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littlemissmartypants

(25,542 posts)
Mon Mar 11, 2019, 10:45 PM Mar 2019

A State-by-State List of the Lies Abortion Doctors Are Forced to Tell Women

A State-by-State List of the Lies Abortion Doctors Are Forced to Tell Women

In 26 states, abortion providers are required to carry "informed consent" brochures devised by conservative politicians, who say they're simply trying to help women make a difficult decision. But others are forcing doctors to give inaccurate info.
By Callie Beusman

When she worked at an abortion clinic in South Dakota, Dr. Diane Horvath-Cosper was legally required to tell prospective patients that there was a chance that abortion would increase their risk of breast cancer and suicide.

Immediately afterwards, she'd tell them that neither of those statements had any actual basis in medical science. "What I would say was, 'The state requires me to give you this information. ... snip.

More at the link.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/nz88gx/a-state-by-state-list-of-the-lies-abortion-doctors-are-forced-to-tell-women

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A State-by-State List of the Lies Abortion Doctors Are Forced to Tell Women (Original Post) littlemissmartypants Mar 2019 OP
What I don't understand is why the AMA doesn't stand up to PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #1
Excellent question. First Amendment? nt littlemissmartypants Mar 2019 #2
In what way are you thinking First Amendment? PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #3
The Constitution applies to States as well ... mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #4
The First Amendment specifically states PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #5
Agree, NOT a 1A issue. Disagree on your interpretation of The Law :) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #6
Well, then, why do you suppose no doctors PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #7
I wasn't the one promoting a 1st Amendment argument on this issue :) mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #8

PoindexterOglethorpe

(26,730 posts)
1. What I don't understand is why the AMA doesn't stand up to
Mon Mar 11, 2019, 11:17 PM
Mar 2019

these laws and state that doctors may not be required to tell lies to patients.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(26,730 posts)
3. In what way are you thinking First Amendment?
Mon Mar 11, 2019, 11:34 PM
Mar 2019

That has to do with the federal level as in "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech . . . ."

That doesn't apply at the state level, and these laws are state laws.

I just don't understand why the AMA doesn't stand up every single time one of these laws is passed and say that the Hippocratic Oath does not permit them to lie to patients, pure and simple. Which would hopefully lead to a court challenge. And if it were to go all the way to the Supreme Court, and they uphold those dreadful laws, doctors across the country should simply refuse to treat any patients other than those in the most dire circumstance. Which would also violate the Hippocratic Oath, but it might bring home to these idiots how stupid it is to have doctors lie to patients.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
4. The Constitution applies to States as well ...
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 01:49 AM
Mar 2019

Not saying 'First Amendment' is a good argument here, only pointing out this detail.

State Governments aren't allowed to make laws that violate the Constitution any more than the Feds can. I mean, they can TRY but they're likely to be challenged and repealed.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(26,730 posts)
5. The First Amendment specifically states
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 11:13 AM
Mar 2019

"Congress shall make no law". Which means states can make such laws. Just as First Amendment protection doesn't apply if your employer says you can't talk about things related to your job or company. The First Amendment doesn't apply.

So it really isn't a First Amendment issue, but a medical issue.

There was a time when people were routinely not told of a cancer diagnosis, or various other terminal diseases. I suppose that was at least in part because so little could be done about them. The assumption was that the doctor knew best, and so he would pick and choose what to tell the patient. Times and attitudes changed, and we now expect patients to be fully involved with and engaged in their treatment. People are given as much information as possible most of the time. The expectation is that the information is as complete and accurate as is possible.

Which is what doctors need to push back with. Otherwise, the next thing we know is states will be requiring pediatricians to repeat anti-vaccination nonsense before giving children vaccines.

Again, not a First Amendment issue, but one of allowing doctors to practice medicine as they've been trained.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
6. Agree, NOT a 1A issue. Disagree on your interpretation of The Law :)
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:01 PM
Mar 2019

Of course you're correct that the BoR does say 'Congress' ... but ... the Law of the Land has changed over time.

For a decent history of how it has evolved, here's a well-written history:
http://faculty.smu.edu/jkobylka/supremecourt/Nationalization_BoRs.pdf

Basically, the 14th Amendment has been interpreted to mean that States also have to adhere to the Constitution.

A relevant passage on the 1A portion of this process:

Whether the "assumption" in the Gitlow case was a reality remained unclear until 1931. In that year, the Court decided Stromberg v. California and Near v. Minnesota and ruled squarely that the due process clause guaranteed both freedom of speech (Stromberg) and freedom of the press (Near).

"It is no longer open to doubt," Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes wrote in the Near case, "that the liberty of the press and of speech is within the liberty safeguarded by the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. It was found impossible to conclude that this essential liberty of the citizen was left unprotected by the general guaranty of fundamental rights of person and property."

After the freedoms of speech and press had been nationalized, the question remained about other rights in the First Amendment. Did they come under the Court's definition in the Twining case, as fundamental principles of liberty and justice which inhere "in the very idea of free government" and which are "the inalienable right of a citizen to such a government"?

The Court addressed these questions in short order. The right of assembly and petition, the free exercise of religion and the prohibition of an establishment of religion were held to be applicable to the states via the due process clause in the Court's decisions in DeJonge v. Oregon (1937), Cantwell v. Connecticut (1940) and Everson v. Board of Education (1947).

By 1947, therefore, the nationalization of the First Amendment was complete, with all of the rights in that amendment having been held to be applicable to the states via the due process clause.


 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
8. I wasn't the one promoting a 1st Amendment argument on this issue :)
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 12:38 PM
Mar 2019

Not sure how the 1st really applies. Obviously there's all kinds of exceptions carved into our 1A rights ... people acting in their professional capacities/at work have all kinds of restrictions on 'what they can say legally' placed upon them. I don't think you could reasonably argue 'you can't make Doctors say this' ... based on the 1A, basically. Which is what I thought you were arguing from the start as well

In many ways it'd be fundamentally similar to a cop arguing he doesn't have to read anyone their Miranda Rights "Because 1st Amendment!". Yeah ... no.

That said, States cannot violate the 1A any more than the Feds can, as described in the document I shared in my last post. That was my main point from the start.

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