Some History Involving RFK Jr., his father, and, um, Joe McCarthy...THAT McCarthy.

[NNadir]

In my opinion, the greatest Democrat of the 20th century was Eleanor Roosevelt, followed, closely in 2nd place, her husband, FDR, the only man to have been elected President 4 times, and generally ranked by historians as the second or third greatest President, after #1 Lincoln, swapping places in poll to poll with George Washington between #2 and #3.

(Washington's rank is surely connected with his decision to leave office, to retire; watch Joe Biden's ranking in the future.)

My wife and I have made, in recent times, a few pilgrimages to Springwood, the FDR historical site in Hyde Park NY, and I will always remember for the rest of my life, a tour we took of Valkill, Ms. Roosevelt's private home after the death of her husband. It's a relatively cozy place, relatively small rooms that would not be out of place in any slightly upscale (certainly not hugely upscale) suburban home.

In the corner of the largest room to be seen on the tour, a "family room" sits a small round table, where the guide told us that John F. Kennedy sat, practically begging, trying to convince Ms. Roosevelt, who addressed correspondence with JFK using the salutation
"My Dear Boy...," not to oppose either his candidacy for the Democratic Party nomination, and then, to support him in the campaign for President, which she did, albeit reluctantly.

During the tour of Valkill, when the guide told the story of JFK sitting at the table, I piped in with some stories I recalled from Beschloss's fabulous book on the Kennedy/Roosevelt relationship, Kennedy and Roosevelt, an Uneasy Alliance, in particular about the time when FDR asked Eleanor to kick JFK's father, Joe Kennedy out of the house, (Springwood), telling her to make him a sandwich and put him on the train, because "I never want to see that sonofabitch again." (Eleanor did so, but was mortified.)

To get Joe Kennedy out of the country in 1940, this to prevent him from endorsing Roosevelt's election opponent, Wendell Wilke, and thus endangering the "Irish Vote," Roosevelt appointed Joe Kennedy as Ambassador to England, where Kennedy argued against giving aid to Britain in the then single handed war against Hitler. After election to his 4th term, FDR was done with Joe Kennedy; he would never need his support again.

There are a lot of people here, I guess, who hold a high opinion of Joe Kennedy's children, JFK and his brother RFK. I am not among them. Personally I consider JFK to be the worst Democratic President of the 20th century, having almost stumbled - by appearing to be a lightweight in the presence of Khrushchev (who was after all a survivor of Stalinism) at the Vienna summit, someone who could be pushed around. (The half has never been told.) Thus the planet was nearly incinerated. Were I an adult in 1960, like Ms. Roosevelt, I would have voted for JFK not because I hold a high opinion of him, but rather because he was the Democratic nominee, and his opponent, after all, was none other than Richard Nixon. Like Ms. Roosevelt, I would have been disappointed that Kennedy, and not some more worthy Democrat, was President.

In general, I have no use for the famous Kennedys, with the possible exception of Ted, and then only in his later life when he left his family's Cold Warrior mentality to become truly liberal. His decision to primary Jimmy Carter in 1980 may have contributed to the rise of Reaganism, a huge scar on American history.

We have, at DU, some RFK senior worshipping going on, as if RFK Sr. was a great guy and the delusional idiot RFK Jr. is betrarying his father.

I'm not in the set of people who believes that RFK was a great man, considering where and how he got his political start, and considering as well, what political figures gave him his start.

I quote from Joseph McCarthy, Robert Kennedy, and the Greek Shipping Crisis: A Study of Foreign Policy Rhetoric, Presidential Studies Quarterly , Winter, 1994, Vol. 24, No. 1, Domestic Goals and Foreign Policy Objectives (Winter, 1994), pp. 93-104.

The storyline by now seems all too familiar to an American audience. Newspaper headlines boldly announce that a group of young, brash men in small, hidden offices are secretly running American foreign policy. In Washington, the plot deepens as news leaks hint that these secret back-channel deals concern the fanatic obsession to halt the spread of communism. The drama heightens as Congressional Hearings are hurriedly called to investigate these suspicious foreign policy intrigues. Suddenly, under the hot glare of television lights, the accused brag about their "small role" in the whole sordid affair.

While events of this drama seem recent, they actually describe the plot of a scheme taking place in 1953 and involving United States Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy closely assisted by Robert Francis Kennedy...

This is the tale of RFK's role in the witch hunting communist conspiracy neofascist McCarthy hearings during which American artists, thinkers, and scientists were unjustly targeted as traitors by an appalling drunkard, Joe McCarthy, close friend of, um, the Kennedy family.

How close?

From the text:

... Bobby Kennedy first met Joe McCarthy when the Senator was invited to the University of Virginia at Charlottesville during the winter of 1950-51.x The young Kennedy was president of the Student Legal Forum at the University and used his father's influence to persuade McCarthy to speak at Virginia. Kennedy recalled that when he first met Joe McCarthy, "I liked him almost immediately."2 Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. asserts that this friendship had its roots in the common Irish heritage and McCarthy's "instinctive insolence toward the establishment" that the Senator shared with the Kennedys.3 After this initial meeting, McCarthy became a frequent visitor to the Kennedy compound at Hyannisport. For a short time, McCarthy dated Patricia Kennedy when she visited Washington with John Kennedy and her older sister, Eunice.4 When Bobby's first child, Kathleen, was was born on July 4, 1951, he and Ethel asked McCarthy to be the godfather.5...

I have heard, although it's not explicitly stated in this article, that the loon in question in modern times, also had McCarthy as his Godfather, a very important role in Catholicism of the day as I understand it. (It was important in my family as well, even though I was raised Episcopalian.)

RFK went on to play a role in the McCarthy hearings, as assistant to Roy Cohn, the political demon and witch hunter who went on to become Consigliere to none other than Donald Trump:

As the new Congress prepared to meet in January, 1953, Joe McCarthy made plans to make full use of his new Subcommittee's investigative power. McCarthy's plan was to "reconstruct the committee, to go into all kinds of investigations of communism and elsewhere."13 In early December 1952, Joseph Kennedy telephoned the Wisconsin Senator and asked him to appoint Robert Kennedy as the chief counsel of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.14 This was an awkward request, however, because McCarthy had already offered the job of chief counsel to Roy Cohn. As an assistant U.S. Attorney from New York, Cohn had established his anti-communist credentials by prosecuting the Federal Government's case against Ethel and Julius Rosenberg in 1951.15 John Kennedy, a member of the parent Government Operations Committee, advised his brother against taking any job with Mc Carthy because it would "entail a risk with anyone's reputation."16

Robert Kennedy eventually decided to accept an investigator's role on McCarthy's Subcommittee. It was hard to accept a secondary role to Cohn, but the young Kennedy believed that the "investigation of Communism was an important domestic issue" and "Joe McCarthy seemed to be the only one who was doing anything about it."17 With the strong encouragement of Joseph Kennedy, Robert Kennedy came to work as an assistant counsel for Joseph McCarthy's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. Francis Flanagan, a former F.B.I, agent, served as the "general counsel" for the Subcommittee and acted as Bobby Kennedy's intermediary between "chief" counsel Cohn and chairman McCarthy.18

Note that JFK's objection to RFK taking the job, was not based on principle, but rather on political reputation.

I have understood that there was some hostility between RFK and Cohn, but I doubt it really involved principle so much as rank on the witch hunting committee's legal staff.

There was one, and only one, Democratic Senator who failed to vote to censure Joe McCarthy in 1954 for his witch hunting.. That would be JFK, who had himself conveniently hospitalized during the vote. This was something for which Eleanor Roosevelt took him to task, because she, if not they, understood the horror of Joe McCarthy, to this day, a stain on American history.

Maybe there are some people who are surprised that there is a Kennedy who is a Trumper.

I'm not among them. It goes, to my mind, with the territory.

[hlthe2b]

1. Ignoring RFK JR who I am firmly convinced is brain-damaged from chronic methyl mercury toxicity, neurocysticercosis,

and chronic heroin abuse and like Trump, the only progressive thing about him is the rapid progression of his downfall...

That said, history is complex and unless severely biased-- includes the good and the bad. Most figures in history can amply provide both. Fairly assessing the two extremes and providing the overall context is an admirable thing, and the likes of Beschloss, Brinkley, Meacham, Kearns-Goodwin, and others do quite well--at least for the Presidents-- past and present. They and others manage to do so in their books-- and in a more summary fashion, the Historical Rankings of the Presidents along with scores of their colleagues. I take that as the more complete "measure of the man" at least from the standpoint of their Presidencies and where they have published on the subject, their full political careers. Hopefully, soon, they will be doing so to take the "measure of the woman" occupying the White House.

[NNadir]

2. I'm intrigued. What evidence is there that "brain worm" "bear dumping" Bobby Jr. has methyl mercury poisoning worse...

...than everyone else's?

Frankly, I never ever liked the guy, objecting most strenuously to his tenure as River Keeper of the Hudson. He is advertised as an "environmental lawyer." I think the term is an oxymoron in his case.

I am, however, rather cynical about the Kennedy family in toto, particularly after reading Beschloss, by the way. He may have not intended as such, and may feel differently about the Kennedys than I do, but nonetheless, I read it that way.

[hlthe2b]

3. He has discussed it. Google it. In his peak body-building period he was eating virtually nothing but tuna months/years

and received chelation therapy for astronomical levels, but that is only so-so effective if the intake has been going on long-term. That is from his own mouth and published comments/writings. He likewise discussed it after admitting to the brain tapeworm idiocy--whether from undercooked pork, wild bear or other roadkill, those cyst(s) are not the only or even likely the major part of his brain injury over time. Drugs, parasites, and organic mercury toxicity--over years. Not a good mix, but a neurologist's wet dream for further study.

[NNadir]

4. I don't credit his self diagnosis of mercury poisoning at all. His insight to science is abysmal, and always has been.

It sounds like paranoia to me. Let's not forget we're talking about an antivaxxer prone to conspiracy theories.

I know lots of people who eat tuna who are not insane.

I do understand the heroin thing, and I tend to believe he may have a brain worm, but I really, really, really don't care. I have known people with neurological problems, including brain damage, who remain nonetheless decent people. Gabby Giffords comes to mind.

[hlthe2b]

5. I see no reason to lie about eating tuna constantly and I have seen it in body-building men in the ER in past decades...

Some reporting has confirmed the care given by a NYC neurologist for the neurocysticercosis and no, we aren't going to get his full medical records... But everything about him and his self-reporting is plausible. I also see no benefit to him lying about this. I have referred patients for chelation with identical ingestion history--albeit most learned better two decades ago (and moved on to increase their body-building risks (for cancer) with chronic anabolic steroids--something that RFK JR might well be abusing as well.

[NNadir]

6. I tend to disagree with the idea that one needs a reason to lie to do so.

People lie all the time, to themselves and to each other, frequently, often spontaneously. It's the core of Trumpism.

I am not a medical professional, but I have long worked in the related field of pharmaceutical chemistry.

I have worked on the development of compounds related to fish oil, specifically those involving esters of DHA and EPA.

I took a brief tour in Google Scholar using the search terms "cognitive impairment" and tuna consumption since 2023. There is a decent number of hits, about 500. There seems to be a body of literature indicating positive associations between fish consumption and cognitive stability and resilience. This is not surprising to me, as I know that EPA (eicosopentenoic acid) is synthesized in only three known species, seaborne algae (which is the source in fish oil), black walnuts, and human (but not other mammalian) breast milk. There has been some speculation that its presence in breast milk has neurological implications that account for some of the putative intellectual development advantages associated with breast feeding.

There is some reference to mercury in these 500 hits, not a lot however.

I suspect that the main source of physiological mercury in this country is aerosols from coal fired powerplants, and that tuna consumption is less prominent. My admittedly brief foray into Google scholar suggests as much. Whether this source represents a reason for mass insanity is not for me to say, but I suspect other factors are more prominent.

All this said one of the features of antivaxxers, which includes obviously RFK Jr, Trumper, is a paranoid concern with trace thimerosal, a salicylic acid complex of mercury formerly used as a preservative in vaccines and a few other pharmaceutical preparations, but abandoned not because of any (discredited) association with mental health, in particular autism, but because of publicly inflated fear.

It's paranoia, not science.

The guy's a nut, and it's unsurprising to find paranoia about mercury poisoning to be a feature of his malevolent promotion of ignorance. I do not credit his self diagnosis. I have never actually thought highly of the guy, whenever I've suffered exposure to him, and I believe his fame is entirely tied to his family name - which doesn't mean much to me even if it does to many other people - and not to any accomplishments, intellectual or moral or otherwise. From my perspective, he's always been a shithead, a spoiled and pampered child demonstrating few, if any, redeeming qualities. He has just embraced publicly one of the worst people in the world. I find that unsurprising.

[hlthe2b]

7. You are not informed about methyl mercury toxicity. I have both advanced medical training as well as toxicology.

Read the medical epidemiological and clinical toxicological literature. You are ill-informed on this.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

8. Not Wilson?

Personally I consider JFK to be the worst Democratic President of the 20th century ...

Second half, maybe?

[NNadir]

9. Good point.

[Uncle Joe]

10. Well, I think JFK's most famous or promoted quote from his inaugural speech was the beginning departure from FDR's

New Deal and Second Bill of Rights ideology, policies and proposals.

(snip)

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/archives/address_text.html#:~:text=The%20right%20of%20every%20family,right%20to%20a%20good%20education.

(snip)

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility--I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it--and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-john-f-kennedys-inaugural-address#:~:text=And%20so%2C%20my%20fellow%20Americans,for%20the%20freedom%20of%20man.

Thanks for the thread NNadir

[NNadir]

11. I have never questioned that he could read Ted Sorensen's writing...

...well.

His elocution in reading this and other Sorensen speeches was impeccable.

The question is whether he actually believed what Sorensen wrote.

We all bore the psychological burden of nearly stumbling into nuclear war because he was unprepared to present himself as something other than a lightweight at the Vienna summit with Krushchev. This was the opportunity for each man to take the measure of the other. Rather than recognize the seriousness of this, Kennedy chose, as I understand it, to indulge in his proclivity for partying with women. Excuse the anachronisms, but I do not believe that Khrushchev would have played so fast and loose in Cuba if at Vienna he met a Truman, or Obama, or Biden or for that matter a Carter or a Clinton. Instead he would have met a firm and serious leader, who even were they the type of Cold Warrior that Kennedy was, having campaigned on a nonexistent "missle gap," a cold warrior with whom only Reagan can compare, our President would have not come across as a unserious easily distracted fool.

In terms of having actually avoided a nuclear war in the crisis, an analogy I would make would be to ask if we offer praise to a drunk driver who causes a collision but then wants or gets praise for rescuing his victims from their burning car. The question is not whether the Cuban missile crisis was resolved without war, but rather whether it should have happened in the first place.