Peter Beinart is wrong: Palestinian hostility to Israel is frequently anti-Semitic

[King_David]

Former U.K. Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks' particular brand of Orthodox Judaism is profoundly ethical and compassionate. He is one of the leading spokespeople for peaceful coexistence between people of all faiths. But he is also a proud Jew who is unafraid to point out that while there is plenty of room for legitimate criticism of Israel's government, today’s anti-Zionism — which challenges, on human rights grounds, not merely Israel’s policies, but its very existence as a Jewish state — is frequently merely anti-Semitism in a new guise.

In a recent article, Peter Beinart challenges this correlation of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. He argues that Palestinian anti-Zionism is cut from a different and more reasonable cloth of genuine grievances.


Regretfully, after dedicating the last four years of my life to working for Jewish human rights organizations, I have seen too much unfairness to Israel to doubt that Rabbi Sacks is correct.

Zionism is an outstandingly successful human rights movement. It has restored the dignity of the world's most persecuted people by returning us to our historic homeland, building a sanctuary for our survival and a country where we can flourish in a liberal democracy.


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.713637?v=C000B5663AC7A368017FD0064D42D308

[Israeli]

1. * cough cough * ....

....whatever happened to ......???????

quote : Not worth the effort I spent googling it ...

The article is crap and definitely not worth paying Haaretz premium for.

re: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134126933

your post # 3 .

You mean you can access it when it suits you and not when it doesnt ?

[King_David]

2. This was posted before?

[Israeli]

3. Not to my knowledge KD ....

....but the non premium version does not get you past the first paragraph .

So how did you do it ???

......

[King_David]

4. Strange, it just opens for me.

[Israeli]

5. Amazing .........

........

[King_David]

6. Must be a private inside joke , that only you get?

[Israeli]

7. Must be KD ....nt.

[leftynyc]

28. They must be doing something wrong

Or just whining for the sake of whining. Article opened right up for me using link below.

[Israeli]

29. Which link leftynyc.....

.....care to share ???????

[leftynyc]

30. The one in post 22

Maybe a cached version? Opened right up for me.

[Israeli]

31. .....and KD's original link ?

....is that opening right up for you ?

[leftynyc]

33. I didn't even try it

I finished the thread and went to the one someone said was working and it did. Why is this so much more important than what the article (from the very liberal Haaretz) actually says (that you haven't seen fit to mention even once)? Why the deflection?

[FBaggins]

52. Opened up for me

Many pay sites give you a free "taste" before starting to charge.

[azurnoir]

8. Strange? Really? here you gave a reason

Star Member King_David (14,210 posts)
11. They behind paywalls

I'll have to read them at my Dads later tonight he has a Haaretz subscription .
הַסְבָּרָה? hasbará, "explaining" - it ain't a dirty word. LOL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79247

[King_David]

9. What do you think of the OP

Or are you again desperately trying to change the subject on an inconvenient truth ?

[azurnoir]

10. lol you were the one going on about not having any paywall problems

and I agree with Israeli on this

[shira]

11. 10 posts through and all they've done is deflect. Not one thought on the OP. n/t

[King_David]

12. Its an uncomfortable OP

Last edited Sat Apr 16, 2016, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)

[Israeli]

13. LOL ....

re : Or are you again desperately trying to change the subject on an inconvenient truth ?

[King_David]

14. I know right.

That poster deflects or changes the subject whenever s/he finds the subject matter uncomfortable.

[Israeli]

15. My last post was directed at you KD .......and

.....nobody else

[King_David]

16. Really?

But that makes no sense.
But whatever.
What you think of the OP ? ( if tou can answer without the homophobic obscenity this time around , else don't bother )

[Israeli]

18. Yup really ....

" But that makes no sense ".........

" But whatever ".......

quote : .... tou can





.........as in two can better than one can ????? .....


Cant be bothered KD ......must make me a raving homophobic ......

[King_David]

19. Nah , I think it's because you live in a small isolated insular Kibbutz

The same as living in small town anywhere USA .

You gotta get out more to Tel Aviv - experience the diversity.

[branford]

17. Enough with the complaining about the damn link...

Haaretz is a very liberal source you should be more than comfortable reading and discussing, and their links are often problematic due to their porous paywall.

Here's a link that should work fine for all non-subscribers:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.713637

[branford]

22. The link no longer appears to work.

Try linking from the relevant Google search, and then refresh on the Haaretz page.

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=Peter+Beinart+Is+Wrong:+Palestinian+Hostility+to+Israel+Is+Frequently+anti-Semitic+read+more:+http:%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fopinion%2F.premium-1.713637

[Little Tich]

20. "Zionism is an outstandingly successful human rights movement."

Since when did a racist ideology become a human rights movement? And why is criticism of a racist ideology considered racist? I don't get it.

[branford]

21. Zionism, Jewish self-determination, is a "racist ideology?"

Even the rampantly antisemitic, human rights allergic, and rampantly corrupt United Nations jettisoned that canard back in 1991.

However, I'm curious, is Palestinian self-determination also a "racist ideology," or are Jews the exception to the rule?

If you don't understand why Zionism is a human rights movement, you've clearly never studied or researched the history of the Jewish people anywhere on the planet (and not just 19th century Europe).

The day the Democratic Party adopts anything close to a "Zionism = racism" platform, is the day I'll leave the party, and according to virtually all polls, most Americans would be similarly revolted and disgusted. It's exactly this double standard nonsense concerning Jews why most Israelis, no less the wider diaspora of Jews, are leery of the "peace process" and are not willing to trust people and groups who would so readily deny them rights and ignore their four thousand year history in the Levant.

[Little Tich]

23. All forms of ethnic discrimination are racist IMHO. n/t

[branford]

24. So, I assume you also oppose Palestinian claims to self-determination

and their desire for an effectively Judenrein state, like much of the rest of the region (and world)

You should be content with much of the status quo...

However, since this is unlikely the case, I'll begin to take your complaints seriously when the Palestinians (and the rest of the multitude of countries and billions of residents in the Arab and Muslim world) are judged by the exact same standards as you wish to hold Israel, the one western, democratic, and Jewish majority nation, and a few million Jews.

If you really believe Zionism is racism, I have no idea why you're in the Democrat Party. Such ideas are anathema to our Party Platform and virtually all of the western, developed world. Those areas where such ideas still predominate are some of the most regressive hellholes on the planet.

[Little Tich]

25. All calls for removing a population of one ethnicity and replacing it with another are racist.

This applies (of course) to calls for removing Jews in the West Bank as well.

I'm not saying that Zionism is a form of racism, it doesn't work that way. I think that Zionism as an ideology and in its practical application contains strong elements of discrimination against non-Jews, which is different.

The ideology and moral justification for the legal discrimination against Israeli Arabs in Israel and the Apartheid in the West Bank is Zionism, which is why I believe that Zionism is a racist ideology. While it's not certain that all expressions of Zionism are necessarily discriminatory against non-Jews I believe that most are.

Actually, I believe that all forms of nationalism are racist to some degree, it's not just Zionism. I don't think that being opposed to all forms of ethnic discrimination is against the values of the Democratic Party.

[shira]

40. There is no legal discrimination against Israeli Arabs in Israel.

You shouldn't have to lie to make your point.

Especially when those lies incite people to hate and act against Jews.

[King_David]

26. Zionism is Racism????

Really?

You got it wrong...

AntiZionism is Antisemitism

[Little Tich]

27. I see a lot of ethnic discrimination going on in Israel and the occupied territories,

and the driving force behind it seems to be Zionism.

I'm just calling out what I see, and what I see is that Zionism is a racist ideology. Perhaps it's wrong of me to consider all forms of ethnic discrimination to be racism, without excuse, but unless someone convinces me otherwise, that's what I believe.

[shira]

32. That's not Zionism. Seriously, you've been here for over a year...

....and you still don't know what Zionism is?

It's simple.

It's the belief in a Jewish homeland for the Jewish people in Israel, their cultural & historic homeland. It is in their indigenous homeland that Jews have the basic human right of self-determination.

It's equal rights for the Jewish people. There's nothing at all racist about that.

What's racist is the anti-zionist belief in 1-state that will result in self-determination for a Palestinian majority population at the expense of the Jewish people. It's especially racist given how disastrous that situation would be for Jews (with Hamas in charge and Jewish living conditions worse than in Syria, Libya, Yemen). This 1-state endangers Jews who would have nowhere to go in order to be safe.

You should be questioning anti-zionism instead.

[Little Tich]

35. If Israel did not adhere to Zionist values, it would become a normal democracy

with equal rights for all its citizens.

Zionism is the underlying ideology that justifies the Israeli political system that makes Israeli Arabs into second class citizens. Take away Zionism and Israel would be a normal democracy like the US, Germany or Sweden.

In a way, it's like we're discussing different issues - I'm only interested in highlighting the actual reasons why Israel has a political system that discriminates against non-Jews.

[shira]

38. Take away Zionism & Jews would have no homeland, nowhere to go for sanctuary....

....and treated like shit under Hamas/PLO/Islamic Jihad rule where there would be no liberal democracy, no equal rights for anyone, no free press. Nothing.

What you advocate threatens the short and long term existence of Jews worldwide.

It doesn't get more racist than that.

[leftynyc]

34. You know

For someone who routinely tries to convince people how neutral you are, you seem to have zero problem with the disgustingly racist Zionism equal racism argument - an argument that not even the UN tries to pass off anymore. I don't think you even really understand what Zionism actually is (and not what the repulsive haters try to make it out to be).

[Little Tich]

36. So why do you think that Israel has a political system that discriminates against non-Jews in Israel

and the occupied territories?

Perhaps defining it as ethnic discrimination in Israel and Apartheid in the occupied territories is just me poisoning the well, and it would be more apt with a different definition?

And I don't equate Zionism with racism, that's a somewhat simplified and stupid argument. I do however think that there are racist elements in Zionism as an ideology and that the practical application of Zionism reflects that.

[leftynyc]

37. What exactly are the racist

elements in the "ideology" of Zionism?

[Little Tich]

41. It's exactly those elements that justify making discrimination against non-Jews into Israeli law

and those that justify Israeli settlers moving into occupied territory and be allowed preferential treatment, while the occupied population has no civil rights whatsoever. I really hope that you can concede the point that there's some kind of legal discrimination against non-Jews going on in Israel and the occupied territories, it would be tedious for me if you didn't.

If it's not Zionism that motivates the Zionist parties in the Knesset and people to vote for them, then what is it? Are these people just imagining that they're Zionists and that they promote Zionist ideology?

[leftynyc]

43. Zionism

has a very specific meaning. I suggest you look it up and learn it before spouting off. It has nothing to do with the territories at all.

[shira]

39. Everyone has equal rights in a liberal Israeli democracy. Your charges are bullshit.

Last edited Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:10 PM - Edit history (1)

What's funny is that you advocate a 1-state equal rights Palestinian Arab majority nation (under Hamas/PLO control) when you KNOW without any question what a toxic dump that would be for the human and civil rights of everyone, not to mention Jews.

Why are you advocating something HORRIFICALLY awful in comparison to the Zionism you oppose?

[Little Tich]

42. I've got a list of 50 discriminatory laws that says otherwise.

I know I've posted this article before, and that you've never bought my arguments about it, but if there's anything factually wrong with it or the Adalah list of 50 discriminatory laws please tell me. My argument that the Israeli political system is discriminatory against non-Jews is based on information like the article and the Adalah list.

Just pick any discriminatory law you want and tell me why it's not discriminatory. If you were able to do it, it would help your argument quite a lot.

For example, isn't it even a little bit discriminatory that 93% of all land in Israel is earmarked for use and development for Jewish citizens only?


The Adalah database of 50 discriminatory laws in Israel
Source: Mondoweiss, June 14, 2015

(snip)

1. 1950 law about confiscation of Absentee Landlord Property. This law defines persons who were expelled, fled, or who left the country after November 29, 1947 as “absentee.” Property belonging to “absentees” was placed under the control of the State of Israel with the Custodian for Absentees’ Property. The Absentee Property Law was the main legal instrument used by Israel to take possession of the land belonging to the internal and external Palestinian refugees, and Muslim Waqf properties across the state. This law continues to be used to this day by quasi-governmental agencies in Israel to take over Palestinian properties in East Jerusalem, for example.

2. 1950 Law of Return. This allows every Jewish person to immigrate to Israel and this extends to the children and grandchildren of Jews, as well as their spouses, and the spouses of their children and grandchildren. The flip side of this is that the rights of Palestinians and others to enter the state and become citizens, even if they were born in the area that is now the State of Israel, are extremely restrictive. This discrimination against the non-Jewish minority has been periodically reinforced. For example, the ban on family unification law of 2003 prohibits citizens of Israel from reuniting with Palestinian spouses living in the West Bank or Gaza.

3. In 1952 the state authorized the World Zionist Organization, the Jewish Agency, and other Zionist bodies founded at the turn of the 20th century to function in Israel as quasi-governmental entities in order to further advance the goals of the Zionist movement, to the detriment of minorities.

4. The Land Acquisition Law of 1953 transferred the land of 349 Arab towns and villages—approximately 1.2 million dunams in all (~468 square miles)—to the state to be used preferentially for the Jewish majority.

5. In 1953, the Knesset bestowed governmental authorities on the Jewish National Fund (JNF or Keren Kayemeth LeIsrael) to purchase land for exclusively Jewish use. The state granted financial advantages, including tax relief to facilitate such purchases.

6. In 1960, the state passed a law which stipulates that the ownership of “Israel lands”—namely the 93% of land under the control of the state, the Jewish National Fund, and the Development Authority—cannot be transferred in any manner.

Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel/

The Discriminatory Laws Database
Source: Adalah, The legal center for Arab Minority rights in Israel

In March 2013, Adalah launched the Discriminatory Laws Database, an online resource that collects more than 50 Israeli laws enacted since 1948 that directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures. Some of the laws also violate the rights of Palestinians living in the 1967 OPT and Palestinian refugees.

Read more: http://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

[shira]

44. That idiocy has been debunked here before...

Last edited Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:01 AM - Edit history (2)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113470300#post41

But also here...
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/adalah_s_database_of_laws_imagining_racism_to_demonize_israel_/
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=2253
http://www.bluetruth.net/2014/05/more-lies-about-discriminatory-laws-in.html

What's racist is publishing lies slandering the Jewish state in order to incite hatred & violence against Jews.

Why lie? If Israel is so bad, stick to the facts - there's enough to criticize legitimately without the need to lie. The reason for the lies is to stoke hatred, isn't it? In the case of Adalah, they advocate 1 racist totalitarian state under Hamas/PLO control. They're a complete joke WRT human rights. What's your excuse?

[oberliner]

45. This is what happens when people look to Mondoweiss for accurate information

I don't understand how people can still possibly post anything from there.

[shira]

46. The only reason to continue posting from there is to incite hatred & bigotry. n/t

[Little Tich]

47. So there's no discrimination against non-Jews in Israel and the occupied territories at all?

Not even a little bit?

[oberliner]

49. That's called a straw man, isn't it?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[Little Tich]

50. State your position then...

Or is your position on the subject of Israeli discrimination against non-Jews that you don't like Mondoweiss?

Relevance, please...

[oberliner]

53. Mondoweiss is a duplicitous blog site run by a hate-filled bigot

I have made my position clear on this subject numerous times and will continue to do so when appropriate.

The poster who responded originally to that list you posted did a nice job of identifying all the inaccuracies contained within.

I concur with what they wrote on the subject of discrimination against non-Jews in Israel.

[Little Tich]

48. It's not possible to refute a truth with half-truths and outright lies.

I did take a look at your links and the DU thread. Interestingly, I wasn't convinced by a single argument in favor of having different laws for non-Jews or even denying their existence. It was all complete hogwash, and quite a lot of it too. Unfortunately, it was too much to refute in one go, but I can assure you that none of it will stand up to scrutiny. Interestingly, I didn't find anything about why it's not discriminatory to reserve 93% of all land in Israel for Jewish use only. I guess some turds can't be polished.

If you actually believe that there's no discrimination going on Israel or in the occupied territories, just pick a single one of the discriminatory laws below and try to tell me how it's not discriminatory:

Increased Governance and Raising the Qualifying Election Threshold – Bill to Amend Basic Law: The Government (1160)
Civil Wrongs Law - Amendment No. 8 (Liability of the State)
Criminal Procedure Law - Interrogating Suspects - Amendment No. 6
Income Tax Ordinance - Amendment No. 191
Israeli Prisons Ordinance Amendment No. 43 - Prisoner-Attorney Meetings
Israeli Prisons Ordinance - Amendment No. 40 (Meetings with Lawyers)
"Anti-Boycott Law" - Prevention of Damage to the State of Israel through Boycott
Foreign Property Ownership - Israel Lands Law (Amendment No. 3)
"Admissions Committees Law" - Cooperative Societies Ordinance - Amendment No. 8
Citizenship Law - Amendment No. 10
"Nakba Law" - Amendment No. 40 to the Budgets Foundations Law
"Foreign Government Funding Law" - Law on Disclosure Requirements for Recipients of Support from a Foreign State Entity
Law to Strip Payments from a Current or Former Member of Knesset due to a Crime
Extension of Detention - Criminal Procedure Law (Suspects of Security Offenses) (Temporary Order) - Amendment No. 2
"Negev Individual Settlements" - Negev Development Authority Law - Amendment No. 4
Absorption of Discharged Soldiers Law - Amendment No. 12
Land (Acquisition for Public Purposes) Ordinance - Amendment No. 10
"Pardon Law" or "Amnesty Law" - Termination of Proceedings and Deletion of Records in the Disengagement Plan Law
Regional Councils Law (Date of General Elections) Special Amendment No. 6
Israel Land Administration Law - Amendment No. 7
National Priority Areas - The Economic Efficiency Law - Legislative Amendments for Implementing the Economic Plan for 2009-2010
Child Vaccinations and Child Allowances - Economic Efficiency Law
Absorption of Discharged Soldiers Law - Amendment No. 7: Benefits for Discharged Soldiers
Criminal Procedure Law - Interrogating Suspects - Amendment No. 4
Criminal Procedure Law (Detainee Suspected of Security Offence) (Temporary Order)
"Ban on Family Unification" - Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order)
Law of Political Parties - Amendment No. 12
Use of Hebrew Date Law
Knesset Law
Basic Law: The Government
Second Authority for Television and Radio Law
The Golan Heights Law
Interpretation Law
Public Lands Law (Eviction of Squatters)
Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel
Foundations of Law Act
Religious Jewish Services Law
Law of Yad Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (1969) and Law of Mikve Israel Agricultural School (1976)
Protection of Holy Sites Law
National Planning and Building Law -Limitation of Water, Electricity and Telephone
Broadcasting Authority Law
Basic Law: Israel Lands
Israel Land Administration Law
Basic Law: The Knesset
Jewish National Fund Law
State Education Law
Land Acquisition Law (Actions and Compensation)
World Zionist Organization-Jewish Agency (Status) Law
Entry into Israel Law
Citizenship Law
Law of Return
Absentees’ Property Law
State Stamp Law
Flag and Emblem Law
Law and Government Ordinance, Article 18A
Defense Regulations (Times of Emergency), Regulation 125 (Closed Zones)
Trade with the Enemy Ordinance

Source: http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

Note: the list of Adalah laws includes a few laws that are not yet active and to be fair to you, I haven't included them. Anyway, pick one of the above, and I will cheerfully rip your argumentation to shreds.

[Little Tich]

54. Oh, I would jump through a lot of hoops if it would enable me to refute you.

But seriously, just because a few of these laws aren't put in the books yet doesn't mean that they're of no significance. It's the same thing with those two (?) laws that are obsolete, but still on the list.

Lie or not, it's still not significant for refuting my argument, which is that anti-Semitism is a racist ideology and that this is reflected in some of the laws enacted by the Knesset.

[shira]

55. I deleted that last post, because I'm anxious to get into Adalah's utter idiocy....

I'm amazed you're not embarrassed to present this list. Seriously.
Here are 3 of their dumbest charges.
Please explain how they are discriminatory.

STATE STAMP LAW
Theme:Culture and Language
Status:Active
Year:1998
Description:
Mandates use of the Hebrew calendar in all correspondence and publications issued by the state authorities. There is no such law regarding the use of the Islamic calendar.

Use of Hebrew Date Law
Theme:Culture and Language
Status:Active
Year:1998
Description:
Mandates use of the Hebrew calendar in all correspondence and publications issued by the state authorities. There is no such law regarding the use of the Islamic calendar.

Flag and Emblem Law
Theme:National Identity Symbols
Status:Active
Year:1949
Description:
Adopts the flag of the First Zionist Congress and the Zionist Movement, a combination of a prayer shawl and the Shield of David, as the official flag of Israel. The emblem of the State of Israel is a candelabrum, one of the symbols of the Temple era in Jewish history. The law was amended in 1997 to include Article 2A(a), which requires all public buildings to raise the flag of Israel.

[Little Tich]

59. Congratulations, you've managed to pick some of the least offensive of the discriminatory laws on

the list.

however, they're still discriminatory. In the Jewish state, it's normal that the state is using Jewish symbols when communicating with the world. However, if Israel was a state for all its citizens, it would use symbols that reflected that fact. The use of exclusively Jewish symbols effectively erases 20% of Israels population who are not Jewish. One could be forgiven for believing that there are no Arab Israelis when looking at the communications of the state authorities.

I believe that a democratic state represents all its citizens equally and not only the majority. The Jewish state doesn't do that with the State Stamp Law, Use of Hebrew Date Law, and the Flag and Emblem Law.

[oberliner]

60. None of them are remotely discriminatory in any way

Using the Hebrew calendar in no way discriminates against anyone. Most Western countries use the Christian calendar even though large percentages of their populations are not Christian.

The state stamp law just says that the stamp of Israel be used on government documents. This does not discriminate against anyone in any way. Every country uses their stamp on government documents.

The flag and the emblem law of Israel literally just identifies what those things are. Every country has a flag and emblem. Some of them even have a Christian cross incorporated into one or both of those. This is not discriminatory.

That you could possible identify any of these as discriminatory laws indicates that you do not know the meaning of the term and are not taking this discussion seriously and/or approaching it with any sense of objectivity.

In the United States, government offices are closed on Sunday. They are also closed on Christmas, along with all public schools. Is this discriminatory?

[Little Tich]

62. I think that these 3 laws actually promote the jewishness of Israel rather than its democratic and

inclusive character.

If the laws were amended so that they represented the non-Jewish minority I really wouldn't have a problem with them. I disagree with your assessment that these 3 laws aren't discriminatory in any way.

[shira]

61. Really? So the Nordic Cross flags of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland....

....are all discriminatory.

None of those nations represent all its citizens equally? And I think you wrote that you once lived in Norway....obviously an Apartheid state.

LoL.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Adalah could make any shit up and you'd run with it - is that right? There's nothing wrong acknowledging Adalah's list is idiotic. Admit it, move on...

[Little Tich]

63. Actually, the Scandinavian flags aren't very emotionally charged symbols.

They're definitely not used by their respective states to symbolize one ethnicity over another like in Israel. If they were, they should be replaced.

[shira]

64. LoL @ your double standard. That Nordic cross is a religious symbol.

Who are you to say it isn't emotionally charged?

I can say the same about Israel's flag in that it's not emotionally charged, save for Jew haters who can't stand anything remotely Jewish.

So?

[shira]

66. Adalah says Law of Return for Jews going to Israel is discriminatory....

Problem is, this doesn't affect Arabs who are already citizens of Israel.

Oops?

Many countries like Ireland, Finland, Greece, and Germany have immigration laws that give or deny privileged access to immigrants.

Another dumb-ass claim by Adalah, right?


==============

From another thread:

Another stupid claim by Adalah is that a law that grants benefits to Jewish soldiers is discriminatory because Arabs aren't required to serve in the army like Jews or Druze. The thing is Arabs CAN serve if they want, they're just not required to do so. I want to see you acknowledge this doozy because you'd definitely be against Israel requiring Arabs to serve in its military. Israel gives them a choice due to many who want to avoid fighting fellow Palestinians. Now seriously - if you believe it's discriminatory for Israel not to require Arabs to serve in its military, then give an intelligent reason as to why. I want to see you argue for Israel making military service mandatory for all Arab citizens of Israel. Go on...

[Little Tich]

72. Could you please then explain the legal grounds for mandatory draft for jewish citizens and only

voluntary enlistment for non-Jewish ones?

I know why, but I wonder if you do...

And then about immigration: Could you give me an example of another democratic country that allows immigration of one ethnic group and denies that right to another, in spite of it being the ancestral homeland of both groups? Or perhaps just a democracy that doesn't allow immigration of certain ethnic groups? If we use American legal standards, both practices would be grossly discriminatory.

I would suspect that if the US reintroduced conscription it would be considered discriminatory to exempt minorities, or even if they were conscripted, were given different tasks.

Red Ball Express
Source: Wikipedia
(snip)

The system originated in an urgent 36-hour meeting and began operating on August 25, 1944, staffed primarily with African-American soldiers. At its peak, the Express operated 5,958 vehicles, and carried about 12,500 tons of supplies a day. It ran until November 16, when the port facilities at Antwerp, Belgium, were opened, some French rail lines were repaired, and portable gasoline pipelines deployed.

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ball_Express

[shira]

75. Already did in last post. They shouldn't be required to fight fellow Arabs, family...

Last edited Thu May 19, 2016, 06:46 AM - Edit history (1)

You disingenuously slander Israel with charges of illegal colonization, apartheid, war crimes vs Gazan civilians, etc... and now you want Israeli Arabs to become complicit in those immoral acts? Explain that one - why you want Arabs involved, only to then haul them all off to the ICC, to boycott them, etc. That's like requiring Blacks to participate in racist activity against Black communities throughout America.

Unless you concede, as you should, Israel isn't racist, apartheid, etc. and Arabs should have no problem being required to serve.

As to immigration, Adalah claims Israel's Arabs are discriminated against due to Israel's immigration laws. Immigration has nothing to do with Israeli Arabs who are already citizens and I want you to acknowledge that.

[shira]

84. Israeli Arabs: Will you serve in the Israeli army?

[shira]

67. One more ridiculous claim of discrimination by Adalah....

Identity Certificate (Possession and Presentation) Law {1982}1 –Residents must carry identity cards at all times and present them to "senior police officers," to the heads of local authorities, or to police officers or soldiers on duty when requested to do so.

What's discriminatory about this one?

All nationals and non-nationals (whether Jewish, Arab, or other) over 16 are required to do this.

You know - there's a reason Adalah doesn't EXPLAIN why ANY of these laws are discriminatory. They can't, and neither can you. It's because these claims are idiotic and are meant only to turn ignorant people against the Jewish state.

[Little Tich]

73. You've obviously never heard of DWB.

The thing is, that an Arab can't leave home without identification, because he'll probably be asked to show it. A jewish citizen isn't automatically under suspicion, and could probably sneak out to buy a quart of milk without identification.

In the US, it's considered a form of legal harassment to target ethnic groups for unwarranted police checks. Even if the laws that allow unwarranted checks include white folks, it's the way they're used that become discriminatory. I've seen police doing racial profiling, and I felt like .

DRIVING WHILE BLACK: RACIAL PROFILING ON OUR NATION'S HIGHWAYS
Source: ACLU, June 1999

On a hot summer afternoon in August 1998, 37-year-old U.S. Army Sergeant First Class Rossano V. Gerald and his young son Gregory drove across the Oklahoma border into a nightmare. A career soldier and a highly decorated veteran of Desert Storm and Operation United Shield in Somalia, SFC Gerald, a black man of Panamanian descent, found that he could not travel more than 30 minutes through the state without being stopped twice: first by the Roland City Police Department, and then by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

Read more: https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-while-black-racial-profiling-our-nations-highways

[shira]

76. You can throw smoke screens all you want, but requiring ID's from everyone...

Last edited Thu May 19, 2016, 06:45 AM - Edit history (1)

...is not discriminatory, just as it's not discriminatory anywhere else in the world.

DW Black, Hispanic or Muslim in America has nothing to do with any requirements to have an ID. Same as Israel.

It's difficult to defend stupid crap from rightwing fascist organizations like Adalah, isn't it?

[shira]

68. Population Registry Law (1965)

Requires all residents of Israel to register their nationality with the Population Registry and obtain an identity card carrying this information.

Hmm....so all citizens (Jews, Druze, Arabs) are required to do this, and this is discriminatory......how?

[shira]

77. Tich...just in case you 'forgot' this one. n/t

[sabbat hunter]

71. Ah i see the problems

1) you are looking to Mondoweiss, which is an anti-Semitic blog.
2) Law of return - every country has a right to decide who is allowed to immigrate in and become citizens. Nothing there discriminates against Israeli citizens
3) Adalah is one of the core groups of BDS, which is an anti-Semitic group.


So basically, don't believe anti-Semitic websites.

[Little Tich]

74. I think that American legal standards make a good rule of thumb for determining if a practice

amounts to discrimination.

Something that would be considered discrimination in the US, shouldn't allowed anywhere else.

You could either argue that there's nothing in Israel that would be considered discriminatory (a fool's errand), or you could argue that conditions are different in Israel, and that necessity isn't discrimination. Either way, I won't believe you.

[shira]

78. How about French, Italian, or Swedish legal standards? Are they discriminatory?

They must be if you're not willing to compare Israel to them.

[Little Tich]

79. DU is mainly a forum for people who support the values of American Democratic Party.

Most people here are quite familiar with the American legal system and how the American constitution works, so it's natural to refer to the standards people know. It doesn't really matter, as the American and European views on civil rights are quite similar. Discrimination in the US is discrimination in Europe and vice versa.

All laws and court decisions in the EU are subjected to the articles in the European Convention on Human Rights, which provides a set of rights that no EU court is allowed to go against. If any person has had their rights violated by a EU court or authority, that person has the right to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights. It means that even if there are different laws in different EU countries, they still have to use the same minimum standards. Compared to constitutional civil liberties in the US, I think that the European Convention on Human Rights goes farther and is somewhat easier to interpret.

I'm actually quite familiar with the European Convention on Human Rights and its application, but I would prefer the American comparison, at least on DU. My point still stands, though - American standards for what constitutes discrimination should be applied to Israel too.

[shira]

80. Israel is an ethnic national state like Germany, Finland, Greece, Ireland, & Italy...

So if you're going to compare Israeli immigration laws (or anything else relating to ethnicity) to any other country, it only makes sense to compare Israel to the aforementioned states where they also "discriminate" in favor of people in their own dominant ethnic group.

I want consistency from you - not this unique bullshit of Israel being more discriminatory than any other western liberal democracy. Equal weights and measures.

The point is that Israel is as liberal and democratic as any other western nation.

[Little Tich]

81. I'm not sure what form this "discrimination" would take in Germany, Finland, Greece, Ireland,

& Italy.

Unlike Israel, these countries have political systems that don't differentiate between the different ethnicities in their countries. Being a Jewish Israeli awards you extended rights which non-Jewish Israelis are not allowed. Not so in the European countries you've mentioned.

When it comes to the use of exclusionary ethnic imagery by a state, like Israel does, it would contradict Article 11 which prohibits formal or de facto exclusion from participation in the political processes of the state. It would also contradict Article 14 which guarantees full access to the rights and freedoms in the Convention for everyone "without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, color, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status." (http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf)

From what I understand, every single law on the Adalah list would be struck down by the European Court of Human Rights for being in contravention with the European Court of Human Rights. Every single law on the list would probably be considered discriminatory in the US too.

[shira]

82. Please. "Every single law on the Adalah list would be struck down..."

Let us all know when the European Court of Human Rights outlaws the Gregorian Calendar or the Scandinavian flags for being discriminatory against non-Christians, or outlaws requiring all citizens carrying ID's....

You've lost this one.

Badly.

[Little Tich]

83. So, apart from our disagreements over the interpretation of what practices may constitute

discrimination, the general idea that comparisons can be made with the American and European legal standards could still be sound?

I think using the American and European legal standards for comparing with Israel is a great idea, and I seem to perceive that you're not against it either, at least in principle.

Gregorian calendars and crosses on flags notwithstanding...

[sabbat hunter]

70. There is no political system

that discriminates against non Jews in Israel. All citizens are guaranteed equal rights (and have them)

[FBaggins]

56. I once heard a bigot say that same thing about the NAACP.

You show extreme ignorance of what racism is.

[Jefferson23]

57. They are both wrong, essentially. To determine the finite level of anti-Semitism within the

context of the I/P conflict should not be a means to justify anti-Semitism nor is it wise
to use the level of anti-Semitism to determine policy...not now and certainly
not in future negotiations. It would be as much a failure to encompass the
racism Israeli Jews have for the Palestinians in deciding policy, there should
not be any capitulation to either side based on their collective hatred.

The important piece is to acknowledge that hatred exists on each side
and not continually attempt to claim to be the most righteous holder of said
hatred. No one is going to win that contest.

How best to move forward, a viable state is the only fair approach, period.
Whatever agreements in the past failed are irrelevant, they must end this
conflict.

Palestinians hold contempt for the Israeli government primarily due to the
occupation and it also simultaneously fuels anti-Semitism that already existed
just as racism was already evident by Israeli' Jews. After 50 years it has
only grown more deeply and if people imagine Peter is blaming Jews for
anti-Semitism they are wrong. It is not comparative to blaming black
Americans for their own racism, ( a foolish argument I have seen here ).

Israel is a state comprised with a majority of Jews and that is what they want
and when their state policies discriminate Palestinians living within it and treated
less than equal, one consequence is that anti-Semitism grows deeper.

Israel is a state and a viable one, and Zionism, whatever your opinion can
in fact leave room for a viable Palestinian state as well as ending discriminating
policies for those Palestinians who choose to live in Israel.

When they begin there each group will start to leave their bigotry and hatred behind them.
There has been an horrific level of pain, loss and fear for each side and its not going to go away
before a settlement is reached and they should not use it to delay a just settlement.

Determining who is justified to hate is a losing game.

[King_David]

58. Good post

Not much there to disagree with....

[kayecy]

65. Rabbi Gideon D. Sylvester has a strange concept of human rights.....

In the OP ed, Rabbi Gideon D. Sylvester concludes that:

"Zionism is an outstandingly successful human rights movement. It has restored the dignity of the world's most persecuted people by returning us to our historic homeland, building a sanctuary for our survival and a country where we can flourish in a liberal democracy."

He neglects to mention that Zionism's objective was to remove the political rights of the indigenous people living West of the Jordon river at that time and the cause of so many Palestinian refugees today.

How can he call Zionism a "successful human rights movement" when it knew its object could not be achieved without instituting mass immigration until the immigrants became a majority?