Israel military says 2 civilians killed for every Hamas militant is a 'tremendously positive' ratio given combat challen

[Eugene]

Source: CNN

Israel military says 2 civilians killed for every Hamas militant is a ‘tremendously positive’ ratio given combat challenges

By Mitchell McCluskey, CNN
4 minute read
Updated 7:40 AM EST, Tue December 5, 2023

(CNN) — Israel believes that it has killed two Palestinian civilians for every Hamas militant in its intense campaign to eliminate the armed group from the Gaza Strip, a ratio an IDF spokesperson described to CNN Monday as “tremendously positive.”

The AFP news agency first reported the Israeli assessment on Monday, citing a briefing for foreign media by senior Israeli military officials.

Asked by CNN’s Erin Burnett about the details that emerged in the briefing, IDF spokesperson Jonathan Conricus said: “I can confirm the report.” Conricus cited the challenges of fighting in a densely populated area.

According to figures compiled by the Hamas-controlled health ministry in Gaza, almost 16,000 people have died since October 7. The ministry’s figures don’t distinguish between combatants and civilians. Conricus’ statement implies that more than 10,000 civilians have died in the conflict.

-snip-

Read more: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html

[Think. Again.]

1. I just don't have any words to use...

....when ANY civilian deaths are presented as "tremendously positive".

[dutch777]

5. Yeah, some things you just can't spin but I think both Israel and Hamas take turns trying. Just so sad!

The real statistics in this will probably never be known. And I would suspect Hamas fighters merge in with refugees as it suits them to slip away so they can fight another day. There is no winning this...for either side.

[fly2man]

17. Any?

Let's say the surgeon general reports tomorrow that only 1 person was killed by cancer in the past year. You wouldn't call that tremendously positive?

[Lonestarblue]

2. So if Israel says that there are half a million Hamas fighters in Gaza, that gives them the right to kill

a million innocent Palestinians. This is disgusting, and I suspect the true number is closer to a few hundred Hamas fighters killed among the 15,000+ civilians killed.

Israel has always pursued a policy of disproportionate force, and it is doing so in Gaza with the aim of destroying the whole economy so that no one can live there.

“Despite massive Israeli attacks backed by a near-unlimited supply of bombs and missiles and intelligence support from the United States, Hamas continues to fire rockets. Moreover, it retains a substantial paramilitary ability with 18 of the original 24 active paramilitary battalions intact, including all 10 in southern Gaza.

. . .

The doctrine [of disproportionate force] has been used in Gaza during the four previous wars since 2008, especially the 2014 war. In those four wars, the IDF killed about 5,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians, for the loss of 350 of their own soldiers and about 30 civilians. In the 2014 war, Gaza’s main power station was damaged in an IDF attack and half of Gaza’s then population of 1.8 million people were affected by water shortages, hundreds of thousands lacked power and raw sewage flooded on to streets.

Even earlier, after the 2008-9 war in Gaza, the UN published a fact-finding report that concluded that the Israeli strategy had been “designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population”.”


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/israel-disproportionate-force-tactic-infrastructure-economy-civilian-casualties

[fly2man]

20. misunderstanding what he saying

I never heard Israel say there are 500,000 terrorists. If there were that many, there would be more than 15,000 dead.

I don't think you are understanding what the colonial is saying.

He says 5,000 terrorists and 10,000 civilians died. This is a 1:2 ratio. He says that is a better ratio than in other legal wars.

Let's assume in the typical urban war the ratio is 1:10. To get to 5,000 terrorists with that ratio, you need to kill 50,000 civilians.

So his point is that it is deceptive to characterize Israel as having killed 10,000 civilians. Another way to look at it is Israel saved 40,000 civilians by taking a lot of chances that got Israeli soldiers killed.

[Beastly Boy]

4. This is an incredibly tone deaf public statement, but it reflects the realities of war.

For reference, here's an account of military vs civilian casualties in WW2:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#/media/File:World_War_II_Casualties.svg

[Eugene]

6. World War II was the extreme that led to changes in the laws of war.

Civilian populations were targeted intentionally, as the perpetrators themselves call that "terror."
That is now a war crime. A war that claims far more civilians than combatants is not an acceptable standard.

[Beastly Boy]

9. I doubt very much that you will find more favorable statistics anywhere in the world

post WW2, after all the changes in the laws of war.

But you are welcome to try and back up your suppositions with statistics.

[fly2man]

18. burden of proof

I don't see why the burden of proof should be on any particular side. If someone wants to say the Israeli ratio is bad, he needs to cite an urban war that had a different ratio.

[Beastly Boy]

22. I suspect that there were no significant changes in the ratio of military vs civilian casualty ratios

since the new rules of war took effect post WW2. I didn't propose that there were. The burden of proof is on the one who proposed this to be the case in the first place.

I am just questioning the accuracy of this proposition since it was made without any data to back it up.

And I also doubt very much that you will find more favorable statistics anywhere in the world post WW2. You are welcome to try to dispel my doubts, but you are not obligated to do so.

[fly2man]

24. burden of proof

A reporter asked a spokesman about the 2:1 ratio. His response was that the 2:1 is great, a badge of honor. There was no possibility for him to have read out statistics from other wars, on the spot. His answer was fair play.

Now, if someone criticizes the spokesman and says 2:1 is a bad ratio, he bears the burden of proof. He can't just say "but the spokesman didn't have on hand data from other wars."

[madaboutharry]

7. It was a tone deaf comment that recklessly failed to acknowledge the tragedy of civilian deaths.

Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus is usually more self-disciplined than to make a reckless comment like this. The media in Israel, this morning, is discussing the rock and hard place Hamas has put Israel between. No one is seeing the deaths of civilians as anything other than tragic. This is an ugly and bitter war, started by Hamas, which has intentionally placed itself within the civilian population and cruelly sees the high death toll as a means of turning the world even further against Israel. That doesn't not make the deaths of civilians any less regrettable and tragic. Fighting a war in an urban landscape is always a nightmare. The world is demanding another way of fighting this war, but no one has said how. This war can end tomorrow if Hamas releases the 137 hostages it is holding and surrenders to end a war that at the end of the day they are destined to lose.
As for accusing Israel of committing war crimes, that doesn't hold up to internationally accepted definitions of war crimes. Tragic consequences of war does not equal a war crime. To see what a war crime actually is one only needs to look to the actions of Hamas.

[WhiteTara]

8. that means they eliminated 7500 Hamas.

I don't think so.

[Big Blue Marble]

10. He forgot to mention that nearly half of the dead are children.

or the thousands of kids who lost their parents and oh, their arms or legs.

[Lithos]

13. Children

I wish the stat had better definition.

Hamas has a history of recruiting teenagers - technically children (under 18), but still able to serve as cannon fodder. Hamas also likes to position near civilians.

And no, not an excuse - the child-soldiers are going to always be a part of the death toll, sad. But, Israel has had years to come up with more targeted systems - Hamas' deployment strategy is extremely well known. For example: Ukraine has shown extreme effectiveness with using drones in highly targeted attacks. Israel should be at least on par with this. If I were being coarse - I would say that serving as a boot squad in the West Bank has degraded the IDF's out of the box thinking.

[Big Blue Marble]

14. For god's sake, give it up.

i have seen the children dying in this war. They are not
teenagers fighting in the streets for Hamas. I have
no doubt that Hamas would use teenagers in a different
type of war, but not this one.

These children are small. I have seen children crushed
under buildings with their body parts strewn on the ground.
I have seen the two year olds ripped apart by 2000 bunker
bombs. Their arms and legs thrown asunder. When a million
children live in a penned in area with no place to go, many
will die. Others are dying more slowly from dysentery and
starvation. As the UN said this is an apocalyptic hell on earth
with no place to hide.

[Lithos]

16. Not disagreeing with you

God no, not disagreeing.

But to show you the hell of this war:

I have no doubt that Hamas would use teenagers in a different type of war, but not this one.

This is that war. Why would they change now given it's been their strategy all along. Hamas historically has long used their civilians as "shields" in a very calculated manner. Given most of the population are children, then children will bear the brunt of this callous decision. Any group which casually trains its fighters to say "drop your pants" in another language really do not care about anything but specific outcomes.

BUT...

Israel is keen to rush ahead in this challenge and trap Hamas has set - no matter what their PR people are stating. They are fighting the war Hamas planned from the beginning.

And in so doing the tactics they are using are still thud and blunder in nature as Hamas expected. My complaint is they knew the nature of the next war in Gaza was going to be exactly what is going on and they did did nothing mostly because it was noise to Netanyahu's desired outcomes. My snark was the IDF became the "boot" squad of the West Bank settler program and did not focus on what was likely the next war which required very precise tools and tactics to handle Hamas' indiscriminate use of civilians. Or TL;DR - the politicized use of the IDF in the West Bank destroyed the "professionalism" of the IDF. Israel is much more in danger now than in 1973 because of Netanyahu's strategy. I am hoping the Israeli's understand this sooner than later and come to their senses and bring in a government which is more pragmatic and less ideology based.

This is factually a disaster for civilians - but I can not blame just one side for this - it takes two to play here and neither truly care about the civilians.

On Edit:

Hamas wants to destroy Israel - they do not care if they destroy Gaza in the process. Similarly, Netanyahu wants to destroy the Palestinians in the vague hope it leads to a greater Israel - he does not care what that does to Israel

[Aussie105]

11. Telling the world you are proud of killing civilians

without saying so.

Yep.

Make up a number, tell the world Israel is killing the Bad Guys and the thousands of innocent children and adults is just collateral damage.

So sad. Too bad . . . but the rest of the world can see what you are doing.

[The Mouth]

12. As long as there is one member of Hamas, or any of their sympathizers, left alive

we haven't done enough.

[Big Blue Marble]

15. So you have no limit for civilian deaths?

No limits for children or woman?

[fly2man]

19. the law

The law is proportionality. It is a vague standard.

I'm sure killing 10,000 civilians to kill one terrorist is disproportionate.

But killing 10,000 civilians to kill 5,000 terrorists is, according to the spokesman, the best ever done in urban warfare. If this is true, then everything was proportionate.

The only way to claim the spokesman is wrong is to cite a benchmark, other wars where the ratio was better.

It is a bad argument to say even one civilian death is too many, even to kill a million terrorists.

[patphil]

23. I think that statistic is grossly inflated.

Almost 50% of the people in Gaza are children.
Add to that the women and elderly killed, and you are already well over 50%, and that doesn't include adult males who aren't part of Hamas.
Perhaps Israel is considering any dead adult males as being Hamas fighters. Add children in their mid to late teens and maybe you could get a 50% number.