected to leak some secrets in exchange for asylum. I'm sure the prospect of standing naked in a jail cell for a year before trial does not appeal to him. So, he leaks something a potential savior might wanna hear. Fear maks people do funny things......

[IrishAyes]

54. Fear mak(e)s people do funny things...

Like what you're doing now? Pitching a hissy fit where it doesn't belong and will only garner outrage, instead of taking it to a more appropriate arena where you might actually influence somebody? Your behavior today has not only been crass, but also counter-productive and self-defeating. Or can you understand that, because it WOULD require caring to some degree. It's like a little kid that starts to scream wildly at the fair when his parents want to eat dinner instead of taking him on the pony ride. You'll never impress anyone over the age of 12 if you insist on acting like a spoiled brat. And I for one am not an adult who lets a petulant child lead me around by the nose.

[stevenleser]

33. No, sorry, I don't think you do care about the spying issue, nor do most Hair on Fire folks...

I think if that was the main concern, there would be two things the hair on fire crowd would definitely be doing differently:

1. They would be spending a lot of time trying to find out the facts and separating the facts from suppositions so that they and everyone else who agrees with them would be armed with the best facts possible.

2. They would not attack other people who are asking for facts and information. While I dramatized this in my dialogue somewhat, it is true that merely questioning a Hair on Fire person to ask them to provide factual backup for their assertions often results in attack.

I think the above is how I would behave if I wanted to manufacture as much outrage as possible on a subject against a person or group without regard to or in spite of the facts.

[dtom67]

34. so you are saying....

that the NSA is not collecting metadata on Americans? Are you saying that a large facility is not being built in Utah to store the data? When I say that I do not care about Snowden or Obama, how is that NOT a fact?
To be perfectly frank, I believe you do not care about the facts. If you did, you would have laid them out for us by now.

in your role as a Democratic Strategist, it seems to me that you are here for damage control, not actual information sharing.

That's fine.
I got some work for ya:

Guantanamo
Torture
Corporate shill appointments
Social security chained CPI
drones strikes far less accurate than claimed. innocents killed
Prosecution of whistle blowers
Least Transparent "pro-transparency" administration ever.
NDAA
Loss of constitutionally protected rights of free speech, assembly and search and seizure.
Militarized Police force
failure to prosecute financial crimes while also having the highest incarceration rate in the world
assassination of us citizens and their family members w/o due process.
crushing of OWS
Police infiltration and the good old agent provocateur.

Add it all up and you can bet you ass I am concerned with NSA domestic activities.

have a nice day....

[Cha]

47. Your whine list shows you haven't investigated the facts. Only

talking points from those who show their ignorance by continually bringing up Guantanamo, torture, etc like they were facts instead of fiction.

.. and you be sure and have a real nice day.

[freshwest]

48. A little going away present for that real nice day:

[treestar]

38. Maybe it's because Obama is a Democrat

And this is DU.

Snowden is not a Democrat.

[freshwest]

40. And there you have it in a nutshell. I've never seen the mob say one good word about any Democrat.

Their hands would freeze at their keyboards before they could type in a word that Obama or anything in the Democratic platform is worth a dime. They are in the Libertarian cult and don't believe in the social safety net, and other liberal policies. They wave a flag in front of us about the issues, but when you get down to it, they have no root with liberals, they despise them.

The Democratic Party is the greatest threat to Libertarianism that there is. There is a reason for that. Libertarians and plutocrats are blood brothers and I'll make a thread about how Obama's agenda and thus the Democratic Party are the only solution that works for America and the world. Plutocrats will do anything to destroy that.

I'll link it here when I'm finished.

EDIT: On second thought, I'm not going to bother anymore.

[Narkos]

12. Nice work!

[Amonester]

13. You forgot "authoritarian" and "totalitarian" (and probably many others I didn't see yet) ;)

In:

"Other DUer: Why stop there? Why not call me a Nazi and Stalinist while you are at it?

Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: You ARE a Nazi and Stalinist. What Obama is doing is the same thing those people did."

Psychological projection can be revealing sometimes.



My numbers of DUers who have put me on Ignore is growing (checked it for the sadness of it).

[treestar]

37. Don't forget the Stasi!

Which envies the tools our Obamaspies have!

[SleeplessinSoCal]

14. I appreciate the effort you put into your dialogue stevenleser.

Thank you. I only dive in when I have the stomach for it.

[Just Saying]

16. Someone actually said that chess thing to me today.

I had no idea what they were talking about!

Yes, I too tried to discuss these issues and was attacked by a mob talking in code and throwing around insults.

Why bother? Life is too short.

Thanks for this!

[HiPointDem]

17. how many variations on this same op are you going to do?

[Iliyah]

20. As many as possible

its called math, you should know.

[HiPointDem]

21. no, it's called boring & baiting.

[Just Saying]

30. Or you could read what it says

And see how many boring & baiting posts qualify in GD.

[treestar]

36. If you don't want to be baited, stay out of the BOG

[HiPointDem]

45. oops. i didn't notice, my mistake.

[Iliyah]

23. No

its call life.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

24. Has meta returned? This should be locked as flamebait.

..............................

[Cha]

25. No it shouldn't. this is the Barack Obama Group

and only members who support the President are welcome here.

So you don't need to worry about flame bait with your little fishing pole.

[freshwest]

28. LOL!

[Sheepshank]

44. seriously dude...

you'd seem a little less....I dunno...like an agitator yourself had you taken the time to read the rules of this group. Silly little fly boy.

[freshwest]

49. +1

[giftedgirl77]

27. K&R

I have actually gotten jumped for providing factual evidence as to the yearly reports published by the FISA Courts as well as everything else on the matter. Facts have gone out the window

[stevenleser]

31. Facts are the declared enemy of the Hair on Fire crew.

The providing of or asking for facts in a dialogue with the Hair on Fire folks is a damnable offense.

[giftedgirl77]

43. Apparently

It is a very disturbing experience.

[hopemountain]

57. no doubt because the "facts"

point back at something done or allowed by one of their party.

[sheshe2]

32. The "name calling"

that bothers me the most are Nazi and Hitler. A poster the other day said something about being a " good little German" was to follow their fearless leader.

Not every German was a Nazi, nor did every German follow Hitler. It was a broad brush attack that was highly insulting to those of us that are of German descent!

The hate is pretty strong out there, Steven.
Thank you for your OP.

[treestar]

35. thanks for the laugh

Right on! Describes them to a T!

[IrishAyes]

39. I also just posted on the other HairOnFire OP

So my question now becomes, why is the flame throwing being tolerated in here? Who has the key? Don't you know they'll grab a mile when you give them an inch? The mods need to do their duty and clean house. Free-for-alls belong outside on the street, not in here. Frankly I'm disappointed in lax management at this point. If things are let slide long enough, it will hit rock bottom all too soon and there'll be more than enough blame to go around.

Enforce TOS or you're shooting yourself and the rest of us in the foot.

[freshwest]

50. Alas, the TOS is being decided by juries, AFAIK. The idea was that DU members would do better.

[IrishAyes]

53. It just means honest DU members are at the mercy of invading swarms of trolls sent by PigBoy

The juries are far too lenient, even outside a supposed safe haven group. They're quite capable of allowing trolls to smother this or any other group under a pile of offal, because trolls understand perfectly that if they get away with it once, they can keep on with impunity. That's no way to run a group, much less a civilization. Especially when half the jury members are likely to be trolls themselves! Did you know that subversive groups typically try to insert themselves in government bureaucracies such as the DMV's so they can track anyone they want by license plates? Etc. Rule of law means nothing to them.

My other favorite truism: Lie down with dogs, Arise with fleas.

I can't help thinking what would happen if this were going on in face-time life and goons barged into a tough union hall.

[FSogol]

41. K & R. You forgot one meme:

Other Duer: I politely disagree on this, this, and this.

Pro Snowden Hair on Fire member: You're telling me to shut up!

[freshwest]

52. And 'I always vote Democrat!' Followed by 'But here is why it makes no difference!' To which I say:

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)

[FSogol]

56. Yup and often they say, "I'm an FDR Democrat."

Great image, btw.

[Politicub]

60. Keeping the kitty graphic

[Number23]

64. No, I'll do you one better. HOF member with 39 hidden posts and 1854 people ignoring them:

"That has NOTHING to do with my numerous personal attacks, stalking, and daily announcements that I'm putting people on ignore as if anyone gives a shit. There is a concerted effort to get me kicked off of DU just for speaking the troof!!1 They just don't like that I just keep it TOO REAL!!one!"

[Major Hogwash]

65. Who was that?

Man, I don't even have 100 people ignoring me.

[Number23]

66. You haven't seen the posts from at least two of DUs most er... beloved?

Excuse me while I

Tons of hidden posts, over a hundred people ignoring one of them and according to them, it has nothing, absolutely NADA to do with their stalking, hateful, nasty, anti-social behavior including running around threads screaming "plonk!" at people they disagree with.

Oh no, it's all part of some vast DU conspiracy (probably cooked up by "authoritarians" in the BOG who know how to manipulate DU code and fix a jury) to get them kicked off of DU. They are innocent little lambs being picked on by an evil empire.

[Major Hogwash]

67. I didn't think they were in the HOF.

I've seen tons of crap from the 2 that you speak of, but there are others that are just as bad at getting along with other people at the DU.

Last year some of the other members really went after some of the members of the HOF.
So, 2 of them quit.
And that pretty much ended all of the stalking, hateful, nasty, and anti-social behavior that came from some of the members of the opposite sex who were harrassing them here.

[Number23]

68. No, no, no.. "HOF" in this thread means Hair on Fire club. Not History of Feminism

[Major Hogwash]

69. Ooooohh. I'm always the last one to know what's going on here.

[Number23]

70. Ha! I know the feeling!

[Jamaal510]

42. You know,

the irony that I see in this is when the HOF posters are calling people "authoritarian", "Nazi", "stalinist", etc. for disagreeing with them, they are kinda doing what they are supposedly decrying. They are disregarding other perspectives and the rest of the facts in a self-righteous outlook on the issues.

[JaneyVee]

46. Nailed it!

[geek tragedy]

58. "I try to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but a post on DU says burns kittens alive, so it must

be true. I am so disappointed and thinking about moving to China."

[Politicub]

59. I've been accused of being a Heritage Foundation patsy, a cockroach and "fractured in my thinking"

just today. I don't even know what fractured thinking really means in this context - unless it's contemplating a broken finger.

I think you captured most of the current DU archetypes with your dialogue! Nicely done.

[stevenleser]

71. Kick nt

[great white snark]

72. Kick. This is too good to be missed.

Excellent.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

73. stevenleser has nailed the conversation in GD as of late!

Scary part is the hire on fire crowd makes me think of talking with a FReeper.

I wonder if that crowd realizes how they sound.

[Hekate]

74. Thanks for participating in my USSR thread

Thanks to you and others here who dropped in.

It is crazy-making -- but there was one note of humor: after I told xxxxx "As long as you don't call me 'dear'..." she put me on Ignore. It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good, after all.

[Major Hogwash]

75. It was an interesting thread. My weekend movie suggestion this week is . . .

Last edited Sun Jul 14, 2013, 07:16 AM - Edit history (1)

. . . "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"
Based on the book written by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
But, that movie is not for the feint of heart.

However, it's a good movie for those people who are more interested in learning about how life was "so great" living in a gulag back in the USSR.

[Hekate]

76. I remember reading Solzhenitsyn's books as they came out in translation way back when

Scary stuff, from a guy who was right there until they exiled him and his family to the US, in lieu of sending them to Siberia to die. And some ass here had the nerve to criticize him for not being a leftist, but being motivated by religion (in their opinion, a Bad Thing). The man was very unhappy in Vermont, felt his exile keenly, and returned home when he was finally allowed to do so.

He comes from a really long line of mordant Russian authors, though: "Lower Depths" certainly doesn't bear reading on a dark night.

I think cultural characteristics don't change that much over time -- not for the Chinese, not for the Russians. Neither of those vast territories has ever experienced "democracy" and in my opinion never will. Opening them to unfettered capitalism certainly isn't the same thing, and they know it. They fall back into old cultural patterns of autocratic rulership by other names....

Yes, it certainly has been interesting seeing how little Americans who believe themselves to be so very informed (i.e. DUers) know about the other countries and cultures we share the planet with. The number of people who have put me on Ignore has increased, too.

[Major Hogwash]

77. Well, that movie is based on his book.

I had the wrong title of the movie, so I edited my post.
Don't worry about the number of people of ignoring you, there are quite a few ignorant people posting here these days.



I have more people ignoring me now, too, if it is any consolation.

[DevonRex]

78. BTW, I took your advice, finally and trashed some keywords. But couldn't reply

to you in your thread about it. I had already trashed a word that ate your thread. Now I'm too confused to figure out what did it. So here I am.

[great white snark]

79. Enjoy your weekend oh great overlord of the BOG.

I'm reading how President Obama's comments today re zimm case mean nothing because of war on drugs and NSA.

Before I get kicked off DU for profuse profanity and for finally using the word PurityBagger I will log out.

Take care DevonRex & all the BOGers!

[DevonRex]

80. You, too.

I had to either trash topics or leave DU. Seriously. So I know how you feel. Take care and watch something fun on TV. Something silly. Or get outside if you can. Clear your head. I'll be taking this advice myself.

Then I'll find an organization to work with for SYG repeal.

We can hold each other up here when we get tired, encourage each other like you just did for me. Thank you so much!