Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHillary Clinton Slams Methodist Church for Boycott Israel Push
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/340303/hillary-clinton-slams-methodist-church-for-boycott-israel-push/“I believe that BDS seeks to punish Israel and dictate how the Israelis and Palestinians should resolve the core issues of their conflict,” Clinton wrote to leaders of the Israel Action Network and of the Jewish Federations of North America. Clinton argued that while she remains convinced that a two-state solution is best for Israel’s future, this goal can only be reached by direct negotiations between the parties. “It cannot be imposed from the outside or by unilateral actions,” Clinton wrote.
Plaudits to Hillary Clinton for standing against the un-American boycott of Israel and with the American people as well as Jews, the longest loyal Democratic voting bloc and among nearly the highest Democratic voting bloc, just behind AAs.
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Response to ericson00 (Original post)
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ericson00
(2,707 posts)and for that, alone, needs to be stopped. Anti-Israelism is just a form of anti-Americanism, as Alan Dershowitz, the moral conscience of American foreign policy, has pointed out.
Response to ericson00 (Reply #2)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
that last line shows my problem with Bernie in a nutshell. Notice how the moderate/con majority of the Democratic party has views that align exactly with the country as a whole, and Hillary's supporters are far closer to it than Bernie. And once Hillary fixes the relationship with Bibi, those numbers will change.
The good news is that the PPP poll differs from the Gallup, and I do suspect Gallup to be more accurate.
Response to ericson00 (Reply #5)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I seem to recall him going so far as to accuse Sanders of being "self-hating," but I can't find the link. Lots of other crap though. For instance, Bernie's a bad evil person because he apparently aligns more with J-street, which ericson believes is anti-Israel
Which is fucking hilarious to anyone who doesn't regard Im Tirtzu as an example of "political moderates"
cali
(114,904 posts)
Israeli
(4,306 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Good to see she's maintaining that long record.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It also reinforces my belief that if she becomes the next President, there won't be a two-state solution.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #8)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)1967 as decided in several UN resolutions.
Anything less would make a Palestinian state non-viable, and there's no point in creating a state that won't be able to function as one.
While I believe that it's morally wrong to remove people of one ethnicity to make place for another, a two-state solution is not possible if the 600 000 settlers should stay. It's a bit of a dilemma - either the settlements or the two-state solution but not both. I can't see HRC criticizing or pressuring Israel in any way that would force Israel to change the current status quo, which will lead to a one-state solution by default.
If 600 000 settlers would have to move to Israel to make the two-state solution possible, do you think it would be worth it, and should Israel be pressured into making them move? Or am I just framing the whole issue wrong?
shira
(30,109 posts)Everyone knows full well it's the PA/Hamas that doesn't want a peaceful 2 state solution.
They are the ones who need to be pressured.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat May 14, 2016, 07:55 AM - Edit history (1)
....as a Jewish state because they want Israel gone. Anything short of a deal that leaves Israel virtually defenseless they will reject.
They need to be pressured to do the right thing for their people that would end settlements, occupation, and fake apartheid claims forever.
If they keep listening to folks like yourself, the Palestinians will never have their own state.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #11)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)If Israel offers a square foot of Negev Desert, they can get another square foot of Desert in return. Besides, it won't alleviate the problems the settlements cause by strangling the Palestinian economy and preventing any expansion of communities.
Every single settlement is built in the wrong place, and not a single of them can stay without making a Palestinian state less viable. If you don't believe me, you can always check the map:
Source: http://peacenow.org.il/eng/content/november-2011-map-settlements-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem
Every time I look at the map, I scratch my head, because I always reach the same conclusion: It's either the settlements or the two-state solution, but not both. Israel can't keep any settlements if there's going to be a two-state solution.
I must say that I seriously doubt Hillary Clinton's commitment to a two state solution - she's unwilling to criticize the settlements, and at the same time she's extremely critical of those who do in the form of BDS, a shown in the OP. Her stance makes a two-state solution impossible.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #19)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Giving a Palestinian state a few square miles of desert won't make it more contiguous or even remotely viable. Any development in these amazing new areas won't change the facts that all communities in the West Bank and Jerusalem are isolated from each other, have nowhere to expand and have no access to resources.
There are more than a few serious reports detailing the problems of the economy in the occupied territories, but there's not a single viability study of a two-state solution with the settlements remaining. Perhaps it's because the settlements completely prevent a viable two-state solution?
Anyway, here are some reports on the difficult economic conditions in the occupied territories and their causes:
The economic costs of the Israeli occupation for the occupied Palestinian territory September 2011
Source: The Palestinian Ministry of National Economy and the Applied Research Institute - Jerusalem
http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/qpal/docs/2012Cairo/p2%20jad%20isaac%20e.pdf
East Jerusalem 2015: Facts and Figures
Source: Association for Civil Rights in Israel, May 2015
http://www.acri.org.il/en/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/EJ-Facts-and-Figures-2015.pdf
Palestinian Authority Incurs US$285 Million in Annual Fiscal Losses
Source: The World Bank
Read more: http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2016/04/18/palestinian-authority-incurs-us285-million-in-annual-fiscal-losses
Any two-state solution that doesn't remove all or at least most of the settlements is guaranteed to fail, regardless of how much money is used. A non-viable Palestinian state can't be made more viable without addressing the cause for it being non-viable. Besides, who's going to pay for all this? It seems horribly expensive. This idea of yours seems more like the brain farts of an armchair economist than an actual serious proposal.
shira
(30,109 posts)Your position on 2 states is closer to that of Hamas than the PA.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #25)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)of some people you call "pretty much everyone"?
The current situation in the occupied territories is the problem, not the solution. You've shown me absolutely nothing that would prove your point.
All the evidence points towards that the settlements, the occupation and the restrictions are the factors that keep the Palestinian economy and its political system below a sustainable level.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #33)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
shira
(30,109 posts)Mahmoud Abbas has agreed to land swaps and so have the Saudis in their Arab Peace Plan which you once supported (but maybe not now).
King_David
(14,851 posts)Under any President.
The best outcome will be the Zionist Union plan , unilateral withdrawal and imposition of borders .That will be the only solution possible.Hamas will reject it and anything else too, but that's what will happen anyway.
Israeli
(4,306 posts)Zionist Union is about to cease to exist :
MK Miki Rosenthal (Labor), a vocal opponent of joining the government, assailed Herzog in similar terms on his Facebook page. “Herzog’s holding a fire sale,” he wrote. “He’s willing to crawl into Netanyahu’s government almost unconditionally.”
“The legitimacy he’s given Netanyahu’s government has to a large extent undermined our ability to criticize it in the future,” Rosenthal added. “Who will believe us?”
Only one Zionist Union MK, Eitan Broshi, has publicly expressed willingness to join the government, and at least 14 (including all five Hatnuah MKs) are adamantly opposed.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.719057
see also :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4802202,00.html
King_David
(14,851 posts)There have been various incarnations of that idea ... It's what Kadims did in Gaza... And after that Oren suggested it too then ZU...
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)A solution that results in only one functioning state in the former Palestine Mandate is the one-state solution by definition, and Israel will be just as responsible for the welfare of the Palestinians living there as they've been since 1967. The only result will be that the Apartheid in the West Bank becomes permanent.
shira
(30,109 posts)They (Hamas and the PLO) can try to act as helpless as possible but the best they could argue at that point is they have a border dispute going on with Israel. They're sovereign at that point and Israel is done with them.
There are lots of border disputes in the world but no one says anyone is occupying other states due to that.
Seems you just can't let go of the occupation - even when Israel ends it. Don't you have other hobbies other than obsessing with what the Jewish state does?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)way out?
That doesn't sound very feasible.
shira
(30,109 posts)That some people call it an occupation is nothing but another deliberate anti-Israel lie & distortion meant to stoke hatred/violence against Jews.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)military jurisdiction and their welfare is Israel's responsibility.
I don't remember any UN resolutions declaring Gaza free from occupation...
shira
(30,109 posts)Where do you get Gaza is under Israeli military jurisdiction? Hamas would disagree as they are the ruling military power there (which they would not be if Israel occupied Gaza). Also, Gaza's welfare isn't Israel's responsibility anymore than it is Egypt's. For an occupation to take place under International Law, Israel must maintain effective control in Gaza....meaning they are the police & government, not Hamas and it is Israel that controls the borders (including the one with Egypt).
I think you know better but you'll probably continue with these ridiculous lies.
The UN is a complete joke with brutal regimes on its Human Rights council, UNESCO, defense of Hamas...
You claim to be against fascism but with your support of BDS, your favoring the UN's support of Hamas, defending others who support Hamas.....you show you don't know who the real fascists are.
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)Too bad she is actively trying to smear and destroy the possible first Jewish american presidential hopeful, but love to see her try to pull at the Israel patriotism card as hard as she pulled at the 911 one.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)I am sorry he does not run on his race like Hillary does on her gender, but as many polls have said there is more anti-jewish voters than there are anti-white (Hillary)...which is why many of her papers tried to push this narrative...like she did with helping Obama "embrace" his father's nationality...you remember the birther thing she started. But I am sure she polls well with conservative Jewish supporters that are for the killings of Palestinians...I actually know one...and yes he likes that. Just so you know not all Jewish people think alike, the idea that they do is what is called racism.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)where we really have any policy goals, ambitions, or plans.
It's a shitshow, and it's not going to get any better during her lifetime.
A few perfunctory UN vetoes here and there to cater to domestic political considerations, but the rest of the world is going to plan on dealing with that situation without our help, since we can't be of any help.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Israel will continue to be a US ally until it becomes too toxic due to the apartheid state that already exists in the west bank.