Doctors accuse Israeli troops of desecrating bodies and shooting civilians at hospital Israel says was Hamas 'command ce

[TeamProg]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/23/middleeast/kamal-adwan-hospital-gaza-israel-abuse-allegations-intl-cmd/index.html

Doctors accuse Israeli troops of desecrating bodies and shooting civilians at hospital Israel says was Hamas ‘command center’

Jerusalem
CNN
—
Israeli soldiers raiding a hospital in northern Gaza desecrated the bodies of dead patients with bulldozers, let a military dog maul a man in a wheelchair, and shot multiple doctors even after vetting them for terror links, according to allegations by staff and patients.

“The soldiers dug up the graves this morning and dragged the bodies with bulldozers, then crushed the bodies with the bulldozers,” said the hospital’s head of pediatric services, Hossam Abu Safiya, in a phone interview on Saturday. “I have never seen such a thing before.”

——————————————

[lapucelle]

1. "Truth or Fake: This video does not show Israel bulldozing Palestinians at Gaza's Kamal Adwan Hospital"

According to local journalists in Gaza, Israeli forces bulldozed displaced Palestinians during their raid at the Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza. Some users are sharing a viral video that they claim shows proof of this atrocity by the Israeli army, even though there is still no concrete evidence of it. We tell you more in this edition of Truth or Fake.

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231219-this-video-does-not-show-israel-bulldozing-palestinians-at-kamal-adwan-hospital-in-gaza

[TeamProg]

5. We'll find out if CNN retracts it or the U.N. brings this report up at a later date. Thank you for

the hit!

[lapucelle]

6. What do you expect CNN to retract? The report is that "X accuses Israel of Y".

CNN is not confirming the truth of the accusations in the report you linked.

[TeamProg]

8. If it was believed to be bogus, CNN would NOT have published the story. nt

[lapucelle]

10. "The story" is that someone made accusations.

Doctors accuse Israeli troops of desecrating bodies and shooting civilians at hospital Israel says was Hamas ‘command center’

Last week, they were making these accusations.:

"Truth or Fake: This video does not show Israel bulldozing Palestinians at Gaza's Kamal Adwan Hospital"

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231219-this-video-does-not-show-israel-bulldozing-palestinians-at-kamal-adwan-hospital-in-gaza

[Beastly Boy]

3. Question: How many of these doctors were ranked hamas officers and/or operatives?

According to someone who ought to know, 16.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778679

Second question: how many of the remaining doctors were paid employees of the Hamas government?

I would say, all of them.

[TeamProg]

4. They were vetted by soldiers and found not to be Hamas - THEN SHOT! as per CNN. nt

[lapucelle]

7. That's not what the CNN report says. The CNN report says that it is an allegation. N/T

[TeamProg]

9. CNN also reviewed video evidence for some of the claims.

CNN spoke to two senior medical staff, another doctor and a patient at the hospital, who provided corroborating testimonies of what happened. CNN also reviewed video evidence for some of the claims.

They paint a disturbing picture of how the IDF carried out the operation, as doctors were interrogated for their connections to Hamas and staff struggled to treat patients trapped inside.

The IDF says that Hamas hides terrorist infrastructure in and around civilian institutions in Gaza, such as hospitals, and that targeting them is essential as it works to eliminate Hamas from the Gaza Strip. But its operations are contentious, with humanitarian organizations saying that medical facilities in Gaza are rendered unable to provide basic services.

[lapucelle]

12. CNN reviewed the video, but did not confirm the claim afterwards.

The most CNN would say is that the video "paints a disturbing picture".

[TeamProg]

14. No solid denial from the IDF - only that "Hamas has used hospitals" for cover.

[lapucelle]

16. I don't think there are enough hours in the day to refute every claim the Hamas Health Ministry makes. N/T

[AloeVera]

18. Same goes for the IDF, sorry.

[lapucelle]

22. There's a distinction between what Hamas says and what the IDF says.

[AloeVera]

30. Yes. They lie about different things.

Sometimes each even tells the truth methinks.

[lapucelle]

32. "Sometimes Hamas tells the truth methinks".

Looking forward to someone's future locution:

It meseemed at the time that Hamas was telling the truth because methought that terrorist butchers could be trusted".

[AloeVera]

34. Well 'ya got me there.

Methinks also too that truth is truth no matter who says it.

[lapucelle]

35. What truths have Hamas said?

[TeamProg]

20. You mean, not enough time and excuses to cover up / deny all of the atrocities, right?

It might take years, but the truth is going to come out. IDF soldiers will likely suffer PTSD and a lot of mental illness in the years to come due their actions - just as U.S. soldiers did after VietNam and the Gulf War.

[lapucelle]

24. What are you talking about?

[David__77]

28. Indeed

[lapucelle]

29. Do you think that the Hamas terrorists who engaged in brutal rape and hands-on butchery will also suffer PTSD?

How about the medical personal who hid terrorists and hostages?

What about the UNRWA teacher who held a child hostage in his attic for 50 days? Will he also suffer from PTSD in the future?

What about the UNRWA teacher's own children who witnessed their father holding a kidnapped child prisoner? Will they suffer from PTSD?

Link to tweet

[David__77]

31. There will a lot of consequences of this criminal war.

[AloeVera]

21. A picture is worth a thousand words?

Videos and images he shared with CNN show decomposing human remains scattered across the hospital grounds.

Very disturbing indeed.

[lapucelle]

23. ...

[AloeVera]

37. So...

Some smartass on X decides to post a10-year old video from Egypt and claims it shows Israel bulldozing live patients to death.

Ergo', the eyewitness testimony of medical staff who claim that bulldozers dug up dead bodies - is automatically and conveniently fake.

Got it.

[lapucelle]

38. "Eyewitness testimony of medical staff"...

... at a hospital that director of Kamal Adwan hospital Dr. Hamas Brigadier General Ahmed Al Kahlot says was a Hamas ‘command center’.

Sorry, but claims are not "testimony" any more than reporting that claims were made is confirmation that those claims are true.

[AloeVera]

39. Good catch!

Really important too.

But do you agree that the video on X is not proof that the medical staff/Hamas operatives are lying about what they witnessed?

Of course if you believe everyone at the hospital was Hamas, then you won't believe anything any of them have to say so your conscience is clear.

About Dr/General al-Kahlot, there is one dead man walking, either way. He must know that so I imagine he made his choice to take his chances under what must have been very "difficult" circumstances. Courtesy of Shin Bet.

His last military training, btw, was in 2010, the year he says he joined. Seems a little odd, but then who knows how Hamas runs their military?

I prefer the smilie version for next time.

[TeamProg]

11. And there is this:: ""For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces""

From the TIMES OF ISRAEL !!! TOTALLY LEGIT MEDIA OUTLET!!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

By Tal Schneider 8 October 2023, 3:58 pm

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
-snip-

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
-snip-


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much, much more at the link, really interesting.

[lapucelle]

13. "Quick...look over here!"

[TeamProg]

15. Too funny. Sorry, that history cannot be erased even though Netanyahu backers keep trying. nt

[AloeVera]

17. Absurd.

What difference does it make who they are paid by? You are implying no doctor or medical staff should be believed in anything because they work in a hospital run by their government. Absurd.

These doctors and nurses have been vetted by the IDF and allowed to remain. Is the IDF not doing the vetting properly?

Regardless, how is any of this acceptable, let alone from the "most moral army in the world?

In the words of a non-Hamas operative CHILD:

A child at the hospital, who was receiving treatment for a broken leg, also recalled dogs entering the hospital and attacking an elderly man. “The Israelis let dogs come and attack us. They tortured us. They were shooting towards us. Nights were horrific, we never had sleep since we came here,” he told CNN. “They let dogs attack an old man; it kept biting him.”

From the actual human beings in the medical profession who are paid by Hamas:

“The man screamed in pain. Children and women cried from the horror of the scene. I couldn’t help anyone. This scene was beyond nightmares,” he said. “One of their soldiers came to take the dog and was laughing at the old man and what the dog did to him.”
....
Abu Safiya also described multiple incidents where he alleges Israeli troops deliberately tormented people they knew were not suspects.

A fellow doctor, Dr. Ayman Rajab, was released by the soldiers after questioning and then shot in the chest as he tried to make his way back to the hospital, Abu Safiya told CNN. He survived the shooting and returned to his displaced family. Another doctor was shot in the leg, and Abu Safiya’s own son was shot in the abdomen, he said. Gaza’s Health Ministry has echoed the allegation, saying at least five detainees were shot by IDF troops after being told to return to the hospital.
.....

Tanteesh, the nurse, recalls begging for water to no avail, she said. Israeli troops were “half a meter away from us and surrounding us in the courtyard. We had no water, our throats were dry and we were thirsty and begging them just for a glass of water from the morning till evening,” she said.

As the article states, to be considered a military target, hospitals would need to have able-bodied combatants and weaponry. Even then, there are legal and ethical constraints in the treatment of civilians.

Were there able-bodied "combatants actively fighting the IDF from the hospital before it was attacked?

Article 19 of the Geneva Convention states that “the fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.”

I think the IDF will have a lot to answer for.

[Beastly Boy]

33. "Claims relate to an eight-day operation by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) at the Kamal Adwan Hospital last week"

As of Dec. 19, which was... umm... 4 days ago, only one known case of the hospital's staff being interrogated. And we know the testimony CNN is referring to is more recent than a week ago... how? And we know the doctors giving the testimony were vetted..when? By whom? To what effect? Were they allowed to remain in the hospital? Certainly CNN has no clue, and neither do you! Which doesn't prevent CNN, or yourself, from painting, out of thin air (or worse, the testimony of suspected Hamas operatives), "a disturbing picture of how the IDF carried out the operation, as doctors were interrogated for their connections to Hamas". Disturbing indeed, CNN!

"The IDF says that Hamas hides terrorist infrastructure" .
No, silly! The IDF says they have a Hamas general heading the hospital who confirms Hamas hides terrorist infrastructure! And the Hamas general tells IDF he had 16 Hamas operatives in the hospital, and weapons too, not to mention stating directly that the hospital was being used for military purposes.

Unsurprisingly, at least one of the pants on fire testimonies from a suspected hospital nurse (Tanteesh, the nurse) had already been debunked, with CNN somehow managing to remain oblivious of it. Silly them! The other actual human being doctors quoted in the article are also suspected of being the actual Hamas operatives. And theirs is the testimony CNN is relying on, unconfirmed by anyone else! Silly CNN!

As far as a hospital becoming a military target, CNN is reporting on the testimony that guns belonging to able-bodied "security guards" were present inside the hospital. Even if you doubt the testimony of the Hamas general directly stating it to be the case, this testimony alone confirms that able-bodied non-medical personnel were present at the hospital, making it a military target.

Which brings us to Rule 28 of International Humanitarian Law:

Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule28#:~:text=State%20practice%20establishes%20the%20exception%20under%20customary%20international,Geneva%20Conventions%20and%20in%20both%20Additional%20Protocols.%20
Notwithstanding Article 19 of the 4th Geneva convention, I would venture a wild guess that a hospital run by Hamas general with 16 Hamas operatives on his staff is outside of the hospital's humanitarian function and is harmful to the enemy even if the combatants are not armed, no? Being a military target is not the only way for a hospital to lose its protections. Silly CNN, they can't even look up the shit that any joe shmoe on DU has easy access to!

I think CNN has a lot to answer for.

[AloeVera]

36. You missed some reporting on the 12th, 13th.

The better question would be why would the IDF allow 5 "Hamas operatives" masquerading as doctors and a few others as nurses to stay, while arresting and removing 70 other staff to an undisclosed location on December 12th? Another colossal failure of intelligence? Or maybe they were actually vetted and found to be "innocent".

So here are doctors and nurses vetted by the IDF and a presumably unvetted child, all saying terrible things were done. Why exactly would you not believe them? Serious question.

And if those doctors are suspected of being actual Hamas operatives as you claim (you must have insider knowledge or be more informed as I had not heard that) then why are they still running free at the hospital, talking to CNN and apparently endangering IDF soldiers? Though I suspect after the CNN interview they will soon also be at undisclosed locations making "confessions" after a week or so as "guests" of Shin Bet.

Peace.

[Beastly Boy]

40. If you are referring to this CNN reporting on Dec 13,

Al-Kahlot had spoken to CNN less than 24 hours earlier, alleging that Israeli tank shells had hit the hospital’s maternity ward on Monday. The strike killed two women and left two more so badly wounded their legs required amputation, he said at the time.

CNN was unable to reach Dr. Al-Kahlot on Tuesday.

all I have to say is Thank you! And Duh! The CNN report establishes that as of Dec 12, the confessed Hamas general was not yet in custody. In the same CNN article, Dr. Abu Safia reported "heaving bombing on Tuesday (Dec 12) followed by the arrival of Israeli troops". If he and CNN are to be believed, no vetting could have possibly occurred before Dec 13.

The article in the OP rehashes virtually all the allegations from Dec 13, made by the UNVETTED personnel of the hospital, and the presumably unvetted child. Nothing that occurred after that date. We now know that 16 of the personnel in the hospital were Hamas operatives, and at least one of them lied her ass off (https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231219-this-video-does-not-show-israel-bulldozing-palestinians-at-kamal-adwan-hospital-in-gaza).

So you have no faintest idea how many of the "doctors" whose testimony appeared in any of the CNN articles were vetted, or when, or whether they were vetted at all. What you know for sure is that none of them were vetted at the time they gave theor testimonies.

So let's all hold our hands together and cry "war crimes"! Because anything that happens in the Gaza hospitals has nothing to do with Hamas and Israel's fault is not to be questioned under any circumstances... Oh, and because a dog biting a person in the hospital, verified or not, is defined as a war crime by the International Criminal Court.

[lapucelle]

25. Because Abu-Safia is such a reliable witness and medical staff have nothing to do with Hamas

Gaza healthcare workers ‘taken’ by Israeli forces, says doctor, amid ‘horrendous conditions’ at hospitals

More than 70 medical staff were “arrested and taken to an unknown area,” according to Abu-Safia, including hospital director, Hamas Brigadier General Dr. Ahmed Al-Kahlot. His claim was echoed in a statement by Gaza’s Hamas-controlled Health Ministry.

Al-Kahlot had spoken to CNN less than 24 hours earlier, alleging that Israeli tank shells had hit the hospital’s maternity ward on Monday. The strike killed two women and left two more so badly wounded their legs required amputation, he said at the time.

CNN was unable to reach Dr. Al-Kahlot on Tuesday.

Asked about the arrests, the Israel Defense Forces said that it continues “to act against Hamas strongholds in the north of Gaza, among them the area of Beit Lahia.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/middleeast/gaza-kamal-adwan-hospital-doctors-idf-intl/index.html

Hamas uses hospitals for terror purposes, Gaza hospital director admits

The director of the Kamal Adwan Hospital Kahlot said he joined Hamas in 2010 at the equivalent rank of a brigadier general.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778679

[TeamProg]

19. A (bulldozer) crushed car on top of rubble outside Kamal Adwan Hospital.

?q=w_1110,c_fill/f_webp

Fadi Alwhidifa/Reuters

[lapucelle]

26. Maybe the headline should actually read: "Doctors accuse Israeli troops of bulldozing a car".

[TeamProg]

27. Thank you again!