Regarding the 'heaviest defended airspace' claim. Has anyone here ever brought up Matthias Rust?

[RZM]

If you're not familiar with the story, in 1987 Matthias Rust was a 19 year old amateur pilot from West Germany who thought it would be funny to fly without permission into the Soviet Union in his single engine Cessna.

He took off from Finland on the morning of May 28 and told air traffic he was going to Sweden. He then turned off his communications equipment and instead flew into the Soviet Union. He made it all the way to Moscow and landed near Red Square that evening. He was promptly arrested afterwards.

That some practical joker was able to violate Soviet airspace and land in the center of Moscow was quite an embarrassment to the Soviet air defense network and the military at large.

Obviously the Soviet air defense network and communications were lackluster and inferior to those in the US in 2001. But still, given that the Soviets failed to shoot down an intruding aircraft that was creeping towards the capital for hours (they did detect it), is it that surprising that the 9/11 planes, which were filled with civilian passengers BTW, weren't shot down either? This of course doesn't prove anything and it can be debated how applicable it is. Just thought I'd mention it in case it hasn't been mentioned here before.

Here's the wikipedia article on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Rust

[T S Justly]

1. Not applicable - U.S. officials had a Security advisory stating attacks by airliners were imminent..

And had time to prepare contingencies on top of the already vaunted and extremely pricey Air defenses of NORAD.

[Bolo Boffin]

3. Imminent where? n/t

[T S Justly]

6. You're asking the wrong department. (nt)

[Bolo Boffin]

7. You are aware the United States is a rather large place? n/t

[T S Justly]

8. NORAD, Bolo. Or Richard Meyers. They were aiming our guns, then. (nt)

[Bolo Boffin]

9. "Security advisory stating attacks by airliners were imminent" -- your words.

Produce it.

[T S Justly]

10. It is your "imminent where" the Joint Chiefs and NORAD, et al had the duty to know or surmise ...

On 9-11. Why doncha go squeeze one of them? Lol! I don't know everything. Condi might.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Do you even have a source for this belief of a security alert? Link?

Or, as usual, when pressed for source, it turns out to be nothing?

[T S Justly]

12. I don't like to be pressed or squeezed ...

Maybe some other time. Thanks. Lol!

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Well, don't post what you can't back up and you'll not have that problem. n/t

[T S Justly]

15. Get a dog, Bolo. Not only can you order it around ...

You can also kick it. :frownie:

[Bolo Boffin]

16. I would never even think about kicking a dog, T S Justly.

What an awful thing for you to suggest.

[T S Justly]

18. Well, then, I'll kick this dog (nt) (nr)

[BeFree]

21. Tell Bolo this

On August 6 the CIA told bush about the use of aircraft in an attack.

No doubt the info had been well vetted before it made it all the way to the resident.

[Bolo Boffin]

22. Why don't you tell me yourself?

What targets were specifically threatened by aircraft in the Aug 6 PDF? Kindly limit your answer to direct quotes. Here's a link to the transcript:

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-04-10/politics/august6.memo_1_bin-conduct-terrorist-attacks-abu-zubaydah?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

[BeFree]

23. The US was the target

Geez, bolo, haven't you learned anything in all these years?

Do you really think bush is innocent and should just be allowed to walk away totally free? Him and his whole gawd-damned administration?

I mean, what the fuck!! They fucking fucked up and most of us are not going to make one fucking excuse for the fuck-ups.

So what is this shit I am reading? Can't you even creatively speculate about any fucking thing bush et al did?

[Bolo Boffin]

24. Yes, and as I pointed out above, BeFree

The US is a fucking big fucking target.

Please stop the "bushco is innocent" smearing.

[BeFree]

25. I asked you a simple question

And you cry about a smear.

Just answer the fucking question. Is bushco innocent about 9/11 or is it not?

[Bolo Boffin]

26. I refuse to participate in your smear tactics.

I'm looking forward to a better way of relating to each other in this group. Your "bushco innocent" smear isn't a path to that place.

[BeFree]

27. No. bushco is not innocent

It is well known that bushco first ignored the warnings, then sat on their ass as the attacks took place. Then obstructed, as best they could, the investigations.

Well known. No question bushco is guilty. It is just a matter of how guilty they are.

[zappaman]

29. What is Bushco? n/t

[Ace Acme]

30. At least nine PDBs from April to July had titles warning of al Qaeda attacks.

Last edited Tue Dec 17, 2013, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

See Shenon, "The Commission" p. 151

Condi was briefed on 5/30/01 and 7/10/01 by the CIA, issued dire warnings. Cofer Black said "We did everything but pull the trigger to the gun we were holding to her head." http://m.npr.org/news/front/6182002?page=2

Tenet and Blee said they thought 9/11 might have been prevented if Rice had heeded their warnings.

There were warnings from 13 foreign countries, and 4 FBI offices as well.

The warning translated by Behrooz Sarshar in the spring of 2001 came from reports of chatter in Balochistan about attacks on cities. It resulted in an FBI memo "Kamikaze Pilots".

[RZM]

4. The Soviets had all damn day to shoot down Rust

Probably they weren't expecting an attack from a single Cessna, yet they had plenty of time to shoot him out of the sky or at least force him down. But they never did. This only four years after they shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, which had strayed into Soviet airspace way over in the Pacific region and had been filled with passengers, including a US congressman.

[T S Justly]

14. The Conspirators had 31 days to ready a response to ...

Last edited Sat Dec 17, 2011, 08:16 AM - Edit history (1)

a PDB (Presidential Daily Briefing, prepared by the USCIA) delivered to Dumbya and his
henchmen on Aug. 6, 2001. This report had been hidden but when it surfaced provided a
stark contrast to statements made by Richard Meyers and Condi Rice. Here's a link
to the online collection of true facts and wistful fancy called wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike_in_US

That's just a beginners' course and it's merely a frame but is still undetermined to be all
the facts surrounding one of the elements of the cover-up. The full story of 9-11?
Well, that's a riddle surrounded by a mystery wrapped in an enigma and twisted by
loveless and septic destabilizers. Good luck and don't let your emotions get the
better of your good manners. You may request links and, if done politely, I'll do my
best to get them. Hope you have a terra free day. Thank-you.

[Ace Acme]

31. KAL flight 902 was shot down in 1978 over the USSR.

It was a 707, and it landed on a frozen lake. 2 passengers died.

[truedelphi]

2. You are comparing apples to oranges.

First of all, Matthias Rust "invaded" Russian air space.

The planes that hit the Twin Towers were not invading American air space. They were part of it. They were commercial jet that took off from airports inside the USA.

And once the first plane hit the tower, our senior NORAD officials knew of the fact that the two planes had gone off course. FAA Director Jane Garvey made sure that the airlines' lines into the FAA were made open and available to the senior military, starting within minutes of the FAA realizing that the first plane was hijacked (Approx 8:35 Am the morning of Sept 11th.) But some officials assumed the second plane was part of an ongoing "military game" that was set up and was in operation at the time.

When I listened to Nine Eleven Commission testimony, that was presented live on C Span while occurring, the military officials talked about this.

Many of us, including me, do think that the plane that went down in a field in Pennsylvania was targeted by our military. Nothing else explains the way that the plane's total material, including bodies of passengers, was basically evaporated.

[RZM]

5. It is apples and organges, I admit that

I'm not an expert on Soviet military protocols, but I imagine they DID call for shooting down an invading plane. Apparently Soviet fighters spotted Rust, but never got permission to fire. As I mentioned in the post above, they did shoot down a passenger liner in the far east of the country four years before, which caused a major international incident. Given that, it's logical to assume they would shoot down a rinky-dink single engine plane that was headed for Moscow.

Aside from Flight 93, we're probably in agreement. The point I'm making here is that it's possible for rogue planes to be in the air and not be shot down. I doubt the Soviet military was in on some conspiracy to let Rust embarrass them.

[CJCRANE]

17. Your logic doesn't follow...

a jet liner and a single engine Cessna are two entirely different types of aircraft. Even you describe the Cessna as "rinky-dink" which implies that maybe the Russians didn't see it as a threat.

[RZM]

28. That's not how the Soviets usually operated

They weren't likely to just allow a foreign Cessna to fly all over the place and land in the middle of Moscow. It was a failure of the system, which is my point.

That air defense system failed miserably. It's possible for a highly militarized state to allow that to happen. That's my main point.

[truedelphi]

19. I did think it was interesting to reflect on Rust and his attempt to

Make the Russian military look silly. So I am glad you brought it up. Just not sure if it is relevant to Nine Eleven.

One thing I can't recall - did he fly his small plane lower than the necessary heights for radar to pick up on it?

[RZM]

20. I'm not sure, actually

There some reliable links at the wiki article, one of them probably says.

I do know he was detected. At one or more times fighters were in the air and had him in their sights, but they never fired. My impression is that the problem wasn't detection, it was coordination/communications within the Soviet air defense structure about whether or not the craft was hostile, whether or not to shoot, etc.

[Ace Acme]

32. The differences among detection, interception, and shootdown are distinctions

the propagandists like to confuse.

They like to claim "Oh, nobody was going to shoot down an airliner" as if that explained why the airliners were not intercepted. Which it doesn't. In interception you establish communication with the airliner and order it to land.