The Baseless Charge that Israel Is an Apartheid State, Again

[Mosby]

The baseless accusations that Israel has adopted an apartheid system similar to South Africa’s pre-1994 racial doctrine, just won’t go away.

Recently, Ilan Baruch and Dr. Alon Liel, two former Israeli diplomats who served as Israel’s envoys in South Africa, have written in the South African internet periodical “Daily Maverick”, that “Israel took inspiration from apartheid regimes.”

In doing so, Baruch and Liel chose to ignore the legal and historical facts which contradict this inflammatory and misguided accusation, as well as the professional judgements of some of the leading experts in the field of human rights law.

For example, ten years ago, Justice Richard J. Goldstone, who served on South Africa’s Constitutional Court, wrote very plainly in the New York Times on October 31, 2011, that descriptions of Israel as an apartheid state are “unfair and inaccurate slander.”

Goldstone himself was not known to be on Israel’s corner. He headed a UN fact finding mission on the Gaza Conflict in 2008-9, which tried to argue that Israel had deliberately killed civilians in that war. Goldstone eventually retracted the principal conclusions of his own report.

https://jcpa.org/article/the-baseless-charge-that-israel-is-an-apartheid-state-again/

[niyad]

1. What should it be called?

[JohnSJ]

2. One of the few democracies in the Middle East

[Mosby]

3. A liberal democracy?

Everyone in Israel has the same rights, the issue I suppose is the West Bank and Gaza. Those areas are not part of Israel, so whatever one thinks of the arrangements between Israel and the Palestinians (like the Oslo accords) thats still not Apartheid.

[wellst0nev0ter]

9. But the West Bank and Gaza aren't sovereign states

So what are they? Part of Israel or nah?

[Israeli]

16. Looks like you are not getting an answer

so I hope its okay I answer you .

IMHO its a big " nah "

See : https://peacenow.org.il/en

And : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

[Mosby]

21. They are disputed territories of no country.

The idea was that Israel and the Palestinians would work things out with negotiations and then Palestine would be established. That hasn't happened.

If the Arab leaders had accepted the partition plan in 1947 there would be a country of Palestine. But they rejected the idea and engaged in a war of genocide against the Jews/Zionists instead.

They tried and failed in 1967 and 1973 to destroy Israel.

Violence is never the answer, it's a dark path that will only hurt the Palestinian cause such as it is.

[wellst0nev0ter]

23. Let's not get distracted by a historical debate

Israel struck first in the 1967 war, which was willfully expansionist, and the threat of annihilation was a myth

https://carnegiecouncil-media.storage.googleapis.com/files/v16_i009_a009.pdf

Gaza and the West Bank are essentially bantustans administered by Israel, or else they would have been able to get their covid vaccines they acquired in a timely fashion.

[sabbat hunter]

24. Israel was being threatened in 1967

when it pre-emptively struck at Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Egypt closed the straits of Tiran to Israeli vessels, which is enough to go to war with them for interfering with their shipping. A week before Egypt closed the straits, it signed a defense agreement with Jordan. Once Israel struck at Egypt for closing the straits, Jordan declared war on Israel, as per the agreement. Egypt lied to Jordan and said it repelled the Israeli air strike, but in reality the strike devastated the Egyptian air force. A few days before the war began, King Hussein of Jordan gave command of his armies to Egyptian generals.
Based on those same false reports from Egypt, Syria started an artillery assault on Israel. Israel then struck back.

The war was all started because of Nassar provoking Israel.

The Palestinians deserve a state, with most of the WB, with the exception of the Old City, and Gaza as the lands for it.

But the blame is not solely on Israel. The surrounding Arab countries did zero between 48 and 67 to set up a Palestine. Jordan even annexed the WB.

[wellst0nev0ter]

25. Nasser wanted to adjudicate the Strait of Tiran dispute at the International Court of Justice

Israel chose pre-emptive violence.

[sabbat hunter]

26. Yeah adjudicate it at the

ICOJ, all the while on the ground Israeli shipping is halted. LOL
Nassar wanted war.

Nassar tossed out the UN peacekeepers.

He violated international law by closing the Straits, which is a casus belli.
He wanted war, because he thought that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria would beat Israel.

Why do you think he signed a defense agreement with Jordan only days before? Why do you think he insisted that Jordanian forces be put under Egyptian generals.

[wellst0nev0ter]

27. If someone offers to resolve a dispute in international court

Then it's not a casus belli, it's not a justification for war under any reasonable understanding since it is not an armed attack.

Nobody goes to war over these kinds of disputes, or else Iran would be well within its right to attack the U.S. for the trade sanctions.

Under article 51 of the U.N. charter, you are only allowed to launch a pre-emptive attack if there is an attack against you.

In any case, the strait was not a significant waterway for Israel, and ships could be easily be rerouted around the Sinai, just like they were during the first Gulf War, so Tiran is a weak excuse to attack.

[sabbat hunter]

28. The moment

he closed the straits, there was casus belli. If he wanted to bring it to the international court, he should have done so WITHOUT closing the straits.

Re-routed around the Sinai, means going all the way around Africa. That is not easy.

Closing the straits was an act of war.

How can there be a pre-emptive attack, if you are already attacked?

[wellst0nev0ter]

29. Then any trade sanction is an act of war

Only 5% of Israel's imports came through the strait, and ships could easily be rerouted.

Only 117 Israeli-flagged ships arrived at the port of Eilat over ten years: when the U.S. asked for shipping data, Israel initially declared the data classified because it was so damaging to their argument that the Straits were vitally important. UN officials report that no Israeli-flagged ship had gone through the Straits in nearly two years.


Nasser offered to resolve the conflict in peace, but Israel deliberately chose war.

[sabbat hunter]

30. Trade sanctions are covered

under the WTO.

Nasser wanted war, and he got it. He just thought that Israel would go thru the usual route in the Sinai, which would have been repulsed by his fortifications. They went around them.

If Nasser wanted peace, he would not have made the defensive agreement with Jordan, which put Jordanian forces under his control.

If you REALLY think that Nasser wanted this settled peacefully then you are not worth debating over this.

[LifeLongDemocratic]

4. It has always been fashionable

Everyone loves to hate the Jews. It has been going on for 6000 years. They would rather support the US hating Palestinians than the Israelis who are the US's strongest ally. The Israelis have been under constant attack by the Palestinians and other Arabs since 1948.

[Eko]

5. Its a little more complicated than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931949_Palestine_war
"The war culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel by the Jews, and saw a complete demographic transformation of the territory the Jews occupied, with the displacement of around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs and the destruction of most of their urban areas.[14] Many Palestinian Arabs ended up stateless, displaced either to the Palestinian territories captured by Egypt and Jordan or to the surrounding Arab states; many of them, as well as their descendants, remain stateless and in refugee camps."

Honestly the whole thing is messed up. For me I can support Israel as our ally and as a Democratic country but still be critical of the things they do that I dont agree with. Much as I can our country and its horrible transgressions. There is a lot of history there that not many people know so its always helpful to do some research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

[TomSlick]

6. Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism.

Israel is a complicated friend. Admittedly, Israel is in a dangerous neighborhood but given the amount of US aid going to Israel, US citizens must be free to discuss Israel's treatment of Palestinians under its control and how US supplied weapons are used against Israel's neighbors.

[Israeli]

7. Dore Gold !!!

Ok Mosby thats his opinion .

Only fair Ilan Baruch and Alon Liel have their opinions heard to dont you think ?

Here you go : https://www.groundup.org.za/article/israeli-ambassadors-compare-israel-south-africa/

This week, we mark the fifty-fifth year since the occupation of the West Bank began. It is clearer than ever that the occupation is not temporary, and there is not the political will in the Israeli government to bring about its end. Human Rights Watch recently concluded that Israel has crossed a threshold and its actions in the occupied territories now meet the legal definition of the crime of apartheid under international law. Israel is the sole sovereign power that operates in this land, and it systematically discriminates on the basis of nationality and ethnicity. Such a reality is, as we saw ourselves, apartheid. It is time for the world to recognize that what we saw in South Africa decades ago is happening in the occupied Palestinian territories too. And just as the world joined the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, it is time for the world to take decisive diplomatic action in our case as well and work towards building a future of equality, dignity, and security for Palestinians and Israelis alike.

[Mosby]

8. Just curious, maybe I forgot

But your in favor of a one state solution?

You think that 12.5 million Palestinian Arabs should be given citizenship in Israel, who have a population of 9 million?

Where do you suppose they will live?

[Israeli]

11. No I am not

I still believe in a two State solution as does Meretz and Avoda and Gush Shalom and Peace Now .
Most politicians today just give it lip service tho .
As the years pass it's getting more and more unlikely to happen.
What we are against is the occupation and the settler movement .who consider that the West Bank is sovereign Israeli territory given to them by God .

[Mosby]

13. Thx for the clarification. nt

[wellst0nev0ter]

10. Dore Gold is essentially a rightwing Republican

Here he is at CPAC

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/gold-to-cpac-help-us-defeat-fake-history-582121

[Israeli]

12. He is a right wing Israeli

Ilan and Alon are left wing Israelis

[Mosby]

14. Rw Israelis are nothing like republicans

Israelis differ on their approach to the Palestinian issue.

They all support extensive social programs, pluralism, etc.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. So why quote rightwingers at all?

[Israeli]

17. Why indeed

??????????????????

[Mosby]

18. Because he's not right wing by American standards

In the US he'd probably be a middle of the road Democrat.

[Israeli]

19. Really ??

Your right wingers must be absolutely terrifying then .

So if he is a middle of the road Democrat where would you place our centralists like Lapid and Gantz
by American standards ???

Beginning to understand why you consider me to be the Israeli far left

[Israeli]

20. Thx for the clarification.

[Mosby]

22. Our RW is crazy.

Lapid reminds me a little of Jon Ossoff.

Gantz maybe John Glenn.