We’re American Jewish Historians. This Is Why We’ve Left Zionism Behind

[Little Tich]

Source: Haaretz, by Hasia Diner and Marjorie N. Feld, Aug 01, 2016

Our connections to Israel flourished, faltered and finally ended even though we grew up, live and work in the heart of the American Jewish community.

Hasia Diner: The Israel I once loved was a naïve delusion

When I was asked to run as a delegate on the progressive Hatikva platform to the 2010 World Zionist Congress, I encountered my personal rubicon, the line I could not cross. I was required to sign the "Jerusalem Program." This statement of principles asked me to affirm that I believed in “the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem as capital” for the Jewish people. It encouraged “Aliyah to Israel,” that is, the classic negation of the diaspora and as such the ending of Jewish life outside a homeland in Israel.

The “Jerusalem Program” also asked me to declare that I wanted to see the “strengthening [of] Israel as a Jewish, Zionist and democratic state.” As to democratic, I had no problem, but the singular insistence on Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state made me realize that, at least in light of this document, I could not call myself a Zionist, any longer. Does Jewish constitute a race or ethnicity? Does a Jewish state mean a racial state?

The death of vast numbers of Jewish communities as a result of Zionist activity has impoverished the Jewish people, robbing us of these many cultures that have fallen into the maw of Israeli homogenization. The ideal of a religiously neutral state worked amazingly well for the millions of Jews who came to America.

The socialist Zionism of the Habonim youth movement was central to my early years, providing my base during the 1970s when the Jewish settlement of the Occupied Territories began. I need not belabor the point that from that date on, the Palestinian land that has been expropriated for Jews has grown by leaps and bounds and that the tactics used by the State of Israel to suppress the Palestinians have grown harsher and harsher.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.734602

Note: Haaretz Premium article - Google title for access.

[Little Tich]

1. The American Jews Who've Exchanged Their Utopian Myths About Israel for Demonic Ones

Source: Haaretz, by Jonathan Sarna, Aug 01, 2016

They reject the 'naïve delusion' and 'propaganda' they were taught about Israel and Zionism. But Hasia Diner and Marjorie Feld have adopted just as facile arguments and incendiary claims against Zionism.

In an opinion piece recently published in Haaretz,  two American Jewish historians, Hasia Diner and Marjorie Feld, bemoan the loss of an Israel that they once held dear. Diner describes her past love as a “naïve delusion.” Feld describes hers as the product of “propaganda.”

Others have ably refuted the facile arguments that Diner and Feld put forth. It is disappointing to see tired slogans about “colonialism,” “racism” “imperialism,” and “ethnic cleansing,” repeated by respected scholars, without any reference to the well-known literature that challenges and nuances these incendiary claims. 

Perhaps that is what happens when American Jewish historians venture far from their area of expertise.   

Where Diner and Feld do reflect larger currents is in their admission that they grew up loving Israel more than they actually understood it. Indeed, as I argued back in 1988 as part of a symposium in Commentary Magazine, “The Israel of American Jews -- the Israel that they imagined in their minds, dreamed about, and wrote about -- was for well over a century a mythical Israel, an Israel that revealed more about American Jewish ideals than about Israeli realities.”

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.734804

Note: Haaretz Premium article - Google title for access.

[Nitram]

3. Hyperbole a little? "Demonic ones?" You sound like an ill-educated evangelical christian.

I can understand why is it "disappointing to see tired slogans about “colonialism,” “racism” “imperialism,” and “ethnic cleansing." The best way to stop hearing such things would be to work towards a fair two-state solution, stop expanding illegal Israeli settlements, stop taking away Palestinian land, and stop employing an excess of force in densely populated civilian areas.

[shira]

2. "It is hard to know whether to be more offended by their arrogance or their idiocy."

There is a robust debate in American Jewry, even within the walls of my own synagogue. But it does not include people who repudiate the right of Israel to exist. I suppose you might entertain the right of people to argue France should not exist. After all some people believe that, and prove it regularly with bombs and bullets. But I suspect that none of us would readily give credence to the argument or invite it into our homes. No, you cannot argue that France, or China, or Russia or any other country in the world, no matter it’s behavior, should not exist. It is unthinkable. Only Israel is accorded the argument for ideological or literal obliteration, and now it passes in polite company as a real discussion.

So two Jewish historians take to an Israeli newspaper to argue against the continuation of the Jewish State of Israel. It is hard to know whether to be more offended by their arrogance or their idiocy.

http://time.com/4435022/israel-debate/?xid=fbshare

[Nitram]

4. The historians argue that Israel should become a democracy instead of "a Jewish State."

The fact that there have been Christian states, and there are Muslim states, is a very poor argument for the necessity of preserving Israel as a Jewish state. Until Israel become a modern democracy, non-Jews in Israel will always be second-class citizens in the way blacks were second-class citizens in South Africa and the U.S.

[oberliner]

7. Israel is a democracy

It is a Jewish state in the sense that France is a French state.

Non native-born French people have a pretty strong claim with respect to being "second-class citizens" in France.

[Nitram]

9. Israel does indeed 'claim' to be a democracy.

But a democracy doesn't have second-class citizens. I agree that France has created a real problem for themselves by not accepting those of Arabic decent as equals, but I don't think they treat their Arabs as badly as Israel treats their Palestinians. Correct me if I'm wrong. Does France checkpoints to control the movement of Arabs?

[aranthus]

10. Israel doesn't have checkpoints within Israel.

No different than France. The checkpoints are at the borders and within the West Bank. The Palestinians living in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens, and therefore aren't second class citizens at all.

[DetlefK]

52. Not legally. But in all practical terms, they are israeli citizens.

Legislative: Who is the supreme lawmaker for the Westbank?
Executive: Who is the supreme law-enforcer in the Westbank?
Judicative: Who is the highest court for the Westbank?

The answers: The Knesset, the IDF and israeli judges.

The Westbank is therefore israeli territory, the inhabitants israeli citizens. And as they get a second-class treatment, compared to for example jewish Westbank-settlers, they are second-class citizens.

[shira]

54. You don't know what you're writing about. Areas A & B of the W.Bank....

...are administered by the PA and have been since the mid 1990's. The PA is the law enforcement, they hold elections, have their own press, government institutions, etc.

Try again.

[DetlefK]

55. Do they have the authority to arrest Westbank-settlers?

Do they have the authority to sentence Westbank-settlers in Westbank-courts?

If the Westbank-Palestinians make a law outlawing settlement-activity in the Westbank, can they enforce that law?

If the Westbank-Palestinians are the law-enforcement in the Westbank, why is the IDF in the business of enforcing israeli laws in the Westbank?





Try again.

[shira]

57. Not in areas A and B they don't, because settlers don't live there.

Try again?

Maybe you should read up on areas A,B, & C and try to figure all this stuff out.

[DetlefK]

61. Just answer this:

Are the Westbank-Palestinians subject to laws passed by the israeli legislative?

Are the Westbank-Palestinians subject to decisions made by israeli courts?

Are the Westbank-Palestinians subject to israeli law-enforcers?



If Yes, then they are in all practical terms citizens of the state of Israel, no matter what some piece of paper says.

[shira]

62. You're pretending there's no difference between areas A,B,C....

Are the Westbank-Palestinians subject to laws passed by the israeli legislative?

Nope. Not in areas A and B they're not. They're subject to Palestinian civil law, as shitty as that is.

Are the Westbank-Palestinians subject to decisions made by israeli courts?

No, see above.

Are the Westbank-Palestinians subject to israeli law-enforcers?

Again, see above.

*** Better yet, show me where what you wrote applies to Palestinians in areas A or B. ****

I'm betting you cannot.

[DetlefK]

63. Let's try this for the last time:

Are the Westbank-Palestinians in area C subject to laws passed by the israeli legislative?

Are the Westbank-Palestinians in area C subject to decisions made by israeli courts?

Are the Westbank-Palestinians in area C subject to israeli law-enforcers?

If Yes, then the Westbank-Palestinians of Area C are de facto israeli citizens and Area C is de facto israeli territory.



My issue with this topic is how Israel exerts control over the Westbank and at the same time pretends to have no control over the Westbank.
Israel is the one with the guns and the bulldozers. The people of the state Israel are forcing their sovereignty and their will on these people and this land. Accordingly, the Westbank-Palestinians in Area C (and Area C itself) are wards of the state Israel. Except that Israel weasels its way out of the responsibilities that come with this power.

[shira]

64. Finally....it's now about area C and I admit that's your strongest argument.

Areas A & B are administered by the PA & that accounts for about 99% of all Palestinians in the W.Bank.

The answer to your questions is YES regarding the other 1% in area C. That's occupied territory. But unfortunately for your argument, the people in occupied territories throughout the last century are not considered citizens of the occupying nation.

[aranthus]

11. The historians are arguing that Israel shouldn't be Jewish.

They falsely phrase their argument in terms of democracy because they would be unmasked as antisemitic Leftists if they argued truthfully.

[Nitram]

12. No state that is tied to a religion can be a true democracy.

[aranthus]

15. Bull.

Aside from that, Jewish is a nationality as well as a religion. So: more bull.

[Nitram]

16. Try driving through an Orthodox community in Israel on Saturday.

[aranthus]

18. Which has nothing to do with whether the state is democratic.n/t

[Nitram]

25. In a democracy the rule of law is paramount.

In Israel, Orthodox Jews are allowed to throw stones at cars as they drive by because...religion.

[aranthus]

29. Where is your proof that they are "allowed"?

I'm well aware that some do, but allowed?

[Nitram]

30. I see that NetaNyahu has threateneed to shoot "stone throwers," or sentence them to 20-year terms.

Aranthus, do you believe this will apply to Jewish stone throwers?

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/hundreds-of-jews-hurl-rocks-at-cars-in-jerusalem-1.466873

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=655

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/apr/14/world/la-fg-israel-sabbath-wars-20140414

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/routine-emergencies/.premium-1.676564

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/09/jews-stone-cars-on-yom-kippur-456.html

[Little Tich]

5. The question is whether racism is in line with democratic values.

Rabbi David Wolpe seems to believe that asking that question about Israel is tantamount to being anti-Zionist and to argue against the continuation of the Jewish State of Israel. Is racism really so important for Zionism and the Jewish state, that Israel can't exist without racism?

[oberliner]

8. Israel is one of the least racist countries in the world

Certainly it is by far the least racist country in the region.

[Nitram]

14. Oberliner, on what do you base the claim that Israeel is "ne of the least

racist countries in the world?"

[Little Tich]

21. Israel is the most racist democratic country I know of.

Apart from everyone in the government being racists and the legal discrimination of non-Jewish Israelis, there's ample evidence that a large proportion of Jewish Israelis harbor racist attitudes. Here's an example:

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel Arabs, survey shows
Source: Times of Israel, March 8, 2016

Pew study finds 79% believe Jews should get preferential treatment over Arab citizens; number of those who believe settlements are helpful to Israel’s security growing; majority identify as centrist

Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/


Most Jews say Israel should give preferential treatment to Jews


Majorities of Haredim, Datim agree Arabs should be expelled


Roughly one-third of Muslims report having experienced at least one incident of discrimination in the past 12 months

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/

[shira]

31. If you ignore all threats Israel has faced since 1948...

Last edited Fri Aug 5, 2016, 04:51 PM - Edit history (4)

If you ignore Hamas and Palestinian vows to kill all the Jews, every last man, woman, and child...
And if you believe Israel is just mean and nasty for no reason other than racism...

...the FACT is that Israel still don't come close to being as racist as many EU Democracies who score worse than Israel on the 2016 Global Slavery Index. Democracies in the EU like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Czech Republic, and Slovenia. Outside the EU there's India, Argentina, and Japan. Now I know slavery isn't a big deal to the BDS movement but I don't expect to ever again see you spewing BS about Israel being the most racist democracy in the world.

[Little Tich]

35. You seem to be arguing that Israeli racism and discrimination towards Arabs is justified?

I personally think that there's no moral justification whatsoever for the attitudes revealed in the Pew poll and elsewhere. Those attitudes are wrong, regardless of whether they're expressed by Israelis, Palestinians, Germans or whatever.

Anyway, I fail to see the point in comparing levels of slavery in Israel with other countries, when my post was about racist attitudes in Israel. I think that the criticism against Zionism leveled in the OP is justified, and that the racist attitudes against Arabs is part of that justification.

[shira]

48. Just contextualizing the situation as Israel has been under attack since 1948....

No other western liberal democracy under such adversity, with enemies sworn to its destruction & the mass murder of all its civilians, would act any better WRT civil and human rights than Israel.

America actually put Japanese and German American citizens in internment camps during WW2 while the British put up to 30,000 Holocaust survivors trying to go to Israel in internment camps located in Cyprus. Holocaust survivors! They were released in 1949. Classy move there. More recently in the 1970's the Brits interned a couple thousand Irish.

I personally think that there's no moral justification whatsoever for the attitudes revealed in the Pew poll and elsewhere. Those attitudes are wrong, regardless of whether they're expressed by Israelis, Palestinians, Germans or whatever.

79% of Israeli Jews believe in preferential treatment, but what does that mean? When more than 9/10 say Israel is vital to the longterm survival of the Jewish people - and it is - is that the preferential treatment? Allowing Jews law of return - is that the preferential treatment?

Anyway, I fail to see the point in comparing levels of slavery in Israel with other countries, when my post was about racist attitudes in Israel. I think that the criticism against Zionism leveled in the OP is justified, and that the racist attitudes against Arabs is part of that justification.

You wrote about Israel being the most racist democracy in the world, and you were proven wrong.

As to expelling Arabs...which Arabs & from where? It doesn't say.

Besides, all BDS'ers support a Gaza & W.Bank that are emptied of all Jews. Hell, BDS doesn't even believe the Jews are a people (nation) deserving of self-determination. That's in the actual BDS platform, which is racist. So it's quite hypocritical for a BDS supporter like yourself making claims of racism against Israel, don't you think?

[Little Tich]

49. Perhaps we should blame anti-Semitism on "the Jews" too?

Why look for other causes for historical anti-Semitism when we can blame "the Jews" themselves for causing it?

Personally, I think that the idea of blaming racism on the targeted ethnic group is completely wrong. I refuse to acknowledge that it's morally justified to a blame and hate a whole ethnic group for the supposed ill-doing of individual members of that group. For me, racism is a form of mental deficiency where people are unable to differentiate between individuals and groups of the same ethnicity. There's no justification for racism, and the causation is to be found with the person harboring racist attitudes, not those he harbor racist attitudes against.

Bringing up instances of racism in their respective context, still doesn't make them more morally justified in any way. There's no reason why Japanese and German Americans should feel that their incarceration was a bit racist, but OK anyway. In a more contemporary context, there's no reason for Americans who get pulled over for DWB to feel it was racist, but sort of justified after all...

There have been other polls on the same subject, and taken together with the one I referred to, it's pretty clear that the desire to get preferential treatment for Jews applies to getting preferential treatment in Israel, as opposed to equal treatment in Israel for all Israelis regardless of type of citizenship. When it comes to who's supposed to get expelled, that's also pretty clear. The statement in the poll about expulsion was: "Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel", a statement that's crystal clear - it's about Israeli Arab citizens in Israel, not Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Poll: 36% of Jews want to revoke Arabs' voting rights
Source: Ynet News, 15.10.10

While few Israeli Jews say they are nationalistic, many favor anti-democratic values, survey finds

Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3969831,00.html


Poll: Half of Israeli High Schoolers Oppose Equal Rights for Arabs
Source: Haaretz, 11.03.2010

Nearly half of Israeli teens surveyed say they would refuse to evacuate West Bank settlements.

Nearly half of Israel's high school students do not believe that Israeli-Arabs are entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel, according to the results of a new survey released yesterday. The same poll revealed that more than half the students would deny Arabs the right to be elected to the Knesset.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/poll-half-of-israeli-high-schoolers-oppose-equal-rights-for-arabs-1.264564


‘Marriage to an Arab is national treason’
Source: Ynet News, 27.03.07

Recent poll reveals steep rise in racist views against Arabs in Israel; many participants feel hatred, fear when overhearing Arabic, 75 percent don’t approve of shared apartment buildings

Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html


I think that the OP is right - if Zionism is an ideology that explicitly promotes racism, it shouldn't be supported.

[shira]

53. It's not 100% due to racism. It's a matter of survival.

If Palestinians were replaced by Aryans in which more than 9/10 Aryans were Jew haters, I'm betting Israeli Jews would feel the exact same way about blonde hair and blue-eyed Aryans.

In Gaza & the W.Bank (as well as throughout the mideast) more than 90% of Arabs hate Jews...
http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-10-most-anti-semitic-countries/

2/3 of Palestinians back stabbing attacks on Jews...
http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-23-of-palestinians-back-stabbing-attacks-armed-uprising/

That's FAR, FAR worse than the articles you cite. I'm sure you have an excuse for Palestinians, so what is it?

Now imagine 2 in every 3 Aryans supporting the murder of Jews. You'd blame Jews for their racist attitudes towards Aryans?

And you probably wouldn't have a word to say about Aryans who hate Jews so much they want them murdered.

Or is there some difference you need to explain to me b/w Aryans and Palestinians?

[King_David]

34. Really? Have you ever been to Australia?

Anecdotal of course but I was surprised when I visited how overtly homophobic and racist people were in every day life.

[Little Tich]

37. I currently live in Australia, so I'm well aware of Australian racist attitudes.

I don't share the attitudes of some Australians towards non-whites at all. However, I think that Israeli racist attitudes towards Arabs seem to be on a higher level than Australia.

[King_David]

42. I've been to both Israel and Australia, and no , it's not even close .

Not sure how it could be "racist " in Israel,when half the Jews came from Arab lands and are the exact same .

[aranthus]

13. Being a Jewish State isn't racist.

What is apparent is that antisemitism is at the heart of the anti-Israel movement.

[Nitram]

17. No, but killing and maiming thousands of Palestinian civilians is.

[aranthus]

19. You are equating what Israel does to defend itself

against a war the Palestinians started, with racism? Were the Soviets racist for fighting Nazi Germany? Not to mention that now you're changing the argument. And if you don't know that Arab/Muslim chauvinism and antisemitism are at the heart of their movement, then you might want to educate yourself. The core of the Palestinian position is that Israel is illegitimate. That is why they have been fighting for so many years.

[Nitram]

26. Nazi Germany, as you probaly know, invaded Russia with thousands of tanks and

more than 3.5 million troops. I would suggest that Israel's response to a much smaller and more poorly armed enemy was not only a disproportional use of force, but possibly a war crime when the casualties among the civilian population are considered. More than 2,000 civilians killed with fewer than 100 Israeli casualties. And you have the gall to compare Israel to Russia being invaded by Nazi Germany? Russia experienced 11 million military deaths.

[aranthus]

28. And the Arabs have made war on Israel for almost 70 years.

You seem obsessed by the Gaza war in 2006, but what about the almost constant attacks on Israel since 1947? And let's be clear, those attacks started before there was an Occupation, before there were refugees, before there was any "stolen land". The comparison between Israel and the Soviet Union is that both the Arab attacks on Israel and the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union are unjust aggressions.

[Little Tich]

22. I think it's more likely that it's Israel's treatment of Palestinians that's the main cause for

criticism of Israel.

Blaming all criticism of Israel on anti-Semitism is offensive to those who aren't anti-Semites, and it doesn't help Israel or the Palestinians.

[aranthus]

27. Based on what?

Last edited Fri Aug 5, 2016, 08:00 PM - Edit history (2)

First of all, I wasn't blaming all criticism of Israel on antisemitism. I said that antisemitism was at the heart of the anti-Israel movement. So please deal with what I have written instead of re-writing it to suit your agenda.

Second, to get to the heart of the anti-Israel movement, don't you think that we have to first understand what is at the core of Palestinian opposition to Israel? After all, the movement claims to support the Palestinians, right? So shouldn't we look to what Palestinians believe and want to figure out what the movement is about? So here is what Palestinians believe as told by a former lawyer for Hamas recently on Mondoweiss: "In the view of Palestinians, the state of Israel has never possessed legitimacy, not by international standards, as it was founded on expulsion, land-theft and military occupation" - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/07/israel-cant-win/#sthash.u59nTtj5.dpuf

Leaving aside for the moment that Israel being founded on "expulsion, land-theft and military occupation," is a pack of lies up there with the blood libel, the core of the entire conflict is Palestinian rejection of the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Hatefulness to Jewish national existence is antisemitism by definition, so the core of the Palestinian position is antisemitism. Add to that the problem that so much of the Palestinian understanding of the conflict is the aforementioned gross set of lies. Because Israel could have come into existence without any expulsion, land theft (to the extent that there was any), military occupation, refugees, etc., and would have if it were not for the war that the Arabs started to destroy the Jewish state. And why did they start said war, if there hadn't yet been any land theft, expulsions, refugees, etc.? Because they rejected Jewish nationalism outright.

I won't go into the massive amount of evidence of antisemitism in BDS, because others have made it so readily available on this site. Likewise the growing antisemitism on campus hiding behind the mask of "anti-Zionism," "Palestinian rights," or "enforcing international law." It's all readily apparent to to honest observers. My point, therefore, is that while not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, the core of the anti-Israel position is founded in antisemitism.

What I do want to point out is why you disagree with my above analysis. I don't have time for a long drawn out discussion, and I think you've made your position clear enough. So here are the reasons you disagree.

1. You agree with the antisemites that Israel has no legitimacy as a Jewish state.
2. You buy into the lie that Israel was created on, "expulsion, land-theft and military occupation."
3. You buy into the lie that the Palestinians are only trying to win their freedom, rather than destroy the Jewish state.
4. There really are things to criticize Israel for, but you conflate those real issues with what the Palestinians are fighting for.

If you want to reply fine.

[Little Tich]

38. Gee, thanks making my arguments for me...

I don't really know who this "anti-Israeli movement" is, but I don't think that the people who wrote OP criticized Zionism because they're anti-Semitic or part of any "anti-Israeli movement". I'm much more interested in the criticism of Israel/Zionism as it's laid out in the OP rather than some badly defined straw man. And even if all your arguments were true, do they really justify what's being done to the Palestinians in the name of Zionism?

There are some people who believe that the democratic values of the US should be applied to Israel too, you know...

[aranthus]

45. Just as I thought, you don't have one.

If you don't understand that BDS is anti-Israel, well, I just don't believe you. The problem with the "criticism" of Zionism in the OP is that it's a pack of lies, that ignores The Arab hostility to Jewish national existence that is the root cause of the conflict. It's like complaining how awful and unjustified it was of the Americans to nuke Hiroshima when the Japanese weren't doing anything to anyone. You don't like straw men? The entire OP is a straw man.

[Little Tich]

50. I don't think the OP is a straw man.

Interestingly, the OP seems to be extremely difficult to refute. The straw men are actually provided by those who try to frame the issue into a Hamas/BDS/Jew-hating/Yargablargh context.

The question is whether regardless of what the root causes of the conflict are, does it really justify what Israel is doing?

Is ethnic discrimination due to whatever absolutely necessary reason that's cited that particular day really justified?

Should ethnic discrimination in the name of Zionism be supported?

[shira]

56. Of course it is. The vicious, racist, genocidal hatreds of Palestinian leaders....

...are completely ignored.

Two-thirds of Palestinians who support stabbing attacks - Ignored.

More than 9/10 Arabs throughout the mideast & in Gaza/W.Bank with anti-semitic attitudes (Pew survey) - Ignored.

Palestinians have no personal responsibility, no moral agency.

That stinks of racism.

[shira]

58. They're bigoted towards religious Jews as well...

Nor do I need to say that the exponential growth of far right political parties and the increasing Haredization of Israel, makes it a place that I abhor visiting, and to which I will contribute no money, whose products I will not buy, nor will I expend my limited but still to me, meaningful, political clout to support it.

What tolerance!

Imagine the same gag reflex living among religious Palestinian Arabs or religious Islamic nations surrounding Israel.

The article reeks of racism.

[shira]

59. More silliness from the OP...

The Law of Return can no longer look to me as anything other than racism.

Sure.
What's racist is denying the Jews safe haven from antisemitism throughout the world. Denying they are a people worthy of self-determination like any other people/nation on the planet.

When more than 9/10 Jews believe Israel is vital to the long term survival of world Jewry, that's kinda important. The LoR is not racist, but ignoring the Holocaust and the fact Jews are still being attacked throughout the world is what's racist.

I abhor violence, bombings, stabbings, or whatever hurtful means oppressed individuals resort to out of anger and frustration. And yet, I am not surprised when they do so, after so many decades of occupation, with no evidence of progress.

Sheer idiocy. Why are the Tibetans such slackers for not bombing, stabbing, etc..?

And no progress? What about the Gaza withdrawal, the PA administering 99% of W.Bank Palestinians? Several offers to end the occupation, settlements, split Jerusalem...?

[Little Tich]

65. Some people look at the right of return as a right to return to their ancestral homeland,

not as a safe haven.

There are people who make aliyah who are not in physical danger or even discriminated against. If it's about being indigenous to Israel, then every person indigenous to Israel should be allowed to return - Jews and Palestinians alike. The Law of return only allows for one ethnic group to return.

So, of course the Law of Return is racist. Duh.

[shira]

66. You believe the LoR is racist because you support the destruction of the Jewish state....

If you had your way, Jews would be returning to an Arab majority nation ruled similarly to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and/or S.Arabia. In your scenario there wouldn't be 2 states, but rather 1. And if 2, both would be Arab majority, so what's the point?

The point is that your BDS movement doesn't recognize a Jewish people. And being that the Jews are not a people, they don't merit their own nation or sovereignty. That's the racist BDS movement, as racist as denying the Palestinians are a people.

Why would indigenous or endangered Jews worldwide want to return to medieval rule & to a racist, Arab majority apartheid state like those surrounding Israel today? In your scenario, the long term survival of Jews worldwide would be endangered.

That's racist. Duh.

[Little Tich]

67. So racism is a necessary component of Zionism then?

That would actually justify the argumentation in the OP - if racism is wrong, then there's no point in supporting a racist ideology like Zionism...

[shira]

68. Zionism = Indigenous Jewish people reclaiming their country, self-rule.....

A very progressive, liberal movement.

Anyone against any indigenous movement like Zionism is racist.

Article 1 in Part 1 of the United Nations Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states that "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development".[1]

BDS is racist in that it denies Jews are a people worthy of self-determination. You support BDS.

Next?

[Little Tich]

69. Ah. So what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in the name of Zionism would be considered racism if

it wasn't for the fact that it's done to promote Jewish self-determination?

So perhaps the authors of the OP have failed to understand that racism can be justified sometimes, and that it's not considered racism when it's justified...

I see...

[shira]

70. That's the BDS movement, thinking their goal of destroying the Jewish state....

Last edited Wed Aug 10, 2016, 06:59 AM - Edit history (1)

...isn't the least bit racist once the land is Arab majority ruled with Jews living in fear as they do throughout the mideast today. It's the BDS movement that's racist when they deny Jews are a people worthy of self-determination. I'm assuming we both agree that BDS is racist since you fail to defend it.

Zionism is an indigenous rights movement. It's not against Palestinian self-determination being that Israel has agreed to recognize a Palestinian state since 1947.

[Little Tich]

71. I feel that the OP is running out of steam.

My impression of this discussion here and elsewhere is that the OP is really hard to refute. The relevant arguments have been presented and countered, and I think that if some people agree with the OP, perhaps Zionism isn't for them.

Over to you...

[shira]

74. The OP has been refuted as utter idiocy throughout the discussion here. n/t

[shira]

75. Law of Return is only racist when Israel does it, right?

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-law-of-return-only-racist-when-israel-does-it/

Yes, the Law of Return clearly constitutes an example of ethnic favoritism. However, Israel is far from alone from enacting such a law. There are many other countries across the globe that favor one ethnicity over all others in regards to immigration. This principle is called jus sanguinis (Latin for right of blood). Countries that invoke jus sanguinis laws include, among others:

Armenia – Article 14 of the Constitution of the Republic of Armenia states “Individuals of Armenian origin shall acquire citizenship of the Republic of Armenia through a simplified procedure.”
Bulgaria – Article 25(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of Bulgaria states “A person of Bulgarian origin shall acquire Bulgarian citizenship through a facilitated procedure.”
Croatia – Article 16 of the Law on Croatian Citizenship states “A person who belongs to the Croatian people with no domicile in the Republic of Croatia can acquire Croatian citizenship if he fulfills the requirements of Article 8, Paragraph 1, Point 5 of this Act.”
Hungary – Section 4(3) of the Hungarian Citizenship Act states “If the requirements set out in Paragraphs b) and d) of Subsection (1) are satisfied, upon request a non-Hungarian citizen whose ascendant was a Hungarian citizen or who is able to substantiate of being of Hungarian origin may be naturalized on preferential terms, if he/she proves that he/she is sufficiently proficient in the Hungarian language. “
Lithuania – Article 32(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of Lithuania states “Everyone who is Lithuanian may settle in Lithuania.”
Poland – Article 52(5) of the Constitution of the Republic of Poland states “Anyone whose Polish origin has been confirmed in accordance with statute may settle permanently in Poland.”
Serbia – Article 23 of the Law on Citizenship of the Republic of Serbia states “A member of Serbian or another nation or ethnic group from the territory of the Republic of Serbia, who is not residing in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, can be admitted to citizenship of the Republic of Serbia if he is 18 years old and if he is not deprived of working capacity and if he submits a written statement considering the Republic of Serbia his own state.”

How come we never hear any of the countries listed above being accused of apartheid? Or what about countries like Algeria, Bangladesh, Brunei, Djibouti, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, the United Arab Emirates or Yemen that don’t even allow Israeli passport holders to enter their country. Bahrain, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen take it a step further and deny entry to anyone who has an Israeli stamp in their passport, regardless of nationality. Where is all the angst over that?

There is a difference between the Jewish people and all the ethnic groups listed above. The Jewish people have been subjected to persecution for centuries after being exiled from their land by the Romans in 70 CE. The other ethnic groups have not been expelled from their land or suffered the persecution the Jews have experienced. The Jewish people are still recovering from their expulsion from the Land of Israel almost 2,000 years ago.

There are also more western EU and NATO nations...

Greece: Ethnic Greeks can obtain Greek citizenship by two methods under the Code of Greek Nationality. Article 5 allows ethnic Greeks who are stateless (which, in practice, includes those who voluntarily renounce their nationality) to obtain citizenship upon application to a Greek consular official.

Italy: The nationality law of Italy bestows citizenship jure sanguinis. There is no limit of generations for the citizenship via blood. However, the first citizens of the modern Italian state were alive on 17 March 1861 when the state was officially formed, and for this reason all claims of Italian citizenship by jure sanguinis must stem from an ancestor who was living after 16 March 1861.

Spain: A Spanish law passed in 2015 allows individuals who can prove descent from the Sephardic Jews who were exiled in 1492 following the Alhambra Decree and who can show a "special link" to Spain to apply for dual citizenship. Spain had previously allowed application for such individuals but had required that they give up their citizenship from their other country. The new law has no such requirement.[13]

Turkey: Turkish law allows persons of Turkish origin and their spouse and children, to apply for naturalization without the five-year waiting period applicable to other immigrants. Turkey and Greece reciprocally expelled their minorities in the early 1920s after World War I. They were mandated by international treaty to accept incoming populations as citizens based on ethnic background.

But it's only racist when Israel does it.

Is that right?

[Little Tich]

76. It's a good question and you deserve an answer.

The Law of Return in Israel and all the other similar laws in other countries aren't racist in themselves, but they do become racist if and when they discriminate against other persons of other ethnicities who can make the same claim to the right of return. If someone has an ethnic/historic tie to their homeland in Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland,Serbia, Greece, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Israel, but are not of the "right" ethnicity, they should be awarded the right of return nevertheless, or the law would be discriminatory. Some of the countries you mentioned are EU countries, so they've got to follow the rules of the ECHR, which would force them to adopt the law to anyone with the same claim as someone with the "right" ethnicity. for example if there was no law awarding Sephardic Jews the right of return to Spain, such a law would have to be passed if any Sephardic Jews made a petition to the ECHR.

What I'm trying to say is that if Israel was a member of the EU, the Law of Return would have to be extended to Palestinians as well, or it would be considered legal discrimination. It's already morally discriminatory and not consistent with democratic values, and one of the reasons why Israel is a racist state.

Your argument about other countries doesn't give Israel an excuse to allow some and deny others their right to reside in their ancestral homeland based only on their ethnicity.

[shira]

77. Israel's LoR policy is no different than other western nations....

Last edited Wed Aug 17, 2016, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Since those western nations are never called out by the bigoted BDS crew, then neither should Israel be called out for same.

One standard for all.

I challenge you to find instances where those other nations are called out for being racist due to their LoR policies, especially given that none allow citizenship to people hostile to that nation's very existence. And why should they?

In Israel's case 2 of every 3 Palestinians supports stabbing attacks against civilians. I take it you believe Israel should allow hostiles in as well, for "human rights" reasons, even if they're a serious threat to peace. Besides, sovereignty is the cornerstone of International Law. Israel is under no obligation to undertake any action that would cause its dissolution.

These accusations of bigotry are all lies & bullshit. Remember, it's the constant stream of lies against Israel that expose Jew haters for who and what they are.

[shira]

47. BDS calls for the destruction of the Jewish state & supports terror....

....therefore there's no question it's anti-Israel.

You've seen the evidence for yourself from Mondoweiss numerous times and that vile rat's nest of a website is undoubtedly the #1 resource on the internet for BDS'ers.

What's with your pretending BDS isn't anti-Israel?

[Israeli]

6. Fascinating follow up to your OP Little Tich.....

There has been a twitter war going on since it was published .

The religious right wing blog Israellycool posted some of the details yesterday , see :

http://www.israellycool.com/2016/08/02/haaretz-ripped-for-hating-on-jews/

Now our Gideon has responded to Jeffrey Goldberg,....... great read , see :

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.735126

According to Goldberg, Haaretz is doing something unforgiveable: it’s shattering his fantasy. Because of an op-ed piece in which two American-Jewish historians explain why they’ve abandoned Zionism, as well as a piece of my own (“Yes, Israel is an evil state,” July 31), the liberal Goldberg has decided he’s had enough of Haaretz. He tweeted to his 107,000 Twitter followers that these sort of pieces make him sick. Neo-Nazis, he said, have been distributing my op-ed, so he was going to have to “take a break” from Haaretz.

I would love to know who those neo-Nazis are. After all, neo-Nazis and the radical right are now some of Israel’s best friends. Did Goldberg mean to say that BDS advocates are neo-Nazis? And besides, I’m not sure I understand. What, the pieces are true, but it’s only the way they’re used that angers Goldberg? Should they not be published because neo-Nazis disseminate them? Or are the articles not actually true?

Behind this lies the greatest boorishness of all: the rather primitive idea that Israel’s critics are the ones giving it a bad name, not its actions and policies. That criticism of Israel was born of articles in Haaretz, not the crimes of the occupation. The video footage released Tuesday showing a Border Policeman throwing the bike of a terrified Palestinian girl into the bushes in Hebron did more damage to Israel than all of my pieces in Haaretz combined.

Goldberg probably thought it should never have been posted, because of the neo-Nazis.

[Little Tich]

24. This is fun...

This subject just keeps on giving, and it seems as if a lot of big names are lining up to throw their hats in the ring. Hasia Diner and Marjorie Feld really touched a nerve...

[shira]

32. Diner & Feld are being lambasted for being idiots.

They go to show that many intelligent people make some really dumb arguments sometimes.

[Little Tich]

39. I think that all attempts to refute the OP have failed sofar. Hasia Diner and Marjorie Feld are

hardly idiots.

It's actually possible that Zionism is indeed a racist ideology, that there is Israeli discrimination of non-Jews and that the occupation is a tool for oppressing Palestinians. If all this is true, then there's no reason for those who are against all forms of racism and discrimination, even when it's to promote Zionism, to support it. No form of argument can change that...

It's actually a bit sad to see so many great names arguing all kinds of things while trying to deflect from the real issue. Is it all only about whether we should accept racism in the name of Zionism or not?

[shira]

46. It's an idiotic article. Here's an example...

The death of vast numbers of Jewish communities as a result of Zionist activity has impoverished the Jewish people, robbing us of these many cultures that have fallen into the maw of Israeli homogenization.

WTF is that stupidity?

Naziism and the expulsion of 800,000 Jews from Arab lands is the reason for the death of Jewish communities in the diaspora.

The ideal of a religiously neutral state worked amazingly well for the millions of Jews who came to America.

Well, except for the fact Jews were turned back & weren't allowed into America during the 1940's.



There's more but that's enough. The article is a waste of time & an insult to the intelligence of any thinking person.

[Little Tich]

51. I think the OP has a valid point when it comes to Jewish communities not in Israel.

Their existence and identity shouldn't have to be connected to Israel and classified as not yet returned or soon to be assimilated. People in those communities may have their own ideas of where and how they want to live, and there's no reason to interfere. The Shoah and the flight from pogroms in the Arab world shouldn't be used as an excuse.

[shira]

60. More than 9 in 10 Jews worldwide have a strong connection with Israel...

...and they believe Israel is vital to the long-term survival of the Jewish people.

The OP is stupid.

[Israeli]

40. For sure ......

......even Amos Schocken gave his two cents worth ........which kind of surprised me .

Even more fun is the Hebrew tweets that followed

[Little Tich]

43. Did Gilad Erdan just imply that Haaretz is a threat to Israel's democracy?

https://twitter.com/JeffreyGoldberg/status/760381651830661120

found this when looking at the other tweets on the subject...

[Israeli]

44. LOL.........

But I'm not criticizing Haaretz on behalf of the Likud.

My moment .......

Chaim Levinson ?@chaimlevinson Aug 2
@JeffreyGoldberg @giladerdan1 Jeffrey it's seems that u r deeply concerned about israel democracy. please come live here and help us.

[Israeli]

72. Fun could be over ...

....Im talking about tweeting freely ....

How Israel is trying to enforce gag orders beyond its borders

At Israel’s request, Twitter is blocking Israelis from viewing certain tweets published overseas. Similar take-down notices have been sent to other international online platforms, the Justice Ministry confirms.

http://972mag.com/how-israel-is-trying-to-enforce-gag-orders-beyond-its-borders/121266/

[Little Tich]

73. Perhaps the Israeli government should spend more time protecting children than censoring twitter.

I've visited Silverstein's blog before, but now it suddenly became much more interesting...

[King_David]

33. You should put all your posts into a blog "israeycool -watch" would be a good name...

Never heard of them before you started reporting on them ... Thanks.

[Israeli]

41. You are welcome KD ....

.....there is an old adage ....know thy enemy.......

[Little Tich]

23. How Did Zionism Become a Dirty Word on Campus?

Source: The Forward, by J.J. Goldberg, August 3, 2016

Sooner or later we’re going to have to face the facts: Zionism has become a dirty word in certain precincts — important and growing precincts — of the Western society that we call home.

It’s unfair. It’s short-sighted. Given the way things are headed, the end could be tragic. But it is a reality. Zionism has become a dirty word in far too many places, and the stain is spreading. And yes, this matters. Israel still faces physical threats, and will continue to face threats even if it makes peace with its neighbors. It needs friends. Right now its friendships are endangered.

The latest bit of evidence is the essay in Haaretz the other day by a pair of noted historians of American Jewry, Hasia Diner and Majorie Feld, explaining, as the headline put it, “Why We Left Zionism Behind.” How they came to abhor Israel.

Diner, a professor at New York University and one of the leading scholars of American Jewish history, writes of how her love for Israel, instilled as a child in the Habonim youth movement, turned into “repulsion” as she learned more about “colonialism and racism.” How she stopped buying Israeli products and began to “avoid many Jewish settings where I know Israel will loom large as an icon of identity.”

Feld, a professor at Babson College, writes of how she “reeducated” herself after being browbeaten by a devotee of Noam Chomsky and came to understand how “Israel fit neatly into my broader understanding of Western colonialism.”

Read more: http://forward.com/opinion/346802/how-did-zionism-become-a-dirty-word-on-campus/

Note: J.J. Goldberg and Jeffrey Goldberg are different persons.

[Little Tich]

36. The ‘New York Times’ is dead set on marginalizing Jewish anti-Zionism

Source: Mondoweiss, by Philip Weiss, August 3, 2016

The New York Times is pointedly ignoring an important news story: the rise of Jewish anti-Zionism. A battle is taking place among Jews over the dead end that Jewish nationalism represents, but the paper of record is doing all it can to pretend that battle isn’t happening, or that only lunatics are engaged, and thereby suffocate an explosive discussion.

Two days ago Haaretz ran two stunning op-eds by American Jewish historians Hasia Diner and Marjorie Feld titled, “We’re American Jewish Historians. This Is Why We’ve Left Zionism Behind,” saying that they cannot go comfortably into Jewish spaces that deny the Nakba any more. Diner, a professor at New York University, related a struggle that will resonate in the hearts of many other American Jews:

The Israel that I loved, the one my parents embraced as the closest approximation to Eden on earth, itself had depended well before 1967 upon the expropriation of Arab lands and the expulsion of Arab populations. The Law of Return can no longer look to me as anything other than racism. I abhor violence, bombings, stabbings, or whatever hurtful means oppressed individuals resort to out of anger and frustration. And yet, I am not surprised when they do so, after so many decades of occupation, with no evidence of progress.

I feel a sense of repulsion when I enter a synagogue in front of which the congregation has planted a sign reading, “We Stand With Israel.” I just do not go and avoid many Jewish settings where I know Israel will loom large as an icon of identity.

Then yesterday Haaretz ran a great piece by Gideon Levy titled, “Stop living in denial, Israel is an evil state,” which cited the detention of Palestinian poet Dareen Tatour and the cruel imprisonment/detention of the Palestinian hunger striker Bilal Kayed as examples of “evil.”

Levy quoted Eva Illouz, a Hebrew University professor who has also used the term “evil” for Israeli practices and who described the occupation as “slavery.”

Two days ago, Haaretz ran a piece by Yitchak Laor characterizing Israeli society as fascist: “the volk has come to overshadow all other institutions – democracy, the law, the army. Not to mention Palestinian blood.”

Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/08/determined-marginalize-zionism/