Circumcision discussion

[Bonobo]

Since women don't have penises, are their opinions as valid (based on experience) as say, a man's opinions about vaginal health?

And yes, circumcision is very often a health issue since non-circumcised penises face greater chance for ailments such as inflammatory dermatoses (balanitis), HIV and other STDs, not to mention social acceptability (from both men and women varying depending on your micro-culture). These are things MEN experience in their lives and, like issues relating to women's bodies, are best understood by men.

P.S> This was locked in GD as flame bait... Is this flame bait?

[Bonobo]

2. I think I just got a jury that hates me.

I've always been someone who is either loved or hated in equal measure and equal intensity.

I embrace my enemies. I sup on their vexations and drink their tears.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

3. Seriously....hidden?

Whomever alerted is an asshole. A giant fucking one.

Hide that. I don't care. Supposedly they don't come in here anyway.

[Bonobo]

5. Seriously though, in a way I DO embrace it.

It makes the double standard, the hypocrisy, as plain as day.

These are entirely valid questions and the comparison to women's health is equally valid.

Emotional screams of "MRA!" don't do much to hide that these are a reasonable thing to discuss on a message board.

[Bonobo]

7. Thanks, but that actually isn't precisely the topic.

What I am asking is should men's opinions carry more weight (not legally, but morally in a sense) than women's because they have penises and know the experience and can evaluate the issues better -similar to vaginal health issues.

[Bonobo]

9. Agreed.

And also agreed about people making their own decisions --but parents making decisions for what they think is in the best interests of a child is a pretty normal thing.

[Bonobo]

13. So tell me, smart guy, what is it?

Why is it so offensive to suggest males have a more informed and therefore more weighty opinion about what happens to their kid's penises?

Why is it so offensive to suggest that castration and killing of men in war is at least as important as rape?

Why does pointing out that saying "hissy fit" or "whining man-babies" is as offensive as saying "hysterical bitch"?

Etc.

Is it just the pendulum having shot so far, inevitably? Or am I just mistaking a tiny number of over-the toppers for being representative of something that actually doesn't exist?

[Bonobo]

16. Warren, I think you are fucking awesome.

Amazingly, still you rise.

[opiate69]

32. I second that motion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. +1 n/t

[MADem]

10. People do not realize that circumcision is a component of Islam as well.

One of the ways they can "tell" if you're a Muslim or fronting is to check your undercarriage, as it were.

It's not just a "Jewish thing" when you're talking about religious imperatives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khitan_%28circumcision%29

[Behind the Aegis]

15. I am not surprised it was hidden.

I do think men should have more input into the decision. I find the discussions around this topic to be ignorant at best, much of the time. I think remarks like "mutilated", "deformed", and the like to be offensive and akin to body shamming, but it is more offensive when it comes from women. Just as they don't like to be judged on their bodies, neither do we, and despite the patriarchal society, it doesn't make nasty remarks about our bodies any less destructive.

[Bonobo]

17. You said it about the mutilated thing.

Can you fucking imagine if THAT was reversed. Holy fucking shit.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Those were some nasty comments!

I think she is a beautiful woman. She has been attacked in so many articles, I really wonder where she gets her strength.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. I see it all the time in the main forums.

It is really very disgusting. Of course, it isn't limited to circumcisions either. There was the whole "baby dick" thread. The "little cock having" gun owners comments made. Quite frankly, it ties in with some of the homophobia I see here too, which primarily focus on gay men (sometimes bisexual men).

[Bonobo]

21. The baby dick thread was gross... I often want to ask this hypothetical...

"IF, as you believe, men are motivated out of embarrassment over their small penises to be bad people who do violent things, then why would you want to contribute to that shaming?"

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Perhaps you should ask it!

How often are we (as people) are reminded the cycle of violence feeds on itself? If this is true, then participating in it by such comments simply "feeds" the process. We (liberals) know it is bad to belittle people for being born with darker skin; we know it is wrong to put down people who are sexual minorities, yet, when it comes to how men are born, including their penises shape, size, and look, are fair game?! Men can no more control the size of their penis (without surgery or some other risky methods) than I (or other GLB people) can control our sexual orientation!

[Bonobo]

25. I am already sure of the reaction...

1. "Poor baby, you're so objectified and oppressed"

2. "Go back to the Little Boy's Club"

3. "Such a whiner"

4. "MRA blarggle garrrgle"

etc.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Undoubtedly.

But, there is always the possibility it could spark some discussion or even open some minds. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. All that said, you are likely correct in what the responses would be.

[Bonobo]

23. Could you explain the homophobia connection to me? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

26. It is intricate and I hope I can explain myself well enough.

Some of the comments I have seen, which I feel are homophobic, almost always relate to male homo/bisexuals, mainly the "homo-" group, but I am trying to be inclusive. The male to male relationships are defined as being "less than" and all about sex. When I see comments about homophobes being "secret gays", the targets of the assertion are almost always men! Cruz just recently made some stupid (imagine that) comments about gay people (marriage), and the resulting comments on his ignorance were about him being a possible homosexual because of his "obsession" with gays. The reactions to him and about his comments revolved around who's penis might go where. Lindsay Graham threads are usually pretty bad too. Think about it...how often have you seen comments about female homophobes being "secret lesbians"? How about single women being 'closeted lesbians?" The other issue, IMO, is when a gay man is attacked and the homophobia is pointed out, it becomes a discussion about anti-female sexism or misogyny. Sure, both of those contribute to homophobia, but when the victim is male, the subject seems to get changed. I have noticed similar situations when gay men are the victims of sexual assault (sometimes, it applies to men in general).

It comes down to 'shaming' men, their bodies, and their sexuality.

Did that make any sense?!

[Bonobo]

28. Yes, it did.

It is complex, but I see a glimpse of it now. I need to give it more thought when I am not working on a translation. Translating Japanese to English exhausts the brain and I have been at it the last 9 hours.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. I sorta understand what you're saying.

I have been guilty of criticizing homophobes on the (scientifically sound) basis that they are more likely to experience same sex attraction. My intention is to show that their homophobia is aggravated by hypocrisy or cowardice (it takes courage to come out), but I'm sure it often sounds like I'm suggesting that their character flaws are made worse by being gay.

I hope that made sense.

Thanks, btw.

[mythology]

31. In general, yes I do

In the specific, such as a couple deciding if their son should be circumcised, both parents should be equally involved.

And no it's not flamebait.

[MicaelS]

33. No.

We don't know what it is like to have a female reproductive system and the problems associated with it. Just like they don't have a male reproductive system, and the problems associated with it.

[KWMB]

35. Live and let live.

I believe in the freedom of individuals - whether male or female. Unless a procedure is medically necessary to a child's survival, decisions regarding one's person should be left to individual choice - period.

But, to answer more in line with the original question -- I do not believe anyone not qualified should make decisions about anyone's health. If this is personal choice we are talking about, then I would think the opinions of men are more valid when discussing male issues - just as the opinions of women are more valid when discussing female issues.

If, on the other hand, we are talking about professional knowledge, health issues, etc. - anyone who is qualified to answer such questions has a valid opinion. There are males who specialize in female health issues, and women who specialize in male issues -- so in those cases, their opinions would be valid - regardless of the gender of the professional.

Just my humble take on the issue..

[Major Nikon]

36. I think the point is...

either males' opinions over male health are more valid than females', or females' opinions over female health aren't more valid than males'.

Trying to have it one way but not the other seems a bit hypocritical.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

37. I always think it's interesting to hear a guy who's pro-circumcision....

....whose only argument seems to be "well, that's the way we do it, get over it" and proceed to mock any man concerned about it.

Comes across as very similar to conservatives arguments about health care and drug law as opposed to other nations.

[Bonobo]

38. Don't have your kid circumcised. nt