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[Heddi]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Heddi) on Sun Jul 10, 2016, 08:43 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Still In Wisconsin]

1. Honestly, I would not go with a handgun at all. Shotgun is better,

and you can get 00 buckshot cartridges with lower power to reduce the kick and prevent penetration of walls.

[HassleCat]

13. Absolutely

A shotgun packs far more punch than any handgun. Easier to use. Far better.

[metroins]

52. I agree with you.

Shotgun is perfect home defense. I read the thread and saw their reasoning but I agree with you.

[Runningdawg]

2. Call up a local gun range

many offer package deals on training, permits and guns. Once you get the gun, don't just learn how to use it then put it away. For that 2am wakeup you literally need to know how to use the gun in your sleep. Practice, practice and practice some more. I think any gun you are comfortable holding would be a good start. I have personally carried a Bersa Thunder 380 for the past 15 years. We have a couple of others, but that is the one I am most comfortable with.

[Runningdawg]

19. You have received a lot of good advice

the best of which included renting before buying. All the options you listed are fine for home defense. Once again, your choice will be very personal.

[Straw Man]

22. Tell him ...

... that you do not need a .40 or a .45 -- not only is the ammo more expensive, but the recoil is harder to manage. Both of those factors would mitigate against getting lots of practice.

[DonP]

6. A few questions are in order

Just one opinion.

I go through this with all my concealed carry classes, as food for thought in the first session and ask the students to think it through.

Most ranges will rent you guns to try out for a minimum fee $10 to $12 for a session, if you buy a box of ammo from them. So test driving a few different choices is a smart way to see what works for both of you before spending a few $ hundred or more.

You'll get a lot of advice to; "Buy a shotgun, you don't even need to aim it". Reality is, you do need to aim it. At 30 feet even a 12 gauge shotgun has a pattern of less than .80 inches wide. They do require aiming, are heavy, difficult to maneuver in a home environment and also require practice to use reliably.

As a home defense gun size and weight (to a point) are irrelevant. You aren't looking to carry so having a bedside safe with biometric locks is probably sufficient for your needs. My daughter and SIL have one that only opens to just their fingerprints. Securing the gun, while still having fast access, is something to think about whether you have children or visitors in the home now or even just visiting occasionally.

1. How often are you willing to practice with it?
Semi automatics, like the Glock, are by design more complex and require more maintenance and care as well as more practice time at the range for both the gun and you both to remain reliable. Shooting, loading, clearing jams is a skill set that requires regular practice to maintain. At least once every other month or so is a good start and if you enjoy it, more often.

Revolvers tend to be lower maintenance, have fewer "jams" and are generally easier for people to shoot and use. They are simpler by design and require less practice to use efficiently. On the other hand they hold fewer rounds and are slower to reload. Trade offs are a fact of life. But, you both still need to make a commitment to practice and maintain whatever you have (better than your old .22).

2. How sensitive are you to recoil?
Its always a balancing act between caliber and recoil. The most common rounds are probably the .38 special and 9mm. Both are relatively low recoil and inexpensive, but recoil also depends on the weight of the firearm. Physics is a harsh mistress and a nice light gun like a Smith & Wesson Airweight that feels nice and light in the store is going to recoil more harshly than a heavier steel frame gun like a Ruger GP100 that will shoot .38 Special with the recoil of a .22 and will also handle .357 magnum as well. But is it too heavy for either of you to use accurately? Rent one and find out.

3. What's the best gun for you?
Short answer is always, the one that you can both shoot reliably and accurately at the distances you might need for home defense. E.g. nobody has a 75 foot long hallways to shoot down, so practice from 5-7 yards to maybe 50 feet or so max.

Rent a few guns until you find one that you can both handle, shoot, clean and load comfortably.

Hope this helps, but we have a lot of folks here that will chime in.

[beevul]

11. Well said, Don.

All of it.

Definitely rent a few at a range and see what fits you, and be sure to understand and practice safe handling and storage.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. Good perspective

From wiki:

"Massad Ayoob has stated that the "Tried, Tested, and True" 115 gr (7.5 g) +P or +P+ is the best self-defense load in this (9mm) caliber."

Any opinion?

[DonP]

21. Not gonna argue with Massad. But I prefer a 124Gr +P in 9mm

He's forgotten more than I'll probably ever know.

But any 9mm is going to be plenty fast for expansion purposes.

A little heavier bullet and load start to get you near or at 40 cal territory in terms of energy.

My EDC is a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45ACP with a Crimson Trace grip and 185 Grain Gold Dot hollow points. A .45 needs that little extra speed for expansion, especially out of a 3 inch barrel. Since I reload practice is still affordable.

[Eleanors38]

40. Excellent advice. Listen to DonP, Heddi.

In the Austin area we have at least two good-sized women shooters' clubs worth considering. Another note: I prefer outdoor ranges as I feel more relaxed (indoor ranges are usually pay-by-the-hour), the noise is less and you can sit down and watch other shooters at your leisure. But Austin's outdoor ranges are increasingly overwhelmed, so I often have to use the poorly-lit and noisy indoor facilities. But maybe there is a touch of realism in the latter.

Good luck.

[petronius]

7. I have no advice, but I'm really glad you're OK, and hope there are no

lingering effects (stress, etc). Stay safe, and take care of yourselves!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. Welcome :)

I'm not the handgun person. But I'm sure several folks will reply with suggestions.
My impressions really don't count as I've fired a handgun very infrequently.

I will share #11 from the USMC rules for gun fighting: http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/gunfightrules.asp
Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.

It's a somewhat amusing list but does contain considerable wisdom.

I do strongly suggest both a good lock box and a trigger lock. Safety first.
While not all safety and security measures and devices are needed in all venues, you can only use the ones you have and it's better to have and not need than need and not have.

I would also strongly urge classes in incorporating self-defense and safety and a bunch of range time and regular practice.
I know of a school out West called Frontsight near Las Vegas. I don't know your location but there are some certified instructors here who could make suggestions. I'm sure someone at your local range can guide you as well.

Most of all, treat a firearm as truly your last resort. Prepare and take all aspects of home security seriously before someone else does again. Stronger doors, alarms, window locks, lighting, fencing, etc. Your local police will generally have the latest information on break-ins and the means and if there is common point of entrance for the scum.

Practicing at a range frequented by local law enforcement will give you the chance to become known and ask about any criminal activity in your town. At the worst, if you are again victimized and the police respond while the assailants are still in the house, they stand a better chance of recognizing you. If your area has a watch group, you may want to get involved. You can get info from law enforcement and others in the watch group and knowledge is power.

Cops often like Glocks because they are department issue and that's what they train with and carry. I have heard/read good things about the XD but I confess that I have no idea of the differences between the XD and XDM. One advantage of wheel gun (revolver) is they almost never jam. I'd suggest one as a backup. There are small caliber revolvers that hold 10 or 12 rounds but I wouldn't suggest one for defense.

Train hard... an ounce of sweat saves a pint of blood.

[DonP]

38. She didn't lose her spouse. He killed the intruder.

Take some time to actually read her post before launching a gun control message.

[840high]

16. You did the right thing. Many

hugs to you and hubby. So glad ur ok.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. It is very good to know that you made it though this nightmare

I wish you the best in the future.

[sarisataka]

14. Welcome, you are definitely in the correct forum

Usually my first question to someone asking about defensive firearms is 'are you really prepared to use it.' Since you have already had the unfortunate requirement to use deadly force that is answered. You have my condolences. Causing the loss of another's life is not taken casually and always extracts a cost. Know that what you feel is just an indication that you are a compassionate human who was pushed into a situation outside your true nature.

As to what is the best gun- that opens the door to the biggest, most contentious argument among guns owners. The short answer that everyone agrees on is it is 'the gun you can shoot accurately and will operate flawlessly every time."

Now to less clear considerations:

-caliber- you want to stop your assailant as soon as possible (wounded or dead is irrelevant, when they stop, you stop shooting)
No gun is magic and all pistols are poor, despite what many amateurs and even experts may claim. If one caliber was best, we wouldn't have the plethora we do. Usually bigger calibers stop better but at the price of greater recoil (.357 mag is great but it can be like firing a cannon to a novice). .38 is the absolute smallest I would recommend, .45 is the "best" (by a very small amount)
9mm is a good compromise and is my choice for my HD pistol. Use quality, factory load hollow point- they are expensive but will stop an assailant faster and have less issue with over-penetration, which endangers others.
(PURE PERSONAL OPINION> stay away from .40. It gives you the recoil of .45 and the stopping power of 9mm)

-size- {I will take a moment to allow you to insert a joke} OK, since you indicate this is for home defense, not carry- go with a full size pistol (unless grip is an issue). They are more accurate and give easier control of recoil. Also they will typically hold more rounds (if the fecal material has really hit the oscillator)

-grip- this is related to size. It is important that the gun feels good in your hand. Women typically have smaller hands whereas men have larger. Since this is for both you and you husband, it must feel good to both. You may have to consider a compact size or a 9mm instead of a .45 so it feels good to both of you.

-action- a revolver is like a kodak- point and shoot; a semi-auto is a 35mm- better result in the hands of someone who is familiar with it. If you will practice regularly, the semi-auto will serve you better. Practice immediate action drills. Semi-autos jam very rarely but Mr. Murphy visits at the most inopportune times


Secondary considerations- training, liability insurance, storage options... give thought to them as well.

So what do I recommend?
-I am not a Glock fan. They have a rep of negligent discharges if you handle them casually (which should never happen but humans are flawed creatures). I do have friends who swear by them and they are popular with law enforcement

-Springfield makes quality pistols. I have fired several and been impressed, though not enough to purchase one.

-Sig has outstanding firearms, though rougher on the wallet. I keep a P226 in a biometric safe for home defense, though many find it too large of a pistol to handle comfortably

-Ruger is an oft overlooked choice. Usually ~$100 less than a Glock, they are functional, not "sexy". That said the are reliable, accurate and have the same safety features as Glocks, only better. (the loaded indicator is massive, easy to see or feel if it is too dark to see)

-Smith and Wesson- I only have personal experience with their revolvers- all good.

-Taurus- easy(er) on the wallet. They have a poor quality reputation but I have yet to meet someone in person who has had issue. Everyone I talk to is pleased with their choice.

Handle some pistols at the counter to eliminate ones they you don't like (insist the shop follows proper safety procedures- there have been instances where somehow a loaded gun ended up on display). Once you have narrowed it down, see about renting your choices at a range to make the best choice for you.

[ileus]

20. I'm going to go ahead and recommend a sidearm for HD without any other comments.

For Home defense I prefer a pistol that doesn't need to sleep in a holster, all the slab sided semi-autos for me at least require a holster if they're going to be easily accessible. That for me means a DA/SA or even a pistol with a manual safety. My preferred pistol is the CZ p-09 or even the Glock 19 sized P-07. These can be configured as either DA/SA or SA with a safety, I left mine with the decocker DA/SA setup.

It gives me comfort knowing that first trigger pull requires a little more than that of the glocks, after that the SA pull is around 4.5# and the decocker makes it easy to drop the hammer making the unit double action again.

CZ is really the ignored jewel of the handgun world in the USA.

[pablo_marmol]

23. Oh damn Heddi........**so sorry** to hear of your ordeal.

You've received some fantastic input IMO from both the gun shop salesperson and those who have commented on this thread.

All I can add is to support what the salesperson said -- as I favor the Springfield XD. I test fired the XD 9 4.8 at my local range, and must say that it shoots like a dream. I've been shooting my service model XD .40 for many years. I originally went with the XD based on a rec from my gunsmith, who pointed out that it was a sturdier pistol than the Glock. If you do a side-by-side comparing the Glock with the XD you'll notice that the latter feels comparatively "top heavy" -- a good thing for taming recoil. I don't care for Glocks at all. Not only don't they feel as "right" ergonomically to me, but the recoil on the model that I shot felt odd......and resulted in some trigger bite on the pad of my finger. Keep in mind, your experience could be the exact opposite of mine.

Even though my vision is good, I replaced the stock sights with big dot TruGlos. They make a world of difference. And if you go with any pistol with rails for accessories, you could add light/laser as your budget permits.

Finally, I'll cosign what another member said.......which is to go with a larger +P round. The folks at Springfield didn't recommend +P+ for my pistol -- but I've had no issues with +P ammo.

Take care Heddi.

[tortoise1956]

24. My thoughts...

First, a shotgun is far and away the best defense weapon. The sound of a pump shotgun being racked is probably burned into the psyche of every American male over the age of 5 in this country. Plus, they're damn near idiot-proof - simple to operate, and reliable. However, if you don't want a shotgun, then:

Between Glock and Springfield, I recommend either a Springfield XD 9mm with a 4 or 5 inch barrel (Springfields have an additional grip safety that the Glock doesn't, that will help to protect against accidental discharges), or a revolver like the Ruger GP-100 in .357 magnum that you can load with .38 special rounds. If you get a semi auto, remember that you either have to leave the gun in the drawer with a round in the chamber (which means the pistol is sitting in your drawer needing just a hand to grip it and pull the trigger - a bad idea if you have small persons running around the house), or when the shit hits the fan, you'll need to remember to chamber a round before it's anything more than a paperweight.

Another possibility is a CZ-75B, or a clone of said CZ like Tristar, Jericho, Magnum Research, EAA, or SAR. CZ-style firearms are well-designed and reliable semi-autos with plenty of capacity. The only issue you could have is that the slide profile is pretty low, and it might be difficult to rack the slide back. I have an EAA and an SAR in 9mm, and sometimes my old hands don't like the low slides. Other than that, they're both fine weapons. As a matter of fact, the SAR is sitting in my nightstand as we speak.

The best answer is to find a shooting range or gun shop in the area that will let you rent guns to try them out, and see what feels best to you. Hell, you may decide that the best answer is a 1911-style .45...you never know. After buying it, take it out and put at least a full box of ammunition downrange per user, so that you know what it feels like. After that, it's a good idea, if possible, to get out at least once a month to stay in practice and remain familiar with operating your firearm.

I hope this is of some help to you.

On edit - second the gun safe with a bio-metric lock. Safer for all concerned.

Also, I have a Springfield XD .40 with a 5-inch barrel, and a Ruger GP-100 .357 magnum with a 6-inch barrel. I like the Springfield ergonomics better than Glock, but that is personal preference.

Finally, don't count out other calibers such as .380. With the right ammunition, a .380 can be pretty potent, and there are a lot of good manufacturers making them at a reasonable price. Bersa, EAA, Chiappa, Walther and KEl-Tec come immediately to mind.

Find one that feels right to the both of you, shoot it first if you can, and once it's yours, practice!

[Travis_0004]

32. I agree with all of the above, except the biometric safe

batteries fail, biometric is unreliable. Get a safe with a simplex lock. Almost nothing to fail

[pablo_marmol]

34. Agree.

I can get into my "old-school" spin-dial safe very quickly by virtue of the fact that I dial in my first #......then move the dial close to the second. A quick left-right motion gets me into the safe.

[Marengo]

25. I've been waiting for one of the resident controllers to show up and inform you...

That having a firearm in the home is a far greater danger to you than any intruder. Something to the effect the intruder will simply take it from, and use it on, you. That's the dire certainty we are frequently warned of. So far, crickets. Interesting.

[Marengo]

46. Is it your opinion that a gun kept in the home is more dangerous to the occupants...

Compared to any benefit it may offer for self defense?

[Marengo]

47. Aren't you the one advocating gun owners be shunned?

[Duckhunter935]

53. So you do not believe it?

Should you not inform the OP of all of the facts?

[Kennah]

26. For reliability, it's hard to beat a revolver

Rifles and shotguns often aren't very intuitive if one isn't trained and practiced with one.

Semiautomatic pistols are the norm with law enforcement, and yes the simplicity of Glocks make them very popular. However, again, if you aren't trained and practiced with a semiautomatic, they can and do malfunction.

[doc03]

27. I like my Springfield XDM .40 cal. it is accurate easy to operate and

has a light recoil in my opinion. Some people don't like them because there is no manual safety but in a situation
like you were in you wouldn't want to pull the trigger and find you forgot to release the safety. Just make sure if you
have children they can't get their hands on it. Just an observation here about whenever someone suggests maybe the AR-15
or similar weapons should be banned. The discussion always ends up how I need one for home defense. After all these recommendations on the weapon you should buy for home defense not one single person has recommended an AR-15
or anything like that.

[AwareOne]

28. Home invasion that resulted in death

Do you have a link to news story about this?

[pablo_marmol]

35. Right -- like it would be a great idea to reveal her identity.

Yup --- you're quite the "aware one".

And this doesn't even address the insensitivity and accusatory nature of your post. Pretty disgusting, IMO.

Edited to add: Do you actually believe that the media covers every self-defense that results in death? SMH.

[AwareOne]

43. Yes, a story of this magnitude would be all over the news

There are two kinds of people in the world Pablo, carnies and rubes, don't be a rube. Go answer your email from the African prince who wants to make you a millionaire.

[benEzra]

30. Glocks, Springfields, the Smith & Wesson M&P, the FN FNS, etc. are all good choices.

I prefer 9mm, because it offers much better capacity than .45 and is gentler to shoot. Some makes/models offer manual safeties in addition to the safety on the trigger, and some don't. It basically comes down to what fits your hand better, and what has the features you want in terms of sights, size, capacity, etc. and whether or not you want a manual safety lever.

If you decide to ever get any other guns in addition to the pistol, you might also consider something like this, which uses the same ammunition (9mm) and has a good reputation for reliability:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/HI-POINT-SEMI-AUTO-RIFLES/2066767.uts?

There are also more expensive 9mm carbines out there that use Glock magazines. If you do get more into target shooting someday, there are small rifles in other calibers that fill the target and defensive roles even better, albeit at greater cost; shotguns are also great, but intimidating to shoot. But a 9mm pistol is an excellent choice.

I'd also suggest getting a good, reliable flashlight (or a weapon mounted light) and learn to use it in conjunction with the pistol. Being able to identify what you are shooting at in the dark is important. Even a little $20 Streamlight Microstream or Stylus will work, all the way up to a Surefire or something.

For safe storage with quick access, something like a Gunvault might be useful, if you feel you need one.

https://www.amazon.com/Gunvault-GV1000S-Mini-Vault-Standard/dp/B001C601KA/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1468166829&sr=1-4&keywords=gunvault
https://www.amazon.com/GunVault-SV-500-SpeedVault-Handgun/dp/B006OGNLKA/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1468166829&sr=1-2&keywords=gunvault

I hope that's not too much information. I'm so sorry you had to go through what you did.

[DashOneBravo]

31. I'm sorry you went through that

Once you decide on a pistol, take a look at your homes layout and come up with a self defense plan. Somewhere you can defend easily while waiting for law enforcement.

[Kang Colby]

33. Glock

Because it just has to work every time. My wife and I both trust our Glocks.

Having said that, I would go to a range and rent the Springfield, Glock, and also the S&W M&P 9mm. See which one fits your hand best, which one do you feel you have an accuracy head start with, which one has the best sight picture? Once you decide, go get some training and shoot as often as you can.

[Buzz cook]

36. A loud barky dog would be a better investment

Follow that with stronger locks and an alarm system.

A firearm is a last resort. Too many people think of it as the only resort.

[DonP]

37. Next time, just maybe actually read the post before you jump in

"And yes, we have a dog and yes, we have a security system. This was a completely random crime that every.single.person who hears about the method of entry and following events is like 'man, that's really fucked up."

[Buzz cook]

39. Your right I missed the throw away paragraph

at the end of the post.

I stand by what I wrote, better locks and a more secure home will serve you better than a gun.

Given your history with firearms it doesn't seem as if a different type of firearm will solve your problems.

That you are asking this question on a liberal web site indicates you are not thinking clearly on the issue.

A dedicated firearm site such as http://thefiringline.com/forums/ has hundreds of threads addressing your question. Many of the posters there are trained professionals such as this woman http://www.corneredcat.com/

If you hope to solve your problem with a gun you really need to rethink your home security strategy.

[DonP]

42. Pssst, many liberals own guns too, including AR15s

Stop stereotyping to suit a predetermined prejudice. You'll be amazed at what you discover.

In deep blue Illinois we have over 2 million gun owners and over 200,000 concealed carry permits, most of them in Chicago, do you actually think they are all Republican?

[sarisataka]

50. Excellent choice

The reasons you list are well thought out.

You have my deepest wish is that you never have the occasion to have to use it.

[guillaumeb]

51. A suggestion,

given that the incidence of death by firearm is much higher in homes with guns, do not buy a gun. it gives the illusion of protection.

[Heddi]

56. Deleting this thread

Thabks everyone, I value my safety and am deleting this thread and my responses as there are ways people can find me and my address based on info contained.