Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumYes, Netanyahu, Let's Talk About Ethnic Cleansing
Source: Haaretz, by Gideon Levy
Turning Israeli settlers into victims is the prime minister's most staggering act of chutzpah yet. The only mass ethnic cleansing that took place here was in 1948, when some 700,000 Arabs were forced to leave their lands.
Israel knows a thing or two about ethnic cleansing. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu knows a thing or two about propaganda. The video he posted on Friday proves both points. Heres the real thing yet another record for Israeli chutzpah: The evacuation of settlers from the West Bank (which has never happened, and presumably never will) is ethnic cleansing.
Yes, the state that brought you the great cleansing of 1948 and that has never, deep in its heart, given up on the dream of cleansing, and that never stopped carrying out methodical microcleansings in the Jordan Valley, in the South Hebron Hills, in the area of Maaleh Adumim and in the Negev, too that state calls the removal of settlers ethnic cleansing. That state compares the invaders of the occupied territories with the children of the land who clung onto their lands and homes.
Netanyahu proved once more that he is the real thing, the most authentic representative of the Israeliness that created reality for itself: Turning night into day, shamelessly and without any sense of guilt, without inhibition.
In Israel, many people, perhaps a majority, will buy these goods. The settlers of the Gaza Strip became expellees, their removal deportation. Not only is an aggressive and violent action settlement legitimate, but its agents are victims.
Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.741296
Note: Haaretz Premium article - Google title for access.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 12, 2016, 06:21 AM - Edit history (2)
The fact is that Israel haters do not believe Jews have any right to live in the W.Bank or Gaza.
Trotting out little racists like Gideon Levy doesn't help here.
Israeli haters do not believe that Jews have any right to live in the West Bank, Gaza or Israel. That is the basis of the conflict.
shira
(30,109 posts)Now it's just the opposite, to GTFO.
Same exact hatred.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,300 posts).....not a secret ......see my sig
Arutz 7 shira ????? !!!!!!!
Seriously ..........
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,300 posts)...
In your dreams shira .
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,300 posts)....would these future Jewish settlers be willing to live under Palestinian rule ???
Without the back up of the IDF ????
I seriously doubt it .
Withdraw the Army and they wiil all crawl back to Brooklyn .
Just a reminder .......those Jewish settlers.......
They can choose to ....If you truly believe in a two state solution ....they can choose to leave or to stay .....if they choose to stay .....then should it be based on their believe of reconciliation ( which IMHO is nothing but a pile of horseshit )...........
or their believe that God promised them Judea and Samaria ?????????
We are heading towards a civil war shira ......
shira
(30,109 posts)Without the back up of the IDF ????
I seriously doubt it .
I think they'd be crazy to do it but they should have that choice.
The PA should guarantee their safety, just as they would any other citizens of Palestine.
or their believe that God promised them Judea and Samaria ?????????
Who cares why they'd stay? Their choice, their ancestral & cultural indigenous homeland. They don't have to be religious at all to believe that's their historical homeland. That's just a fact of history.
Doubt it.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)....nobody wants it ...least of all us ....but that is where we are heading never the less ...
Civil War?
03/08/13
IT IS now fashionable to say that the two-state solution is dead. Or: Time for the two-state solution is running out.
Why dead? How dead? Its one of those things that need no proof. To say it is enough.
If pressed, though, the fake mourners of the two-state solution give a reason: there are just too many settlers in the West Bank and Jerusalem. They cant be removed. Its just impossible.
Is it?
TWO EXAMPLES are cited as evidence: the removal of the North Sinai settlements by Menachem Begin under the peace treaty with Egypt, and the removal of the Gaza Strip settlements by Ariel Sharon.
How terrible they were! Remember the heart-rending scenes on TV, the weeping female soldiers carrying struggling settler girls away, the Auschwitz pajamas with the yellow star worn by the settlers, the storming of the rooftops, the rabbis with their Torah scrolls weeping in unison in the synagogues.
All this for just a handful of settlements. What will happen if half a million people have to be removed? Awful! Unthinkable!
Nonsense.
Actually, the removal of the Gaza Strip settlers was nothing but a well-staged tragicomedy. Nobody was killed. Nobody was seriously injured. Nobody committed suicide, whatever their threats. After playing their assigned roles, all the settlers left the stage. Only a handful of soldiers and police officers refused to obey orders. The bulk of the army carried out the instructions of the democratically elected government.
Will the same happen again? Not necessarily. Removing West Bank settlers from the hilltops in the heart of Biblical Eretz Israel is something else.
Lets look at it from close up
.
THE FIRST stage of planning is to analyze the problem. Who are these settlers that have to be removed?
Well, first of all they are not a homogenous, monolithic force. When one speaks of the settlers, one sees before ones minds eye a mass of half-crazed, religious fanatics, expecting the messiah at any moment, ready to shoot anyone who comes to remove them from their strongholds.
This is pure imagination.
There are such settlers, of course. They are the hard core, the ones who appear on television. The ones who set fire to mosques in Palestinian villages, who attack Palestinian farmers in their fields, who fell olive trees. They have long hair, including side locks, wear the obligatory fringed garment under or over their shirts, dance their odd dances, are so very, very different from ordinary Israelis.
Almost all of these are new-born Jews (known in Hebrew as those who go back in remorse), and are heartily despised by real orthodox Jews, who would not marry their daughters to them. But they are a tiny minority.
Much more important is the so-called national-religious core, the real leadership of the settlement enterprise. They believe that God has given us this land, all of it, and many of them believe that God also ordered them to cleanse all the land between the sea and the river (the Mediterranean and the Jordan) of non-Jews. Some of them believe, anyhow, that non-Jews are not full human beings, but something between humans and animals, as held by the Kabbala.
This group has enormous political power. It is they who dragged successive governments of all parties, into putting them where they are sometimes unwillingly, sometimes more than willingly.
They are concentrated in the smaller settlements, dispersed all over the occupied territories. They have infiltrated the army and the government apparatus and terrify the politicians. Their party is the Jewish Home led by Naftali Bennett, the brother of Yair Lapid, but they also have close ties with the upcoming young leadership of the Likud and Liebermans crowd.
Any government interested in making peace will have to grapple with them. But they are a minority among the settlers.
THE MAJORITY of the settlers are less vocal. They are mostly concentrated in the settlement blocs that are strung along the Green Line, extending a few kilometers inside the occupied territories.
They are called quality of life settlers, because they went there to enjoy the clean air and the picturesque sight of Muslim minarets nearby, but mainly because they got their dream-villas, with the Swiss red-tile roofs, for next to nothing. They could not dream of ever acquiring anything similar in Israel proper.
A category by itself are the orthodox. Their huge natural increase is crowding them out of their towns and neighborhoods in Israel proper, and they desperately need new housing, which the government is only too happy to provide in the occupied territories. They already have several towns there, one of which is Modiin Illit, the border town which is located on the lands of Bilin, the village fighting an epic battle to get them back.
Quite another story is the settlements in East Jerusalem. The hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews now living in the new neighborhoods there do not think of themselves as settlers at all, they have forgotten all about the Green Line. Indeed, they are quite surprised when reminded of it. It may be just a few blocks away.
ALL THESE categories - and the many sub-categories must be dealt with separately. For each, there is a different solution.
Lets assume, for arguments sake, that in nine months Kerrys Dream will come true. There will be a signed peace agreement solving all problems, with an agreed timetable for implementation.
Lets further assume that this agreement is approved by a large majority in an Israeli referendum (and in a Palestinian one, too.) This would give our government the political and moral power to tackle the settlement problem.
For the Jerusalemites, Bill Clinton had a simple answer: Leave them where they are. Redraw the map of Jerusalem in such a way that what is Jewish will become part of Israel, what is Arab will be part of Palestine.
Considering the immense difficulty of unscrambling the omelet there, this has its attractions, especially if full sovereignty over the Temple Mount and the Old City is restored to the Palestinians (and the Western Wall with the Jewish Quarter remains in Israel).
For the big settlement blocs, the solution is already more or less agreed: territorial swaps. The settlements hard on the border will be annexed by Israel, Israeli territory of equal size (though, perhaps, not of equal quality) will be turned over to Palestine.
This may not be quite as easy as it sounds. Annex the settlements only, or also the land around and between them? And what about Ariel, the settlers capital, which is located 20 km inside the West Bank? A corridor? An enclave? And Maaleh Adumim, which, if annexed to Jewish Jerusalem, would almost cut the West Bank in two? Plenty to argue about.
The quality of life settlers must be bought out. Its a simple question of money. Give any of them an equivalent or an even better apartment near Tel Aviv and most of them will jump at it. Indeed, some polls have shown that quite a number of them would move even today, if such an offer were made. (We suggested this to Yitzhak Rabin, but he refused.)
There remain the hard-core settlers, the ideological ones, those who serve God by living on stolen land. What about them?
THE SIMPLEST solution was that provided by Charles de Gaulle. After signing the peace agreement that put an end to the occupation of Algeria after a hundred years, he announced that the French army would leave the country on a certain date. He told the more than a million settlers, many of them fourth or fifth generation: If you want to leave, leave. If you want to stay, stay. The result was a last minute frantic mass exodus of historic dimensions.
I cant imagine an Israeli leader bold enough to follow that prescription. Even Ariel Sharon, a brutal person without compassion, didnt dare to.
Of course, the Israeli government could tell these settlers: If you can make arrangements with the Palestinian government so you can stay there, as Palestinian citizens (or even as Israeli citizens), by all means do so.
Some naïve Israelis say: Why not? There are a million and a half Arab citizens in Israel. Why cant there be some hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews in Palestine?
Unlikely. The Arabs in Israel live on their own land, where they have lived for centuries. The settlers live on expropriated land, and they have justly earned the hatred of their neighbors. I dont see how a Palestinian government could allow it.
There remains the hard core of the hard core. Those who will not budge without violence. They will have to be removed forcibly by a strong government supported by the bulk of public opinion, expressed through the referendum.
A civil war? Not really. Nothing like the American Civil War, nor like the present Syrian one. But still a hard, violent, brutal struggle, in which blood will be shed.
Do I look forward to it? Certainly not. Does it frighten me? Yes it does. Do I think it means we should give up the future of Israel, give up peace, give up the two-state solution, the only solution there is?
No!
Source : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1375385593/
shira
(30,109 posts)Some naïve Israelis say: Why not? There are a million and a half Arab citizens in Israel. Why cant there be some hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews in Palestine?
Unlikely. The Arabs in Israel live on their own land, where they have lived for centuries. The settlers live on expropriated land, and they have justly earned the hatred of their neighbors. I dont see how a Palestinian government could allow it.
This is simply racist. The lie that Jews have no right to live in E.Jerusalem, Hebron, or anywhere else in historic Judea/Samaria where Jews had lived for thousands of years. This is why there can't be peace anytime soon. Once it's established that Jews have as much right to live in that part of the world as anyone else - and Palestinian leaders make it clear to their own people that's the case - then there can be peace. Not a moment sooner.
............you and yours murdered peace on the night of 12th of Marcheshvan 5756 .
You seriously think that we have moved on ?
That we are going to forgive you and yours ?????........
https://www.amazon.com/Murder-name-God-Yitzhak-Rabin/dp/1862072418
shira
(30,109 posts)....for ethnic cleansing. Only the Jews.
And spare me your BS about Rabin. He was a lifelong Zionist and would never approve of your post- / anti- Zionist politics. Your anti-Zionist "friends" of BDS despise him & cast him as no better than a Kahanist or Likudnik. This doesn't bother you one iota. So I'm sorry but your bullshit isn't convincing to anyone.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)....and BTW ....you would not know an Israeli post zionist if one bit you on the ass
shira
(30,109 posts).....and every last one hates and reviles Rabin as well as the 2-state solution. But these are your BDS buddies! Your politics are basically their politics. Rabin would call them out for the freak shows they are, but they're still closer allies to the post-zionists than any Zionists are. And you wonder why all the post-Zionists in Israel can hardly fill a banquet hall.
Feh.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)FYI I was a Zionist ....up and until Rabin's assassination ....voted for him every time .
Turned me totally and completely against our religious Right wing .....and not just me shira .
So we have gone from " a small room " to a " banquet hall " ......
I guess that is progress ?.....
shira
(30,109 posts)....and everything he ever stood for.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)....I loved Rabin " and everything he ever stood for. " .........I hate those that murdered him
shira
(30,109 posts)You said it yourself, "racism is about targeting a person or a group due to their ethnicity".
Gideon Levy does exactly that & yet you pretend there's nothing racist about him and keep peddling his hatred here.
So I ask, WTF?
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/jewish-people-are-just-that-people-and-far-from-chosen-1.388870
Another from Gideon Levy...
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.669005
Blatant racist attack on all Jews, which you would recognize if aimed at Palestinians.
Again, WTF?
Israeli
(4,300 posts)Source : http://prospect.org/article/so-let-settlers-stay-they-wont
shira
(30,109 posts)What does the author fear by answering? That answer is the reason there's no peaceful 2 state solution. The author is a fraud.
He also conceded it's ethnic cleansing. There's really no better description. The PA doesn't have a problem with the many Arab Israelis who live in area C, only with Jews. Abbas even admitted he doesn't want any Jews before he corrected himself by saying no Israelis. But the 2 terms are synonymous to anyone familiar with Abbas. When Abbas refers to Israeli Arabs, he calls them Palestinians - not Israeli Arabs and certainly not just Israelis.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)LOL .....thats the best you can do shira ???? .........
shira
(30,109 posts)Why would nearly all Jewish settlers, if given the chance to stay under Palestinian rule, prefer to move back over the green line?
Israeli
(4,300 posts)......how long do you think they would survive without the IDF shira ???
shira
(30,109 posts).....why there will be no genuine peace agreement anytime soon. For some reason Gorenberg didn't include that in his article and we both know why.
....we withdrew from the Gush because we had enough of our sons dying for your ideology .
If it comes to our sons dying once again for your ideology ......we prefer to remove our sons and let you fight it out .....without us .
shira
(30,109 posts)End the occupation with no peace agreement? Then don't claim you're in the peace camp.
If Hamas or ISIS takes over in the W.Bank, because we know the stronger party will fill the vacuum & without the IDF there the PA will go down - that's okay? Iran, Hamas, Al Qaeda, and ISIS will move its people into E.Jerusalem neighborhoods. Tel Aviv and Haifa will become that much closer to these monsters wanting all Jews dead.
You think you'll be safer? Fewer Israelis dead?
Seriously?
My ideology is 2 states based on genuine peace. Not pulling out of the W.Bank so that hostiles calling for genocide of all Jews (and acting on that) take over & a full out war on Jews becomes imminent.
Israeli
(4,300 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Simply calling for a pullout from the W.Bank is not peace.
No more than it was when Israel pulled out of Gaza or Lebanon.
So?
Israeli
(4,300 posts)..................let them stay .
Without us shira ........without our sons and daughters that despise their ideology .
http://forward.com/opinion/131316/shades-of-algeria-on-the-west-bank/
So ?........if its impossible to remove them , as they keep telling us ....lets do as de Gaulle did ...and remove the army .
shira
(30,109 posts)How do you "force" the Palestinian leadership to agree to a genuine peace agreement where settlers have a good chance of staying safe in the W.Bank should they stay?
Israeli
(4,300 posts)The number of settlers who would stay under those conditions could meet in a small cafe in Ramallah, perhaps at one table. All the rest would do the Zionist thing and move to the state of Israel.
Still, it's an idea for a future American mediator to keep in her arsenal. And just playing out the scenario now, in theory, shows that the argument in Netanyahu's video is not worth buying.
Source : http://prospect.org/article/so-let-settlers-stay-they-wont