Creative Speculation
Related: About this forumI support an alternative conspiracy theory.
as opposed to the official conspiracy theory promoted by the government and others.
zappaman
(20,617 posts)science and the facts?
yeah, crazy stuff!
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)You and those of the anti-truth brigade here. Not my problem you can't get it. And we know you won't/can't try to argue the scientific evidence.
Logical
(22,457 posts)hack89
(39,179 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)straight from the horse's mouth eh. you've been doing it long as I been a member here.
hack89
(39,179 posts)I very seldom post here anymore . Considering there has been no new "evidence" in a very long time this place is dead except for you.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)if I didn't use my brain & think about it. Sure hack, I'm all there is to the truth movement now!
hack89
(39,179 posts)In the real world it is just a tiny fringe group with no visibility or influence.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)#1:
False.
9/11 Truth: Poll shows Canadian Citizens disbelieve Official 9/11 Story
Similar to our 2013 poll, almost three times as many people suspect controlled demolition rather than fires after viewing video footage of WTC 7s destruction. More than half 52% are either sure or suspect it was a controlled demolition, while only 18% are sure or suspect destruction by fire.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/911-truth-poll-shows-canadian-citizens-disbelieve-official-911-story/5423901
A poll taken by WorldPublicOpinion.org, a collaborative project of research centers in various countries managed by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, College Park, polled 16,063 people in 17 nations outside of the United States during the summer of 2008. They found that majorities in only 9 of the 17 countries believe al-Qaeda carried out the attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_conspiracy_theories
Poll: More Americans Believe World Trade Center 7 Was Demolished On 9/11 than Believe the Governments Explanation
Posted on September 11, 2013
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/09/poll-more-americans-believe-world-trade-center-7-was-demolished-on-911-than-believe-the-governments-explanation.html
New Poll Finds Most Americans Open to Alternative 9/11 Theories
http://rethink911.org/news/new-poll-finds-most-americans-open-to-alternative-911-theories/
2007 Zogby poll: 42% of Democrats are either Truthers or Quasi-Truthers
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=9747
#2:
False. Anyone that looks at the index page can see that.
Reminder from the Creative Speculation (Group) index page:
This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group.
Do you think your postings are conducive to the stated purpose of this group?
AZCat
(8,345 posts)the group's statement of purpose says: "Discuss conspiracy theories and other highly-speculative topics. Free-thinkers and skeptics are both welcome." (emphasis mine)
dougolat
(716 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 24, 2015, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)
especially those who are more skeptical of the criticisms of the hare-brained tales used to lead the US into illegal, disastrous, and profitable wars than the preposterous and unverified tale itself: the "untruthers", one could say. Their diligent tag-team mockery, denial, belittling, obstinence, and defense of the "Official Conspiracy Theory" (hallowed be it's name- though hollowed be it's substance), indicates a disturbing allegiance.
The "Amerithrax" saga? no ceegar.
The war-games recipe? no ceegar.
The explosion evidence? no ceegar.
The structural engineers? no ceegar, (but the "low likelihood" mist from NIST, based on tortured scenarios and not addressing the actual collapse gets an OK, I guess because it's "Official", doncha know?)
The groundbreaking CIT (backed up the analysis from OSS on P4T)? no ceegar.
Kevin Ryan's "Another Nineteen"? nary a whisper of doubt.
The lack of proof of actual hijacker boardings? shrugs.
The disturbing fate of air traffic controllers' tapes? nothing.
The financial skulduggery of the day? "no tie to Al-qaida..."
The financial skulduggery of the following days? nada.
The rewards and promotions handed out to those who spectacularly failed their duties? SOP
The contradiction between supposed Pentagon plane recovered DNA evidence and "burned away" plane debris, even the titanium parts? poo-poo.
There's more, lots more; but the point is :
Yeah, that's Skepticism alright, IN BONDAGE, BLINDERS, & A LEASH!
AZCat
(8,345 posts)I thought those had all retreated to darker corners of the internet. But here you are in all your glory, including a CIT reference. Will wonders never cease?
dougolat
(716 posts)mapping their locations, and asking for confirmation of their statements, and taking into consideration what was actually in their line of sight.! E GADS!
So the plane swung a little wide in it's death-spiral, and didn't line up with the path of damage. WHAT TO DO? WHAT TO DO?
Well, there's always Operation Noble Eagle at Dover Air Base, where DNA IDs were made on 184 of 189 samples supplied; and since 125 Pentagon occupants died, the rest MUST be from the plane , right? There, that ought to settle it. Never mind the lack of proof, trail of custody, and validity of the comparison data (GIGO), once that hits the teleprompter, it's case closed. The seats and luggage and tonnage of plane parts? Just have someone claim to have seen such, no need for photos or actual debris.
And throw in a parking camera photo of smoke cropped to suggest something real.
You don't think the hijacking of the US military for the PNAC declared purpose of world domination deserves less, do you?
AZCat
(8,345 posts)We've discussed the P4T findings here extensively and it's quite obvious they are without merit, just like the remainder of the "no-planes" theories. I'm sorry you weren't a participant in those discussions but I suspect it wouldn't have mattered - you appear to have strong convictions that would not be shaken by contrary arguments or evidence.
dougolat
(716 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:53 AM - Edit history (1)
How quaint.
The BIG plane would make 3 circular holes on two floors but there's only one, suitable for either engine, leaving a lot to be accounted for: "No fit, sherlock!"
As a steady lurker since 2007, I'm aware of your dismissal of the P4T research that doesn't fit the fractured fairy-tale. but I was referring to the posts from OneSliceShort on that site, providing further analysis of the 239 Pentagon witnesses, only 41 of whom actually had physical locations capable of pinning down the north or south of Citgo question; from the helipad flight controller, Sean Boger, who saw the plane coming directly at him from north of Citgo, and ducked under his desk, yet claimed it hit (150 feet to his left, wrong trajectory for the internal damage), to Deb Anlauf in the Sheraton Hotel, who saw the jet close and directly overhead and flying on toward the Pentagon ( cited by some as viewing southward and indicating the south of Citgo flightpath, but incorrectly so).
But we're getting off in the weeds, and my gripe is not with you, rather the tag-team of abusive and vehement "skeptics" who make this group a dungeon. It's like dealing with creationists, or people who know about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and following Resolution, but refuse to acknowledge the criminality therein, maintaining that "all's fair in love and war."
AZCat
(8,345 posts)People like yourself who are convinced of theories like "no planes" or "controlled demolition" don't think that the rest of us understand how the Bush Administration abused the public's trust (even going so far as to engage in illegal or unconstitutional acts) in the period after September 11th to further their goals. This is untrue. Just because I reject your theories as unsupported and illogical doesn't mean I don't condemn the Bush Administration for their lies and obfuscation of their misdeeds.
This place is a dungeon because "truthers" constantly required belief in their pet theories as a litmus test for "legitimate" opposers to the Bush Administration and their successors, not because of the people that pointed out the numerous problems with those theories.
dougolat
(716 posts)it's a lot like acknowledging the nefarious intent of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution but still denying the bad intentions displayed in the precipitating Incident.
We have a clear statement if intent from PNAC on June 3, 1997, followed by "Rebuilding America's Defenses" and "Present Dangers" in 2000, and backed up by 10 official letters and 4 statements, the signers of which were and are in positions to help "make it so", and affirmed by Gen. Wesley Clark in 2003, that there was the intention to "take down" 7 nations in 5 years. One can refer to the chart at www.publiceye.org/pnac.chart/pnac.html
Now, after 9/11, a "Christian" nation might have impressed the world by "forgiving your enemy" and "turning the other cheek" and a nation under the rule of law might have investigated the crime, but what actually happened might best be described as a "war-machine run amok." Let's not forget the complicity of the "owned" media, either, serving neither the public interest nor the cause of truth and honesty.
This "war machine run amok" meme can be seen elsewhere and more currently, such as in Ukraine, where Nuland and Kagan (PNAC) morphed an effort to prosecute a truly corrupt elected leader into a violently divisive coup. This, in former Soviet Union countries, where our promise that NATO would not expand "one inch" has morphed into "every last inch." Cold War manipulation, provocation, and betrayal, more than two decades out of date.
The world faces impending disasters galore and we're busy "killing millions and harming billions to steal trillions" - it's diabolically tragic!
So, we've got the dangerous war-machine that Eisenhower warned us about (they cooked up and approved Northwoods, the Bay of Pigs, and our involvement in Viet Nam on his watch) and a host of bad-actors eager to take the reins, going into the 2000 election. They steal the election, take power, and spend the next half year installing "their" people in crucial positions. They also scuttle Clinton's anti-terrorist efforts and re-schedule multiple recurring war games to all occur simultaneously in early September. Then comes our day of "Shock and Awe" and the Official Conspiracy Theory.
What can I say? There is simply no part of it that does not qualify as the very model of "Unsupported and Illogical", from the supposed Saudi hi-jackers with CIA expedited passports, thru the unproven plane-boarding, and the preposterous take-over scenarios, and the hinkey phone calls (to which Rebekah Roth has recently pointed out yet more failings), etc,etc.
OK, I've got to stop, lest I go on all day and night, steaming with indignation- but honestly how can anyone deny the importance of the war-games? The regular scramble jets and people scattered to the west and Europe, yet no pause in the ordinary lower level training missions in recognition of that unusual circumstance? The radar distractions, insertions, interruptions, and irregularities? The extra, pretend hijackings, some even live flights? The key anti-terrorism personnel off in Monterrey? The fill-in people, unfamiliar with their roles, procedures, and expected contacts? The communication interruptions and confusion ("...or is this real-world?" ? Who the frack can dismiss all that?
Another biggie, the towers' structural failure of the cores: Those fires could have gone on for a decade and the bulk of the structural steel would still have FULL STRENGTH! Partial damage to the top 1.4% (by weight- tower 1) can cause the rest to fail? Really? Two of the strongest buildings ever erected, there's virtually nothing that could be done from the top that could make the lower third or so of those cores to fail like we saw/see, up to and including such over-kill (for the rest of the building) as dropping aircraft carriers on them, so their failure indicates something more, probably causing the lingering hot-spots; and denials of the myriad reports, recordings, and indications of explosions, as well as the wildly inflated estimates of their required loudness, are pointedly obfuscatory and largely merit-less (sorry, team, no ceegar).
Let's skip the rest of the failures of the OCT, for a moment, and consider our eager "world domination gang"; they've got their wished for pearl harbor, wrapped with a bow that says Muslim, what do they do with it? Time to push for war-powers and the Patriot Act (a ready PNAC package, that)and get started on the Middle East disruption. There will be opposition, so that calls for deploying some super-secret, illegal, military anthrax with a crude Muslim label: never mind that the story won't hold water in the long term, it's first impressions that matter here, and you never get a second chance to make a first impression. The war powers authorization that got passed was more sold as a bargaining chip to use in negotiations than a go-ahead for Wild-West vigilantism, but it worked.
So, no, I don't require belief in any pet theory, but those who defend the craziest theory of all, I must assume, are speaking from ignorance, connivance, or blind faith like the creationists, and to ignore all the incriminating indications of intention behind it all is yet more of the same.
Need I remind you of what Karl Rove said?
"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality, and when you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will = we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out....and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do!"
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 18, 2015, 07:54 PM - Edit history (1)
deliberately allowed or advanced an attack that murdered people in order to implement their corrupt goals on 9-11! There is plenty of reason to be suspicious.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)and wants to change the subject to "I think this is the real issue. blah, blah, blah..."
AZCat
(8,345 posts)The P4T group's theory? Yeah, I think we've discussed the claims enough that one more time won't make a difference.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)hack89
(39,179 posts)care to guess how far apart the engines were?
The hole was large enough for the strongest, toughest parts of the plane to pass through with the wings outboard of the engines disintegrating on impact.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)Certainly not the pentagon!
http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/gg48762,1285505011,Penthitista.jpg
hack89
(39,179 posts)Come on wildbill, you know better. Not like we haven't talked about this for years.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)And you've been wrong the entire time! The pics don't lie.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)ah....
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)chewwww! Sorry I'm becoming allergic to bullshit!
snooper2
(30,151 posts)wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)dougolat
(716 posts)ON THAT SUBJECT:
recent release from KnowMoreNews and Adam Green
"The Conspiracy 'Theory' Conspiracy"
www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=PuQTtw_nLoA
2:09:55 A mass of tv clips, Famous quotes, and the rant from "Network", and a little one from "Matrix", marred by some of the standard theatrical music.