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Ghosts, UFOs, ESP, Astrology, Free Energy, Clairvoyant........ (Original Post) Logical Dec 2011 OP
“For those who believe Danchi Dec 2011 #1
Well, not a god believer either, And I disagree with your statement..... Logical Dec 2011 #2
We'll need a better definition for UFOs. greyl Dec 2011 #3
Good point, I just assume UFO means alien controlled vehicles. Logical Dec 2011 #4
True, but that does leave open top-secret vehicles either piloted by humans or controlled remotely. greyl Dec 2011 #5
LOL...good one! Logical Dec 2011 #6
What is a UFO Larry L. Burks Dec 2011 #7
They are similar to Higgs Boson The Straight Story Dec 2011 #8
Excellent response. frogmarch Dec 2011 #9
What does proof mean? Look at astrology. napoleon_in_rags Dec 2011 #10
Hmm....interesting point! But I admit I have trouble thinking that direction. Maybe too logical! Logical Dec 2011 #11
Thanks! Well here's a really simple experiment, anybody curious can do it in two days. napoleon_in_rags Dec 2011 #12
You start off pretty good, for an amateur Remember Me Dec 2011 #13
Is it possible it has endured for centuries because... zappaman Dec 2011 #14
No, that's not possible Remember Me Dec 2011 #15
uh huh zappaman Dec 2011 #16
Yes, of course I can tell what sign you are Remember Me Dec 2011 #20
Predictability, repeatability, etc. Remember Me Dec 2011 #23
Double blind experiments are possible with astrology. Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #24
Oh Remember Me Dec 2011 #26
Gaugelin? zappaman Dec 2011 #27
Does Astrology work in other solar systems? greyl Dec 2011 #17
If other solar systems have sentient beings who Remember Me Dec 2011 #18
Does your own explanation satisfy your curiosity? greyl Dec 2011 #19
LOL -- I don't have any curiosity about other solar systems Remember Me Dec 2011 #21
Can you say a little bit about the forces known to expert astrologers greyl Dec 2011 #22
No, I can't. Perhaps a study of Carl Jung would answer that for you -- ?? nt Remember Me Dec 2011 #25
Perhaps you can direct me to where Jung answered my questions. nt greyl Dec 2011 #28
any system of knowledge that has endured for centuries ... has something to it. napoleon_in_rags Dec 2011 #29
 

Danchi

(61 posts)
1. “For those who believe
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 08:38 AM
Dec 2011

You forgot to add to your listing proof for the existence of God.

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
2. Well, not a god believer either, And I disagree with your statement.....
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 08:42 AM
Dec 2011

I could easily believe in anything is science proved it.

I am sure people thought radio was not possible and called it a lie until they had proof.

If someone could sit down in a controlled environment (James Randi Mode) and "read" all 52 cards in a deck and be able to do it consistently then I would believe that person had esp!

greyl

(22,997 posts)
3. We'll need a better definition for UFOs.
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 09:01 AM
Dec 2011

Since there have definitely been unidentified flying objects, I mean.

greyl

(22,997 posts)
5. True, but that does leave open top-secret vehicles either piloted by humans or controlled remotely.
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 09:38 AM
Dec 2011

Many of these being constructed from knowledge imparted by aliens, of course.

napoleon_in_rags

(3,992 posts)
10. What does proof mean? Look at astrology.
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 04:21 PM
Dec 2011

I used to hang out in a bohemian scene where everybody was in to astrology. We all knew our signs, and we all knew everybody else's. Social patterns and behaviors emerged, people conformed to their signs. An interesting phenomenon I observed was with an outspoken skeptic. Very stubborn about the matter, Capricorn. Everybody treated him as a Capricorn, and over time in response he started developing capricornian traits in response to what was socially expected of him.

So is astrology real? What I can tell you is that in a scene where the majority of people believed in it, it was real, even to the extent of changing the behavior of those who didn't believe in it, due to social expectations. Would it have been real in a scene where nobody believed in it? Less likely.

But does that mean it should dismissed?

Science exceeds in observing phenomena that don't give a damn what you think about them. Jupiter's orbit will not be changed by you questioning it, not will it be changed based on what anybody thinks about it. So if you have a wrong hypothesis about where it will be, Jupiter will show you. But in complex systems all that changes For instance, consider Johnny (pisces) and Layla (scorpio) who guy to the scientist. They tell him that their charts are highly compatible, ask if its likely they are compatible. The scientist says his observations say astrology doesn't exist, so they are no more compatible than anybody. They break up, the scientist nods "another confirmation of my thoery". Now, parallel universe: They go to an astrologer, who tells them they are compatible. The conform to their behavioral patterns, have faith (and fear of getting into something worse) and stay together. The astrologer nods "another confirmation of my theory".

The point is, there are many systems that respond to your expectations of what they are supposed to do, and they are completely undetectable to science, because scientists approach them with an expectation of them working in accordance with their beliefs, which they always do, by virtue of following expectations. All kinds of things could be in this category. A good example might be super advanced aliens who've got our brains tapped, (Probably easily within the capability of a civilization 1000 years beyond us, check out the current neuro-scanning stuff researchers are working on today.) and they only wish to reveal themselves to individuals who are receptive to their existence for whatever reason. Its possible, but the only way to prove it involves 1000 more years of human technological development.

So my point is, we should all be willing to consider the irrational, if only to see what previously unseen doors begin to open to us...

napoleon_in_rags

(3,992 posts)
12. Thanks! Well here's a really simple experiment, anybody curious can do it in two days.
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 06:23 PM
Dec 2011

Day One: Absolutely take control of your mind, convince yourself that everybody loves you, and every thing they do is an expression of that love. Even insults are their attempts to to cover their deeper positive emotions toward you. Interact with as many people as you can.
Day Two: The opposite, convince yourself that everybody hates you and is out to get you. We're talking about deep method acting, you have to feel it so you act accordingly. These ideas need to be held firmly enough to effect your behavior. Interact with a different set of people than before, but as many as you can.

Now observe the general difference in reactions, I predict there will be one.

You could try that same experiment with different assumed notions, but the point is that on a day to day basis we all live in a system which responds to our assumptions about it, and our attempts to see it impartially as a static system (saying "such-and -such doesn't like me" for instance) are incomplete. (actually, such-and-such's feelings about you are liquid and changing in response to how you behave)

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
13. You start off pretty good, for an amateur
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 10:30 PM
Dec 2011

and then veer off into stupid.

I don't mean you're stupid and in fact, neither is your hypothesis. It's just woefully ill-informed. I see you at least trying to understand how astrology could possibly work. But this ain't it. Trust me.

I try to tell people something: any system of knowledge that has endured for centuries or, even better, millennia, definitely has something to it, something real.

Now what that IS takes some exploration and study. Don't expect to even begin to get it until you study it. I've seen many people try to explain it to folks who are basically skeptical, without a single bit of success. If anyone really wants to figure out what's going on with astrology, go study it. For real.

LOL -- it will only take you several YEARS, probably, to do it right, but you'll be able to say with some authority (at last) afterwards whether there's anything to astrology or not.

zappaman

(20,617 posts)
14. Is it possible it has endured for centuries because...
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:24 PM
Dec 2011

there are always suckers or people that WANT to believe that somehow the random day you were born molds your personalities and actions?
Sorry, but I don't need to spend YEARS studying bullshit.
How about you spend a half hour with some scientific reading?
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
15. No, that's not possible
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:47 PM
Dec 2011

Sorry.

I took a look at your "science" out of curiosity -- I can't get past the first real paragraph, which has this in it:

Some of the claims they make are inherently contradictory (some say the moment of birth is important, others say it's the month, etc.)...

Wrong. They are both important. The day too. The place as well. You can pull that apart and call it "contradictory" or you can learn enough about it -- which this author clearly hasn't -- to understand how it works before trying to criticize it.

Not a very good start for a so-called SCIENTIST.


but they all operate under a very broad working assumption: there is some sort of force from the heavens that influences us here on Earth.

Uh, not really. It could be synchronicity. Astrologers don't spend a lot of time trying to figure that out ("that" being why astrology works). They prefer to spend their time with the what -- what the various symbols reveal.

Carl Jung, one of the first psychiatrists and the famous founder of analytical psychology, studied astrology himself and talked about synchronicity -- "acausal connection of two or more psycho-physic phenomena." (You should read the client case that prompted this: http://www.carl-jung.net/synchronicity.html )

Or. here's this more accessible explanation from Wikipedia:

Jung coined the word to describe what he called "temporally coincident occurrences of acausal events." Jung variously described synchronicity as an "acausal connecting principle", "meaningful coincidence" and "acausal parallelism". Jung introduced the concept as early as the 1920s but only gave a full statement of it in 1951 in an Eranos lecture[3] and in 1952, published a paper, Synchronizität als ein Prinzip akausaler Zusammenhänge (Synchronicity — An Acausal Connecting Principle)[4], in a volume with a related study by the physicist (and Nobel laureate) Wolfgang Pauli.[5]

It was a principle that Jung felt gave conclusive evidence for his concepts of archetypes and the collective unconscious,[6] in that it was descriptive of a governing dynamic that underlies the whole of human experience and history—social, emotional, psychological, and spiritual. Concurrent events that first appear to be coincidental but later turn out to be causally related are termed incoincident.

Jung believed that many experiences that are coincidences due to chance in terms of causality suggested the manifestation of parallel events or circumstances in terms of meaning, reflecting this governing dynamic.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

zappaman

(20,617 posts)
16. uh huh
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 11:52 PM
Dec 2011

Just to make it easier on you, here are the main points of this page:

* There is no force, known or unknown, that could possibly affect us here on Earth the way astrologers claim. Known forces weaken too fast, letting one source utterly dominate (the Moon for gravity, the Sun for electromagnetism). An unknown force would allow asteroids and extrasolar planets to totally overwhelm the nearby planets.
* Astrologers tend to rely on our ability to remember hits and forget misses. Even an accurate prediction may be simple chance.
* Study after study has shown that claims and predictions made by astrologers have no merit. They are indistinguishable from chance, which means astrologers cannot claim to have some ability to predict your life's path.
* There is harm, real harm, in astrology. It weakens further people's ability to rationally look at the world, an ability we need now more than ever.

Can you tell what sign I am?

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
20. Yes, of course I can tell what sign you are
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 02:41 PM
Dec 2011

You were born under the sign of: Jerk. -- just kidding. Don't alert, really, it's just a joke.

* There is no force, known or unknown, that could possibly affect us here on Earth the way astrologers claim.

Uh, no. There is no force that YOU know of. There is no force currently understood by our Newtonian scientists. (I suspect quantum scientists are quite a bit closer.)

* Astrologers tend to rely on our ability to remember hits and forget misses. Even an accurate prediction may be simple chance.

Well, that's your interpretation, which I consider as accurate as anything else you've so far said. Astrologers don't even give such a thing a thought -- they don't need to. CHARLATANS and scam artists might, but they're very few and far between among astrologers because the payout just isn't there.

* Study after study has shown that claims and predictions made by astrologers have no merit. They are indistinguishable from chance, which means astrologers cannot claim to have some ability to predict your life's path.

Well, from my perspective, prediction is difficult -- it helps if the astrologer is part psychic and many are. Prediction is difficult because the various parts and pieces can all mean so many different things. I'll explain a little more about that in a minute. First let me dispense with this little bit of nonsense:

* There is harm, real harm, in astrology. It weakens further people's ability to rationally look at the world, an ability we need now more than ever.

And *I* believe we need the transcendent, the subjective, the heart-centered, the soul-centered, the numinous, the mysterious, the unexplained and unexplainable, in short the spiritual more than ever. It is our over-reliance on rationality at the expense of listening to and heeding our hearts and souls that has led us to where we are today. YMMV, of course. And part of that is becausse we are more than our rational minds: we are Spirit having a physical existence. We cut off our connection to Source at our own peril, and that's what a 100% adherence to and reliance on the purely rational will do for you. Rational + Subjective = Whole Brain. They are both needed, even in the strictest scientific settings.

Nor is there any evidence at all that your fear of astrology rotting practitioners' or followers' minds has any merit whatsoever.

See my next post for more on predictability and repeatability.

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
23. Predictability, repeatability, etc.
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 03:44 PM
Dec 2011

Last edited Fri Dec 16, 2011, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Okay -- thought it was this thread, but maybe not, where someone demanded that astrology be able to be proven via repeatable, predictable results.

Hard to do.

Why? For life predictions, I can best answer by giving a few examples.

First, though, let's talk about natal charts -- your personal mandala.

A birth chart is constructed based on the time, date and place of birth, and no 2 people ever share those three things identically, not even twins.

No repeatability possible in such a situation.

Now, there are parts and pieces of any natal chart that are repeatable, but anything in a chart is going to be modified a little or a lot by the other things in that chart, so you have to make allowances for that. Now, those modifications are pretty much knowable if you know astrology, but not definitively enough to pass the rigors of science, I don't believe.

Predicting the course of one's life -- difficult but absolutely not impossible. But impossible to repeat.

Here are some examples of things I've experienced in my life with transits, which are the movement of today's planets across my natal chart:

Once upon a time I was very clever and changed our auto insurance to save us money. I had forgotten about a big ole nasty ticket one of us had gotten a few years prior but our new insurance company reminded me. So we ended up paying MORE than we had been paying. When I later looked at my transits, I saw that Pluto, the planet that rules insurance and a bunch of other things, had been hitting my natal Pluto (in the 8th House which rules insurance and other things), at a 90 degree angle, which is a square and considered challenging. An astrologer might have noted that coming up for me and said: You're going to have some challenges regarding joint finances, maybe insurance, or other similar things, so you'll want to be careful starting anything new, buying or selling securities, or otherwise making any changes to your joint financial situation during the period of ___ to ___ because they're unlikely to work out for you as you hope. "

No repeatability here, though you CAN get plenty of stories of people having problems related to Pluto subjects when Pluto is squaring Pluto, something that happens twice a lifetime if you live a good long time, or just once if not. Just as you can get plenty of stories -- millennia worth -- of people's experiences when this or that or the other happens in their charts. But "anecdotal evidence" to some who love science to the exclusion of everything else is no evidence at all.

Now, please be sure to note well that it was AFTER the fact that I looked at my astrology for the time period. I rarely look at my chart ahead of time, but am more likely to say, "hey, what was THAT all about?" or "what the hell is going on?" and take a look to see if there's anything in my chart and current transits that explains it, and also how long it will last.

Another incident a LOT of years ago: Before I foreswore looking at my chart ahead of time, I had noted that the planet that rules electricity, excitement, the sudden and unexpected, and computers (plus a whole lot more), would be transiting my natal Jupiter, which rules personal improvement and expansion, higher education, and much more. I had no idea what to expect, but Jupiter is a very GOOD planet, so I was looking for something positive. Well, time passed, Uranus approached and nothing happened. I was a little petulant: Well, at least I was expecting a little excitement! Then I had a chance to buy one of the very early Mac SEs and did so. Oh, my. Exciting? That's an understatement. I was head over heels in love, totally obsessed and even started existing on just several hours of sleep a night learning this wondrous machine and getting competent.

Not exactly repeatable.

So there I was trying to master desktop publishing. I was trying and trying and trying for about a week and a half to get something to work out, and just couldn't make it happen no matter what I did. Boy! was I frustrated. You ever try to put a Chinese puzzle or something together and it just won't fit and then suddenly, it just slips into place? That's what happened for me -- one afternoon it just slipped into place, as if there'd never been a problem. I don't remember what it was, I just remember the sense of my mouth dropping open when it did, after all that struggle. What happened astrologically? Well, what happened in my chart that synchronistically reflected what happened in my life is that Saturn, which rules some aspects of computers, changed motion from retrograde (seeming to be going backwards as viewed from earth) to direct (going forward) that very afternoon and that I too was finally able to move forward.

Not very repeatable, but you can find a gazillion similar stories about retrograde planets going direct.

Another: When I first wanted to learn astrology -- back in the very early 1980s, we were getting ready to move. I'd found a correspondence course I wanted to take, but not having an address had to wait until we did. Wellll, one of the things I was able to later see was that my urge to learn astrology was at the same time the planet that rules astrology (Uranus) was approaching my Ascendant, a very potent point in anyone's chart. And I wasn;'t able to sign up for it until the planet made it to my Ascendent, and not before. (Coming within one degree usually activates whatever the transit is going to mean.)

No repeatability there either.

One more: My mother got sick and I went "home" to be with her. She had a brain tumor and I was profoundly happy that I could be with her at that time. I thought I was going to be able to take her home with me, but the day I picked up the airline tickets she lapsed into a coma -- surprising her doctor who thought she had several months left -- and a few days later she died.

Not long after we all got back home after the funeral, we learned that we were going to have to move (husband transferred) -- away from the only place I'd ever felt was home for me, a place I loved with all my heart, and it broke my heart. Bad enough to lose my mother, now I was losing my home.

Later I learned that you often have to take care of someone ill when Saturn, the planet of restriction and loss, moves through your 12th house, and that's exactly what was going on when I was with my dying mother. Saturn crossed my Ascendant (which is the cusp of the first house) when we moved.

None of that is repeatable, although again: people have had similar experiences with all these and the other planets for millennia -- but anecdotal evidence doesn't count. Or at least it doesn't count to the people here. Humans can have built whole systems of knowledge based on their empirical evidence obtained by direct observation over millennia, but if it doesn't include double-bind studies with sugar pills given to a control group, it's not evidence to the people here at DU.

Sorry, there ain't no sugar pills in astrology.


Edited to add something I forgot: I've enjoyed this little exchange, but it's taken more time than I have, and I won't be able to continue it. Sorry.

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
26. Oh
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 08:49 PM
Dec 2011

THIS Gaugelin?

Gauquelin's own conclusions were subject to change throughout the course of his life due to his research over several decades, and in the beginning after his initial studies he was very critical of certain widely accepted beliefs in astrology, particularly the zodiacal signs, which he extensively tested without finding results:

"It is now quite certain that the signs in the sky which presided over our births have no power whatever to decide our fates, to affect our hereditary characteristics, or to play any part, however humble, in the totality of effects, random or otherwise, which form the fabric of our lives and mould our impulses to action." (The Scientific Basis for Astrology, 1970)

Although he always remained highly critical of astrology in general, his attitude towards its existence changed as his studies progressed in the study of the diurnal cycle, which is related to the astrological houses.

"Subsequent results only confirmed and amplified my initial discovery about the physicians. On the whole, it emerged that there was an increasingly solid statistical link between the time of birth of great men and their occupational success. ... Having collected over 20,000 dates of birth of professional celebrities from various European countries and from the United States, I had to draw the unavoidable conclusion that the position of the planets at birth is linked to one's destiny. What a challenge to the rational mind!"[3] (Neo-Astrology, 1991)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Gauquelin

And this one: http://www.astrologycritics.com/cosmic-influences-on-human-behavior.html

As for picking out your own chart, here's what a chart looks like:



and anyone is surprised that no one could pick out theirs? Please.

Who decided that matching charts to the California Personality Index was a good and viable test? I am not myself familiar with the test, are you? What's in it? It probably measures things not easily detected via astrology -- and vice versa!

You know, anyone can design tests and "experiments" that will ensure failure, or just through utter incompetence or utter ignorance (of astrology) design tests and experiments that are sure to fail. Get some astrologers and "scientists" to agree on some tests and then see what happens. In the meantime, what you've dredged up doesn't meet the definition of scientific proof to me:

...evidence which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is generally expected to be empirical and properly documented in accordance with scientific method such as is applicable to the particular field of inquiry. Standards for evidence may vary according to whether the field of inquiry is among the natural sciences or social sciences[citation needed]. Evidence may involve understanding all steps of a process, or one or a few observations, or observation and statistical analysis of many samples without necessarily understanding the mechanism.


If you don't even know the right questions to ask, you aren't going to get the right answers.

Now -- as I said elsewhere, this has been interesting and fun, but too time-consuming. I won't be responding further.
 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
18. If other solar systems have sentient beings who
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 02:27 PM
Dec 2011

developed astrology for their local system, I'm sure it does.

greyl

(22,997 posts)
19. Does your own explanation satisfy your curiosity?
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 02:31 PM
Dec 2011

On what principles would those astrological developments in other solar systems be based?

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
21. LOL -- I don't have any curiosity about other solar systems
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 02:43 PM
Dec 2011

Why should I?

As for as other principles -- who knows? Archetypes are archetypes, but I don't know if they extend to other solar systems and I fer shure doubt they'd extend to other galaxies or universes. But - - shrug -- who knows?

greyl

(22,997 posts)
22. Can you say a little bit about the forces known to expert astrologers
Fri Dec 16, 2011, 02:51 PM
Dec 2011

that they'd be detecting and/or measuring in other solar systems in order to become conscious of any archetypes that might be present?

napoleon_in_rags

(3,992 posts)
29. any system of knowledge that has endured for centuries ... has something to it.
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 02:05 AM
Dec 2011

Greek myths have endured for centuries. But is does that mean Zeus sitting on the mountain directing our fates? Or fairies really are in the woods? Of course there's something to these, but that something is a reflection of the human mind, of ourselves, how we operate.

My basic perception of reality comes from science. In order for me to believe that there is an external reality to astrology, an astrologer has to predict statistical trends in people's fates/behaviors who don't themselves believe in astrology, and the studies have to back it up. Studying it for years will shape my brain to see astrological wonders all around me, but without that predictive component its not part of the external material world.

I hope you don't take my comments as devaluing your study. In my paradigm, you freaking out about that is like somebody saying: "I spent years believing dollar bills had value, and now you're telling me that they're just pieces of paper?" Both are true. They have value, and that's because people believe these pieces of paper have value. Belief is a very powerful thing.

edit: Oh, I read your other post and you might be interested, my chart is all Pisces and Virgo so this is my house: the mystical spiritual as it relates to the analytical thinking of science. Yes, it fits me well, but as a rational thinker, I cannot rule out that my personality was shaped by my time in Bohemia. What I can tell you is that you're lecturing the wrong guy on the need to study occult science!

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