Answering the door late at night

[Kaleva]

There are couple of threads in GD and one in LBN about an armed homeowner who opened the door late in the evening with a gun in hand and was shot by police who were responding to a domestic disturbance call but went to the wrong address.


New Mexico Police Shot and Killed a Man After They Went to the Wrong House While Responding to a Dom

Officers kill homeowner after responding to wrong address

More on the deputies shooting man at wrong house?

"Body camera footage shows as the officers backed away from 5305 Valley View Avenue, the homeowner, Robert Dotson, 52, opened the screen door armed with a handgun. At this point in the encounter, officer(s) fired at least one round from their duty weapon(s) striking Mr. Dotson."

https://www.dps.nm.gov/blog/2023/04/06/state-police-investigate-ois-involving-the-farmington-police-department/

As I've mentioned a few times in the threads above, I'm unaware of any reputable self-defense expert or organization that teaches people to do what the deceased homeowner did. And to date, no one has mentioned one that does.

Several years ago when I took a class to get my state CPL, the book we used that was approved by the state is the NRA Guide to the Basics Of Personal Protection In The Home. I still have it and read it from time to time for refresher training and I certified that I had read it from beginning to end within a 6-month period before I applied for a new license last year. Chapter 14 discusses responding to a possible break in, someone pounding on the door late at night may be attempting such, and the very first step it says to do is to withdraw to safety. It does not say to go to the door with a gun in hand and open the door.

Below is a video on this subject by Massad Ayoob, a nationally recognized expert on the use of guns for self-defense:

The actions of the homeowner lead me to believe he had little to no training on the use of a gun for self/home defense. He may have had training and choose to ignore it.

While I have a CPL, I do not carry a loaded gun out in public as I do not have the desire or money to take and then practice the extra training I feel I would need in order to proficiently handle a gun in an emergency situation out in public. Prior to falling down the basement stairs last year and having my left shoulder replaced, I practiced and did home defense drills with my revolver about 3 times a week. I haven't been able to do that, so the gun is empty and locked away in a gun safe in the master bedroom and the ammo is in a locked metal ammo box in the basement. It's going to remain that way until I get back on track with my training.

We still do safe room drills where I or my wife will yell out "Safe Room!" when the other isn't expecting it and we both move as quickly as possible to the master bedroom which is the designated safe room. The bedroom door is reinforced and has a dead bolt. We also do this drill with the grandchildren when they are here.

[brush]

1. Still at it? Leave it alone. One trigger-happy cop, in a group of LEOs at the wrong house...

Last edited Mon Apr 10, 2023, 02:09 AM - Edit history (1)

hot and killed an alarmed homeowner answering his door late at night. One cop out of the group couldn't control himself.

It's a tragic situation of one stupid cop, who I'm sure the commander is sorry he ever bought him along on the detail. Those assholes are the ones who need to be weeded out of law enforcement asap as they cause so much tragedy and heartbreak.

ASAP.

[Kaleva]

2. Is it your opinion that Massad Ayoob is full of shit?

That even the NRA is wrong in teaching that the best course of action is to retreat to a safe location?

Edit: It's my opinion that gun owners should hold themselves to a high standard when it comes to training even if the state they reside in doesn't mandate it. Some here disagree.

[brush]

6. You're like a dog with a bone on this. A trigger-happy cop fucked up. Let it go.

[Kaleva]

7. Is Massad Ayoob correct or not?

What points, if any, do you disagree with?

[Kaleva]

12. You are in a predicament

You can't say experts and organizations like the NRA are correct as that'd mean the deceased didn't follow widely accepted and taught procedure.

If you say the deceased took the appropriate action, then that places you further to the right of the NRA.

[brush]

13. Still? Let it go, buddy.

[Kaleva]

14. I've been advocating proper training for gun owners for years now

I'm not going to let it go..

I also plan on attending the local school board meeting soon to push for the board to mandate that the schools in the district provide educational material concerning safe gun storage for students to take home

An example:

"Parent group asks Grand Rapids school board to promote safe gun storage to families"

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2023/03/parent-group-asks-grand-rapids-school-board-to-promote-safe-gun-storage-to-families.html

A link to some more info:

https://besmartforkids.org/

[Hangingon]

27. Amen!

I totally agree. The info from my CHL training class is so valuable. When that requirement was reduced, gun owners lost needed information

[The Magistrate]

3. The Problem, Sir

Is that a large proportion of people who procure firearms do so in service of a fantasy, they buy them in hopes they will one day have opportunity to shoot someone without consequence to themselves. A late night knock on the door just could be opportunity knocking, and if the gun is not ready to hand, the chance of a lifetime might be lost. That's not a chance anybody wants to take....

I am a bear on the subject of police use of force in situations where it is obviously unwarranted or excessive. A police officer who, in a circumstance where violence is more than usually likely (which a 'domestic disturbance' call certainly is), shoots at someone displaying a firearm, has not in my view done anything without warrant, or excessive.

[Kaleva]

4. I think some delude themselves into feeling empowered by a gun in hand

And they end up putting themselves at risk .

[Hangingon]

25. Does it matter if he went to the door?

The police would have broken the door down and entered. If he appeared with a gun, they would have shot him. Instantly. If the police identified themselves properly, he should have put the gun down away from the door. The police are supposed to be trained. And should not be trained to shoot at the first sign of the presence of a gun.

[Kaleva]

26. And gun owners are supposed to be trained

The homeowner pointed his gun at one of the police officers and one can see that in the video .

A trained homeowner with a gun would have retreated to a designated safe room and called 911 from there. Instead he went to the main door with gun in hand, opened it and pointed his weapon at an officer. The result of that was predictable but entirely avoidable.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172212828#post26

[Hangingon]

28. Amen!

Training requirements should never have been reduced or eliminated

[Kaleva]

29. True.

It's pretty much up to us gun owners who take this seriously to encourage all gun owners and those thinking about getting a gun to get training and to practice that training.

[Straw Man]

30. The problem ...

The Problem, Sir

Is that a large proportion of people who procure firearms do so in service of a fantasy, they buy them in hopes they will one day have opportunity to shoot someone without consequence to themselves.

... is that your contention has no citation or reference to a source, so one suspects that the purported existence of this "large proportion" is indeed "in service of a fantasy" -- your own.

[The Magistrate]

31. Thank You For The Laugh, Dear

I know it's a tricky moment when you realize things you'd always hoped to keep hidden are spoken of casually in public, and you are confronted by the fact that your secrets are known to anyone with even a modest experience of life on the planet, that you really are that transparent. But you'll manage, I'm sure. There's no way out of a fear except passing through it.

[Straw Man]

32. You give yourself far too much credit.

Your "experience of life" is far too "modest" for the claims you make to know my "secrets." But thank you for your concern and your condescension. They warm my heart -- really, they do.

[oneshooter]

5. Anybody who knocks on my front door have already crossed over 2 closed gates and traveled 120 yards

onto my property, I have a camera on my door to check you out, and another looking at my driveway, If needed I can turn on 2 very bright strip lights on my porch, I can also exit my back yard through a gate and have you back lighted on my porch. There is a camera on my gate, along with a flood light, phone box, and warning signs. I have 60+ acres of land. The local Sheriff has a pass code for the electric gate.

[Kaleva]

8. You are pretty well covered

Gates, lights, cameras and an exit

[oneshooter]

9. That is not all

2= 12ga pump shotguns
3-20ga doubles
5-Mi Garands
3 - M1 carbines
4- Evil assault rifles (Ar-15)
3 45 semi auto handguns ( also evil)
7 revolvers (semi evil?)
4_ ML rifles
3- ML shotguns
6 ML revolvers

And various and sundry edged items, "several" rounds of various ammunition
Reloading equipment for various calibers.
Casting equipment for various types of projectiles

Well, you get the idea.

[Fla_Democrat]

11. I think you will be ok, once you drop the ARs

I mean, it's not like 12 gauge pumps, Garands, M1s or .45s (assuming you mean 1911, not those evil Glock, undetectable ones) have ever been used in a war.

[oneshooter]

16. Why drop the ARs

Your personal preference?

[Fla_Democrat]

18. Because they are weapons of war....

Or, at least we are told. Unlike the others I pointed out, the trench gun, the Garand, the 1911's, etc.

I was being facetious.

I personally like the AR platform, I got a 2 stamper in my get home kit. The platform does catch a ration of shit from the ignorant and misinformed, and from AK Jesus, but Herrera is just a contrarian.





Schrödinger's AR. Simultaneously a deadly weapon of war that has no business being in civilians hands, and yet, totally useless against a military.

[oneshooter]

10. Sorry, I forgot about the 500yd 3 point range ,

[AndyS]

17. Paranoid much? nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

19. Well...

Hi

I am for sure, I have six fire extinguishers.

[oneshooter]

20. No, However you seem to be

You fear others and want control over them.

[AndyS]

22. Hmmm, project much?

I couldn't give a bigger shit about you and your paranoia. Hide inside your barricaded house with all your guns, lights and trip wires or whatever else you need to feel 'safe' from the outside world. I am interested in the fact that something like 70% of mass shooters and domestic killers bought their guns legally. Law abiding citizens. The law abiding citizens that politicians fight so vociferously allow to buy guns.

The same ones the gun industry consider their prime customer base.

[oneshooter]

23. Same ol Same ol.

Got anything new? Like a workable, legal, and sane way to answer "your" problem? Try trashing the Bill of Rights.

[Paladin]

15. What a monumentally sad thread this is. (nt)

[oneshooter]

21. Why is that?

It is simply a discussion on the internuts.