This message was self-deleted by its author

[Bonobo]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Bonobo) on Wed Jan 30, 2019, 01:56 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Major Nikon]

1. It's sloganeering

The purpose of sloganeering is really to congeal those whose attention span doesn't extend past what will fit on a bumper sticker allows such people to propagate these thoughtless messages easily so they can all pat each other on the back for doing something even if they haven't.

[leftyohiolib]

2. felt the same way about the other one floating around here. the one that shows a woman passed out

on a couch and a gut says something like she's passed out and i can do what ever i want then covers her up with a blanket put water and asprin on a table next to her

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Unfortunately- this has already started, I think- this OP is likely to be misrepresented

around this site as "rape apologia", and the like, when clearly it is nothing of the sort.

So in that vein, I'm not participating because I have no interest in furthering the gender wars which seem to periodically plague this site. I will reiterate the salient point from my post above, which is:

If this campaign prevents a single rape, it's worth it.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Oh, and one more thing.

The words people try to put in my mouth are their problem, not mine.

[seabeyond]

4. kick ass video. i am stealing. thanks. i love it. nt

[Bonobo]

9. Thanks, I hope you actually read my OP.

And you know, didn't ignore the part where I talk about how important it is to be actively trying to prevent rape as well as supporting victims of rape.

But, you probably don't care about that part, I guess.

Doesn't fit the "narrative".

[oneshooter]

5. Alert result.

At Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:36 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Why this "Don't Rape Her" PSA is stupid and insulting.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111411093

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Complainig about PSA's targeting rape prevention is dispicable. The real question is why would anyone who isn't a rapist object to rape prevention. Using a group to attack efforts to stop rape violates standards of any community of decent human beings.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:48 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If you don't like what the post says, then argue against it. Don't expect a jury to simply hide it because you can't or won't argue any of the points made. Get a thicker skin, or use the trash button.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The post expresses an OPINION and invites discussion.
So post your comment and change the poster's mind.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Poster is not violating rules and is giving a well-thought out opinion. Agree with it or don't, but there is no attack on any group, other than a disagreement with said group's PSA.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Agreed; people who post lengthy rants complaining about PSAs like this are why they're necessary.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Major Nikon]

16. Thanks for the info. Always amusing to see what the alert trolls are up to

[NuclearDem]

8. The PSA is obviously aimed at male college studenrs

And since I would hazard to guess most rapes on campus occur at parties or in situations with alcohol, I don't see how defining these situations as rape is such a bad thing.

[LanternWaste]

10. Seems almost as insulting as "please be careful of others" sign at the local swimming pool.

Seems almost as insulting as "please be careful of others" sign at the local swimming pool.

[Bonobo]

14. Rape is not an accident.

You don't rape someone by "not being careful."

Rape is an intentional act.

Bumping into someone while running poolside is an accident.

See the difference?

[opiate69]

11. Looks like the troops have been alerted...

[loli phabay]

13. it is a plague i tell you.

[opiate69]

46. And, it just continues to grow....

[loli phabay]

12. we should set up a pool for when the first ask the admin question gets posted on this op

Seems the pattern goes, post complaint, alert on post, post to ask the admin, then complain when results dont go as planned. Lather rinse repeat.

[opiate69]

15. What's especially amusing is when..

After not getting their way, they throw a tantrum worthy of a 2 year old, and wind up getting hidden for not being able to remain civil towards Skinner, of all people...

[loli phabay]

17. on a side note added a couple of pics to the profile on the other site

See what you guys think.

[opiate69]

24. Cool! I'll have to scope it out in a few

[mercuryblues]

19. wow

It must make *SOME* men feel like the shit in a kitty litter box to mock a rape PSA. I mean why else would this OP be allowed to stand for debate?

How nice it must be to be so perfect in manliness that a person does not even think for one minute that perhaps this might, just might strike a chord in someone, who has not had such loving and caring parents to teach them that other people do not exist for their pleasure.

How nice it must be to live in a world where this does not exist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023990549

or this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125525314

or this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023436477

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125525070

or this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022678187

How fucking nice it must feel to know you never will be a victim of these horrendous crimes. Why if I were a man, I would mock rape PSA's all over the place, because rape would not concern me.

[Bonobo]

20. I am not mocking it. I am calling it out as insulting, useless BS.

"If you are walking down a street and see a woman, don't rape her."

Yeah, nice PSA.

As if "rape" is something like that and a "rapist" is someone who is just going "ho hum, la di da, Oh! It's a hot chick! Rape or not rape, lemme think..."

AND seeing this "PSA" will make them remember "Oh, that's right, I'm not SUPPOSED to rape. I thought it was like okay until I saw that."

Get serious. It is a serious issue. Not a vehicle for insulting men.

[mercuryblues]

21. you are mocking

Would you even debate an African American if they told you that wearing a blackface for Halloween is racist?

Your OP is mocking. It is appalling that someone on DU would even think that mocking a rape PSA is acceptable and obnoxious that a jury let it stand as a "debate".

[Bonobo]

22. It is NOT a PSA aimed at preventing rape, that's the thing.

It is intended as a commentary to criticize PSA's (actual HELPFUL PSAs) that warn women not to put themselves in vulnerable situations.

Now THAT is offensive, striking at PSAs which are of actual use against rape.

Through the looking glass for the sake of making a political point and actually damaging the cause they claim to be fighting for --that's sad.

[mercuryblues]

23. yes it is

It is aimed at preventing rape and you are mocking it. Does it make you feel like a real man to mock rape PSA's?

[Bonobo]

26. No, it really is not.

And I am not mocking it, I am explicating.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3992426

Please read the above link where a prominent feminist admits the purpose of it -which is NOT to prevent rape - but to make a statement on other PSAs.

"It's meant as a counter point to the PSAs directed at victims their drinking, going out at night, etc. Rather than blaming the victim, it says don't rape. It's not really informative, but the message that rapists rather than victims are responsible is a good one."

[mercuryblues]

28. Oh, if I just

read your liks I will change my mind and magically agree with you. Bullpucky.

You are mocking it with your op. Plain and simple.

[Bonobo]

30. No, I am not mocking it. I am criticizing it. AND it is not a PSA.

You don't have to follow the link. I posted the comment in the body of the message.

Keep your eyes shut if it makes it easier to believe your own nonsense.

[mercuryblues]

32. yes

because refusing to see you are mocking an anti rape psa is what? being open minded? having empathy? Nope you prefer to stay in your own world where mocking it is you right and if others don't see it your way, they are closing their eyes.

You are right. I must be a closed eyed, refusing to see that mocking is a perfectly acceptable way to treat rape.
Do you have any other debate to back up your belief that mocking is the way to go here?

What other serious issues can people mock? Is mocking a Boston marathon runner acceptable? How about mocking Treyvon Martin. Can we mock PSa's about drunk driving? How about the PSA's about texting and driving?

[Bonobo]

33. Your getting rather repetitive.

1. It is NOT a PSA. It is a critique of actual PSAs.

2. I am objecting to it, not mocking it.

SO... your bizarre tantrum about what else I would mock is rather silly.

[mercuryblues]

36. is it

or is it not a PSA? You have said it is and isn't.

But let's go with your stance that it is not now a PSA. You are still mocking the message. Does the message offend you?

[mercuryblues]

34. please make up your mind

is it or is it not a PSA?

your own thread title calls it a PSA:

Why this "Don't Rape Her" PSA is stupid and insulting.

now you say:

AND it is not a PSA.

[Bonobo]

39. OK. It is NOT a PSA.

At first I thought it was, now I am convinced it really is not one by any reasonable definition of a PSA.

[mercuryblues]

41. oh

but the message is still okay to mock. Do you find all anti-rape messages offensive or just the ones aimed at men?

[Bonobo]

43. You're being ridiculous.

I am not mocking as I have said.

As a warning, I will be blocking you momentarily if you don't stop with the "When did you stop beating your wife style" comments.

Either discuss this, or don't.

But you are not being reasonable, respectful or fair.

I won't repeat the warning.

[mercuryblues]

55. Well I guess I

have been warned.

Why do you feel the need to mock a rape PSA, or not a psa depending on your mood. Yes, your OP is mocking. It is an attempt to un-blur the line of consent for those who don't understand. Too many people would like those lines to remain blurred as a way to justify their behavior.

I have been nothing but reasonable, respectful and fair. Perhaps you are projecting your actions. I don't find mocking an anti rape message as very respectful.

How would a PSA or not a PSA directed towards men have to be worded to not offend you enough to mock it?

[Bonobo]

56. But I have told you that I am not mocking it.

I wrote a considered OP listing my reasons that it is offensive.

You are entitled to disagree with them, but you will not come in here and characterize me as mocking the subject of rape itself.

I never have and never will do that.

[mercuryblues]

60. what you

consider a reasoned Op comes off as mocking. A PSA that attempts to un-blur the line of consent is offensive to you.

You are aware of the study done about college students admit to rape as long as it is not called rape?

. . .In a survey of male college students: 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it. One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/vaw02/csascope.html

[Bonobo]

61. Yes, and I would like to see that issue addressed.

Something serious and not "If you see a woman on the street, don't rape her."

Seriously, do YOU think that is meaningful in any way?

Rape is not an accident.

[mercuryblues]

62. unfortunately

education has to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Every single time. Just when it seems as if there may be some headway, someone throws up their hands and says, I am not like A B or C so this message is offensive to me. Instead of freaking realizing that yeah, there is a problem and because I am not like that, I can be part of the solution. Criticizing, demeaning and being offended are not part of the solution.

[Bonobo]

64. The lowest common denominator is saying to EVERY MAN that

"when you walk down the street and see a woman, don't rape her."?

Sorry, I cannot agree.

[Major Nikon]

63. Anti-rape ads that portray women as "asking for it" are mocked by feminists quite often

Good intentions are not the only consideration.

[Bonobo]

65. Not to mention adds that offer sensible preventative measures.

When an ad says "don't walk alone in a dark place" or "don't leave your drink unattended", these are derided by rad-fems as "blaming the victim".

How is THAT being part of a practical solution?

Seems more like it is people letting the rhetoric INTERFERE with reasonable preventative measures, no?

Telling someone to lock their door at night to prevent a break in is not blaming a homeowner for a break in.

[mercuryblues]

66. Yes

sensible measures that every women are already aware of, yet somehow rape still exists. It also has the backlash of implying that if a person does go to a party and drinks that they are also at fault for being raped.

It also leads to, she didn't deserve to get raped, but she was drinking. It enables the offender to say well she was drunk and doesn't remember.

Serena Williams:

We watch the news for a while, and the infamous Steubenville rape case flashes on the TV—two high school football players raped a 16-year-old, while other students watched and texted details of the crime. Serena just shakes her head. "Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know. I'm not blaming the girl, but if you're a 16-year-old and you're drunk like that, your parents should teach you—don't take drinks from other people. She's 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn't remember? It could have been much worse. She's lucky. Obviously I don't know, maybe she wasn't a virgin, but she shouldn't have put herself in that position, unless they slipped her something, then that's different."

right here on DU a poster wrote this about the Stubenville case:

I am blaming her for getting drunk. (to be fair the poster who said that also blamed the offenders drinking for the raping)

On fox news

A defense attorney named Joseph DiBenedetto appeared on Fox News yesterday and essentially blamed the two girls, claiming they were virtually asking for it when they joined the two older boys and let them ply them with alcohol.

Clearly the message needs to be heard that a person's drinking is not an invitation to be raped.

[arcane1]

38. "The message that rapists rather than victims are responsible is a good one."

I, as a man, totally agree with that message.

[Bonobo]

40. That's like agreeing that water is wet. nt

[arcane1]

44. And sometimes, very stupid people need to be reminded of that.

Hence this video.

I really don't see what the big deal is. The video insults rapists. How can a non-rapist be offended? We make justifiable jokes about republicans here every single day. Should we stop doing that too?

[Bonobo]

45. It is NOT that big of a deal

and neither is my critique.

It is a small OP on an even smaller group.

I may well ask what is so offensive about my critiquing the tone of the fake PSA?

[davidpdx]

25. I don't know how much I want to weigh into this

because people tend to exaggerate what others have to say and then it gets plain ugly.

My three thoughts are:

1) The video really has a limited focus as it was made for a specific university.. It's not like it is a state or national PSA.

2) It's not particularly well done technically, it's amateurish.

3) At least one of the guys in that video gives me the creeps (and I'm a guy).

Other than that, I guess I don't have an opinion one way or the other.

[Bonobo]

27. Correct. It is NOT a PSA.

PSA = Public SERVICE announcement.

This is political commentary done poorly.

[davidpdx]

29. Now, I'm not trying to tell you how to make your argument

But you could try to find something to compare it to in order to make your point.

BTW I read through the entire thread first, then watched the video. It was much more interesting to hear all the comments and take a look at it.

[ZombieHorde]

31. I'm sorry you were exposed to an anti-rape PSA.

Your town may have support groups for men who were subjected to the horrors of anti-rape PSAs. I wish you strength during this trying time.

[Bonobo]

47. Pffft. Straw. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

48. I am surprised by your callous and nasty remarks.

We may not always agree, but you have always been civil.

[ZombieHorde]

49. It is an anti-rape video.

If the video said, "If you see a gay man, don't gay bash him," would anyone here be terribly offended?

If the video said, "If you see a Middle Eastern man at the airport, don't racially profile him," would anyone here be terribly offended?

If the video said, "If you see a Jewish man, don't yell anti-Sematic slurs at him," would anyone here be terribly offended?

[Behind the Aegis]

50. If it said....

"If the video said, "Straights, if you see a gay man, don't gay bash him," would anyone here be terribly offended?

Jews, if you see a Middle Eastern man at the airport, don't racially profile him," would anyone here be terribly offended?"

If the video said, "Muslims, if you see a Jewish man, don't yell anti-Sematic slurs at him," would anyone here be terribly offended? "

[ZombieHorde]

51. The video doesn't say "Men, ...." nt

[Behind the Aegis]

52. But they are the only ones stating it, aren't they?

BTW, that message would have resonated with my rapist as I am male. Guess I don't matter. Maybe it wasn't really rape, since you know, I am gay.

[ZombieHorde]

53. If you're looking for homophobia, you will be hard pressed to find it from me.

I was molested by a woman when I was a child, so I know first hand women sometimes commit sexual assault against men, however, the extreme vast majority of rapes, outside of prison, are male against female. I don't know the sex of the person(s) who raped you, but I do know male rape is rarely talked about, except for when the victim is a child. The media on the subject usually focuses solely on the majority of the cases.

Most rape prevention media focuses on telling women how to be safer, which has the same problem as the above video, since men are not women, but I don't see these types of videos being called out for only focusing on women's safety, as opposed to the safety of all genders and sexes. When these types of videos are called out, it is because they place all of the burden on the victims of sexual assault.

[Behind the Aegis]

54. No, I was just using your passive-aggressive technique.

"I do know male rape is rarely talked about, except for when the victim is a child."

And that is part of my point! Prevention PSA's should focus on stopping rape. PERIOD! This one, like your earlier remarks, focus on one target group (think Muslims are the only ones who are profiled?), and one perpetrator (did you know that most anti-Semitism actually doesn't come from Muslims?). I don't have a problem with PSA's that are specific, even to gender, but the point that Bonobo was making is he didn't feel it was effective and was a poor PSA. You made it a personal attack on his opinions that he is some woman-hating asshole without offering up so much as a rebuttal, which is my second, and primary point in my first post to you.

I will add, not only is male rape rarely discussed, it is often ridiculed (even for male children ("Oh, how lucky to have that hot teacher bone him!&quot ). It's even worse, IMO, for gay men (we were asking for it, and yes that has been said to me). Finding a PSA lacking doesn't indicate one thinks female survivors are less than or that male rape is more deserving of attention.

[ZombieHorde]

72. "You made it a personal attack on his opinions that he is some woman-hating asshole"

I teased him for being insulted by the video, but I did not claim he hated women or that he was an asshole, and I don't think either of those things about him. The "attacks" made in the video and the those specific "attacks" from my posts are completely imaginary, and have no more validity than homeopathic medicine. People are seeing specters, but specters don't exist.

I will add, not only is male rape rarely discussed, it is often ridiculed (even for male children ("Oh, how lucky to have that hot teacher bone him!&quot ).

I completely agree.

It's even worse, IMO, for gay men (we were asking for it, and yes that has been said to me).

I didn't know about this, and I find it offensive and disturbing. You did not deserve to be raped.

Finding a PSA lacking doesn't indicate one thinks female survivors are less than or that male rape is more deserving of attention.

This is not a claim that I have made, and this doesn't represent my views.

[Major Nikon]

59. So why are you so offended by victim oriented rape prevention media?

After all it's just anti-rape media, yes?

[ZombieHorde]

70. For a while, all rape prevention seemed to be victim oriented,

and it seemed like victim blaming.

[Major Nikon]

73. You mean like this...

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention

Like Bonobo mentioned, telling someone to lock their doors at night is not blaming victims of break-ins. Mocking the efforts of organizations like RAINN actually does have a negative effect on rape prevention.

[Major Nikon]

58. If the video said....

"If you see a baby, don't drown it in the bathtub" would women be terribly offended?

Of course they would and rightly so.

[ZombieHorde]

69. Has there been an epidemic of babies being drowned in bathtubs?

I know it has happened, but it doesn't seem to be an everyday thing here in the US.

[Major Nikon]

74. No analogy is a direct comparison

There were plenty of dissimilarities in your analogies as well. Should we pick those apart too?

If you want an example that meets your tangential criteria, how about a video aimed at a minority group telling them to just don't steal cars? Would that be offensive enough for you?

Interestingly you seem to get that it's a bad idea to profile Muslims, yet you are perfectly OK with profiling men. Seems like a pretty good example of doublethink.

[ZombieHorde]

75. The profiling is in your mind, not the video. nt

[Major Nikon]

78. So is doublethink

[ZombieHorde]

82. The doublethink is in your mind, and not the video?

I don't know what you're trying to communicate here.

[Major Nikon]

87. Sure you do

You're just being disingenuous.

[ZombieHorde]

100. I know you think that I suport profiling men, and not muslims,

and you consider that doublespeak, but I don't know what your comment meant.

[Major Nikon]

102. Then you should think about it more

[ZombieHorde]

109. I should probably think about everything more. nt

[MadrasT]

76. "Men" are not a minority group.

This analogy seems ridiculous to me.

[Major Nikon]

77. So it's OK to discriminate against men?

You do realize the Civil Rights Act is gender neutral, yes?

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. ... unless one owns a dictionary.

There are 17% more women than men in the United States.

[opiate69]

88. !

[loli phabay]

105. did you check out my new profile pic.

[opiate69]

106. No.. I lost the damn url.. Can you remind me in PM?

Recently changed devices, so I lost a bunch of my stuff..

[loli phabay]

104. rofl, rapier like

[Major Nikon]

57. Did you come here to address the OP comments or just to denigrate the poster?

If you want to discuss the bullets, then feel free to do so. If you just want to shit in your hand and throw it at someone, GD would be a much better fit for you.

Just sayin'

[arcane1]

35. This 46 year-old man has no problem with it.

If anything it ostracizes the rapist, showing the majority of young men who would never do such a thing how absurd the rapist mindset is. The guy in one's social group who needs this kind of brick-over-the-head clue has now been outed as the utter fool he is.

I don't see the problem. It's not as though one single video message will eliminate rape. The topic must be approached from many perspectives, including this one. My niece is 19 and living in a dorm. I have no problem with the guys on her campus seeing this video. It's certainly better than nothing.

The hard truth is that most old men walking down the street with a thick wallet get mugged by other men. I don't like it. I don't like being part of those statistics, but they are there whether I like them or not.

A short video that says "rape is uncool" is not that big a deal.

[mercuryblues]

37. thank you

[HuskiesHowls]

42. 15 seconds of it was plenty enough for me.

I agree with you. I saw this elsewhere, and declined the opportunity to either watch the video, or even comment on the thread because I knew that my comment would not be welcome.

I found it, in what little I watched, to be demeaning, and very immature. I believe that most of the women I know would feel the same way. It makes the assumption that we are not thinking, reasoning beings, that we are guided solely by animal instinct. For some people, that is true, but they're not going to be watching that video. Even my dogs put more thought into what they're doing, than that video gives humans credit for.

[jeff47]

67. Ya know, I don't think I've seen a dumber argument on DU.

No really. This is quite an achievement. I mean, we've got people claiming GMOs are going to turn us all into zombies, but you've managed to top them.

1. Anyone that would listen to this message is already NOT going to be a rapist and anyone that is going to be a rapist is not going to listen to this message.

Because we all appear on this planet as fully-formed adults, and never change our opinions on any subject. Ever.

2. In targeting "reasonable" men for this "message", it sends the subtext that "regular, reasonable men" are also the ones doing the raping. I reject this and I do not believe it is true. A rapist is a criminal and a subset of scumbag. It is NOT a regular guy.

In fantasy land.

Your image of a rapist is a man lurking in the bushes, hunting for a woman to grab and then rape in an alley. Guess what? Most rapes aren't that. Most rapes are committed by men who are normally 'reasonable'. They aren't evil beasts, nor is it something comes over them, it's that they've decided that they are more important than the woman, or that she'll like it after he's started. Frequently he'll get into this situation due to alcohol or peer pressure.

3. In the way the message sets up regular situations, such as "If you are walking down the street and see a pretty woman, don't rape her." there is an implication that we the receiver of the PSA is normally confronted with an internal conflict as to whether or not to rape.

Because, again, you have this image of a rapist popping out of the shadows and attacking. While "just walking down the street" is probably hyperbole, the process of committing a rape usually starts in normal, everyday situations. Say, a party.

Personally, I have never felt any inclination, not even a LITTLE, to even CONSIDER rape -and so the "NEED" for such an obvious message is itself a passive aggressive attack.

You aren't everyone.

Shocking, I know. It's really difficult to come to terms with the idea that everyone does not think exactly as you do, but you'll get there.

Oh, and if you've never had that thought, why are you assuming they are talking about you? If you see an ad on TV for a medication you don't need, do you fly into a rage over the pharmaceutical company insinuating that you have erectile dysfunction? Or "not so fresh" days?

no need to say to a man: "If...don't rape." anymore than there is a need to say "If... don't kill" or "If...don't steal.

Sweet! Murder and theft are no more!

Oh wait....

As such, I am as certain they will not rape as I am that they will not commit other crimes such as murder, arson or assault...The implication that rape is something that boys will do unless explicitly told not to is not true and it is an offensive belief.

Wow, you're working very hard to be offended.

My son is 2 months old, so I'm going to have to wait a bit for this subject. But he'll be getting told not to rape, even if he's a saint.

Why? Because the vast majority of rapes are committed by otherwise "good" men who decided that "Don't! Stop!" would change to "Don't stop!" like in the media. It's important to counter that message. But that's the smaller reason to talk about it.

Much more importantly, even if he's not going to rape anyone it's important to discuss the culture surrounding rape and it's effects on women. Because even if your son thinks rape is an abhorrent act, he will live in a world with an awful lot of "rape culture". And it's pretty likely that he'll know a rapist or a victim.

And it's after the rape that the woman suffers most of the psychological damage. Remember the recent cases of high school girls being drugged and raped? It's the cries of "slut!" afterwards that cause far more harm. It is likely he will meet victims of rape, and it's likely that his peers will be chanting "slut!". It's important for him to understand what that does, instead of being just what "everyone else is doing".

Or more succinctly, your "don't rape" talk is not a literal instruction. It's an introduction to the subject.

5. Much more effective would be urging men and women to be on the lookout for friends (and strangers) before the rape occurs and to be courageous and brave in fighting for the rights of victims of rape after it occurs as well.

Yeah, that's what's been done for the last few decades. Has rape stopped? No? Well maybe it's not quite so effective.

And warning her that she might be exposing her to danger is no more blaming the victim than it would be to warn the old man that he is in danger.

Because neither one is a victim yet. Once she is raped, or the man is robbed, your warnings are a transfer of blame - You warned her not to wear that outfit...

Oh, and again you are still stuck on the image of rapists lurking in the shadows. They're far more likely to be the woman's boyfriend or other acquaintance. Because he was a 'nice guy' up until he decided to rape her.

[Major Nikon]

79. If you are going to call another argument dumb, you may want to do a better job of forming yours

Because we all appear on this planet as fully-formed adults, and never change our opinions on any subject. Ever.

What does this have to do with the text you quoted?

Strawman.

In fantasy land.

Your image of a rapist is a man lurking in the bushes, hunting for a woman to grab and then rape in an alley. Guess what? Most rapes aren't that. Most rapes are committed by men who are normally 'reasonable'. They aren't evil beasts, nor is it something comes over them, it's that they've decided that they are more important than the woman, or that she'll like it after he's started. Frequently he'll get into this situation due to alcohol or peer pressure.

The OP never claimed or even suggested such an image.

Strawman.

Because, again, you have this image of a rapist popping out of the shadows and attacking. While "just walking down the street" is probably hyperbole, the process of committing a rape usually starts in normal, everyday situations. Say, a party.

The video made that implication, not the OP.

Strawman.

Wow, you're working very hard to be offended.

Whether you realize it or not, assuming an entire class of people has a criminal proclivity is offensive. Examples of this with other classes are not hard to find and are routinely regarded as offensive. Offending the demographic you are trying to 'educate' is counterproductive.

Yeah, that's what's been done for the last few decades. Has rape stopped? No? Well maybe it's not quite so effective.

Sexual assault has fallen by more than 50% in recent years.2

Had the 1993 rate held steady, about 9.7 million Americans would have been assaulted in the last 20 years.

Thanks to the decline, the actual number of victims was about 4.2 million. In other words, if not for the progress we've made in the last 20 years, an additional 5.5 million Americans would have become victims of sexual violence.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

Because neither one is a victim yet. Once she is raped, or the man is robbed, your warnings are a transfer of blame - You warned her not to wear that outfit...

This argument has no more merit than those who blame victims and uses the exact same failed reasoning. Reducing risk is part and parcel to rape prevention just as it is with all sorts of crimes.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention

Oh, and again you are still stuck on the image of rapists lurking in the shadows.

Strawman.

[jeff47]

84. I stand corrected. You've managed an even dumber post.

What does this have to do with the text you quoted?

No, the poster claimed that "good" men never have to learn not to rape. Be that learning from direct instruction or be that something they extrapolate from other lessons.

To call this a strawman is to desperately run away from the OP's argument.

The OP never claimed or even suggested such an image.

Except that none of is "don't get raped"-based solutions make any sense if he didn't have such an image in mind. There is no action a woman can take to protect herself when a "good boyfriend" turns out to be a rapist. It has nothing to do with the clothes she's wearing, or what she drinks, or her actions.

So either the OP is proposing really stupid solutions that can never address the problem, or he has such an image in mind.

The video made that implication, not the OP.

Strawman.

You're going to have to pick one. Either there is no implication about "leaping from the shadows" in the OP, or the video, and thus the OP, imply "leaping from the shadows".

Btw, nice job destroying your own position in two adjacent sentences.

Whether you realize it or not, assuming an entire class of people has a criminal proclivity is offensive.

Are you deeply offended when erectile dysfunction ads come on TV? They're assuming you have erectile dysfunction, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to sell you their medication.

Wait, that would be insanely stupid? So's getting upset that this video is talking to potential rapists while not being one.

Sexual assault has fallen by more than 50% in recent years.

You mean in the years after we stopped only blaming women for "asking for it?" In other words, by doing exactly what this video is trying to do?

Thanks for making their point.

This argument has no more merit than those who blame victims and uses the exact same failed reasoning.

Yes, clearly we know better than rape victims how this affects rape victims.

Oh wait, that would be almost as stupid as assuming the video is personally directed at you.

[Major Nikon]

86. If you want to sling shit, GD is the place for you

Not here.

This is twice you've called other posters' posts dumb.

Now you get a warning. You can either tone down the rhetoric or leave. Your choice.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

81. "But he'll be getting told not to rape, even if he's a saint."

And what if he looks at you, like you have three heads, and says "Dad, WHY would you ever think you need to tell me that? Do you think I'm a bad person?"....are you going to tell him to shut up and stop being a whiny, misogynistic asshole? Because that's apparently what that is if he says that. At least so I've learned here.

[jeff47]

83. Shockingly enough, kids are not nearly as stupid as the op.

What the kid would actually say is "I know". Not take it as a personal attack.

And again, it's the start of the conversation. Not the entirety. If you can't think of how this conversation would last more than two sentences, you really shouldn't be parenting.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

85. Well, my parents never had to tell me that....

....and I've never raped anyone or thought of it. Mainly because we were able to have conversations about all sorts of real world shit from the time I was very young without them condescending to me.

So there's that.

[Bonobo]

94. If you think your kid could be a rapist...

Without explicitly saying "If you see a woman walking down the street, don't rape her"...

Then you have done a piss-poor job at parenting in general and YOU really shouldn't be parenting.

The proof of my parenting is in the results.

I'm sorry you have so little faith in your own children.

That is NOT how parenting is done. It is done by setting an example, not be saying "don't do something".

[opiate69]

95. This, times a google.

[Bonobo]

96. My kids know all sorts of things I did not have to put explicitly.

They know not to steal.

They know not to murder.

They know not to hurt others.

They know to think of other people's feelings and needs and treat them as important.

They know not to destroy property.

They know not to use words to hurt or hands to hurt.

And no, they did not learn this by me explicitly saying those things.

They learned because I modeled good behavior by being a good man, by being an adult.

[opiate69]

97. Ditto that....

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. The whole thing looks and sounds glib and tongue-in-cheek.

The guys in the video appear to be having a difficult time keeping a straight face - with some justification.

As noted upthread, the point isn't to deter people from raping, it's intended as a political point to turn the tables on people who would place the entire burden for preventing rape onto women.

Seriously, anyone who thinks that any appreciable number of viewers will have some "Oh shit! Maybe I shouldn't rape!" epiphany as a result of watching it is far, far downslope beyond foolish.

[hrmjustin]

71. Group that made this PSA:

Men Advocating Responsible Conduct (MARC) is a group of students at the Florida State University who seek to educate their peers concerning the importance of appropriate and responsible behavior.

The Mission of MARC is to raise awareness about the socialization of men and the cultural issues of sexism and gender violence. Through advocacy, education and training we are committed to creating a campus culture in which gender equality and respect prevail.

Members of MARC include undergraduate and graduate students of Florida State University who demonstrate strong leadership skills and who exhibit a sincere interest in addressing issues such as sexual assault on college campuses. If you are interested in becoming a member of MARC, simply fill out and submit the application form to MARC and meet with the director for an informal interview.

Campus Partners

Victim Advocate Program
Dean of Sudents Department
Division of Student Affairs

http://sga.fsu.edu/marc/

[Major Nikon]

103. Some seem to think it's significant that a group of men made the video

[hrmjustin]

111. I think people care more that it works. Rape is a major problem in this society and we need to

end it. I am grateful to the makers of this film that they took on this issue. I don't know how anyone could be offended by a video that aims to prevent rape.

[Major Nikon]

112. Jeff's response was spot on. You can view it at post#68.

The cause doesn't justify the means. If anything I believe the video is counterproductive to what you think the goal is. Insulting your target audience is just going to turn them off from any PSA on the subject, but I doubt the authors put that much thought into it.

Here's what an intelligent and well thought out rape PSA for men looks like:

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention/men-can-help

[hrmjustin]

113. You don't have to like it. It is not going to be pleasant talking about it.

I think it is fine.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Actually, that's kind of the point of advertising.

You tell people something that gets them in a frame of mind to listen to what you're saying.

I don't think it was written for men. I think it was written to make women nod.

[hrmjustin]

116. I think it should make both men and women nod. I was nodding when I heard it.

[hrmjustin]

114. I saw a statistic that 1 in 5 women in this nation are raped. I think we can get over this video.

I don't find it insulting at all.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. I still say, if the PSA prevents a single rape, it's worth it.

But my initial impression of this OP was that I felt it was criticizing the effectiveness of the PSA, not the concept of PSAs targeting rapists itself.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that you are saying that, quote, "the worst thing about rape is not the crime or the harm to victims, it's that a man might be exposed to a PSA that mentions men and rape in the same 60 seconds"



I can't believe it!!! You're actually saying, here, that that is THE WORST THING ABOUT RAPE.



That's what you're saying, isnt it! I mean, it must be in there, in what you've written.. maybe in invisible ink, you fiend!



In your OP, sir! It's right there, in black and white, you can't run from your own words... they're there, you said them, you said them, you said THATS THE WORST THING ABOUT RAPE, you cad!



DEFEND YOUR WORDS, YOUUUU!!!!!!


ps:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[Bonobo]

90. Without a doubt that is true. Nt

I hope that the BitterBelabored screeching being done can help to drown out the moaning of whatever demons are haunting her tortured soul.

But lying about me and saying I don't care about rape is really shady, sleazy behavior.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. First time in a decade, I'm blocking someone from PMing me.

because

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

92. Apparently someone has time for it

A LOT of it.

[Bonobo]

93. Did she really send you a PM that said "Fuck you"?

I would report BB for that. It is abusive and the Admins should be told.

Really shows her character.

[opiate69]

98. Well.. Those who were paying attention...

Already have evidence *coughdogslifecough* of this alleged character... But yeah.. We're the immature ones...

[Warren DeMontague]

99. To be fair, it was concise, and to the point.

And it's said that brevity is the soul of wit--- so it scored in that respect.

It's funny, though, supposedly people in this group are "angry" and "whining". I don't know, I don't think I whine, much, and I don't really think my posts are angry.

Mostly, with certain behaviors and persons on DU, at this point my attitude cycles between bemused and bored. I've been at this long enough to take away what's valuable, and not take the rest all that serious-like.

[Bonobo]

101. The "whine" phrase is an intentionally sexist attempt at belittling men.

That is all it is and it is obvious as all fuck.

It is also nauseatingly hypocritical.

[Warren DeMontague]

117. In case no one caught it the first 5 times:

... keep it up, gang. I'm sure no one will notice.

[Major Nikon]

108. That one also shares attributes with Dorthy's other traveling companions

Just sayin'

[TreasonousBastard]

107. Here we go again...

I, too, find the video fatuous and silly, but then wonder what's the point of attacking it so meticulously...

Someone kinda, accidentally I think, pointed out that it makes sense if watched with the understanding that rape isn't just jumping out of the bushes and there's date rape and other nastiness out there that could use some reminding. This video, however, doesn't really make that clear by itself and might be better with some definitions.

Be all that may be, though, the OP got the expected (but what I hope was not the intended) result and there is little talk and understanding between parties that essentially agree but just have to go to battle on some sort of bizarre principle. Happens a lot around here. No doubt soon enough we'll hear of someone with the vapours who just can't handle the trauma any more.

Someone got a "Fuck you" PM? Over this thread? I thought the MRA accusations were strange enough. I'm not a fan of banning because of a momentarily heated comment, but perhaps medication, or at least some bed rest, is in order...

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Yeah.

But I think recent history has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone could start a thread in here about Mouse Farts in Antarctica and within 3 hours elsewhere on this site it would be reported in breathless tones about the new level of outrage implied by the mouse farts thread.

The Hot Celebrity thread is, of course, a classic example- particularly when people who admittedly have no problem with hot celebrities pretended to freak out like it was the greatest offense to humanity the Earth had ever seen.

"the mens group has got to gooooooooooo"

[LanternWaste]

118. Much as a "Swimmers: please be careful, don't run and stay safe" sign at a swimming pool is insultin

Much as a "Swimmers: please be careful, don't run and stay safe" sign at a swimming pool is insulting.

1. Anyone reading this is already not going to be uncareful.

2. In targeting swimmers, it sends the subtext that only swimmers are not being careful.

3. It implies the subtext that regular swimmers is normally confronted with a choice of being careful or not.

4. I have never explicit told my children to act without regards for safety at the pool. The implication that ignoring safety is something that swimmers will do unless explicitly told not to is not true and it is an offensive belief.





Good Christ.

[LanternWaste]

119. Much as 'No spitting or blowing nose in the pool' is insulting to swimmers, eh?

For the precise same reasons you imagined.