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quaint

(3,635 posts)
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:19 PM Apr 2020

Wanted urgently: People who know a half century-old computer language

Trying not to think how first they said they don't need us any longer, then it would be convenient if we die...
Wanted urgently: People who know a half century-old computer language so states can process unemployment claims

On top of ventilators, face masks and health care workers, you can now add COBOL programmers to the list of what several states urgently need as they battle the coronavirus pandemic.
In New Jersey, Gov. Phil Murphy has put out a call for volunteers who know how to code the decades-old computer programming language called COBOL because many of the state's systems still run on older mainframes.
In Kansas, Gov. Laura Kelly said the state's Departments of Labor was in the process of modernizing from COBOL but then the virus interfered. "So they're operating on really old stuff," she said.
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Wanted urgently: People who know a half century-old computer language (Original Post) quaint Apr 2020 OP
Didn't we go through this in 1999? So, after 20 years NOW they're upgrading? TreasonousBastard Apr 2020 #1
Y2K didn't eliminate cobol Midnightwalk Apr 2020 #5
Now I vaguely remember that quick and dirty fix... TreasonousBastard Apr 2020 #16
Oh one more thought Midnightwalk Apr 2020 #17
The problem was never really COBOL. SouthernLiberal Aug 2023 #25
I've heard that before. There are a large Phoenix61 Apr 2020 #2
I took a COBOL course quite a few decades ago. Can't see how the new guys couldn't pick it right up. Girard442 Apr 2020 #3
What a great way to learn how and how not to code....doing maintenance dubious Nov 2020 #21
may I assume this is what you get when you starve government? rurallib Apr 2020 #4
When I began my career in IT, we used to make fun of COBOL as an old geezer's language DBoon Apr 2020 #6
We called it DP in '68. quaint Apr 2020 #7
It was called MIS when I started DBoon Apr 2020 #11
COBOL lilymidnite Apr 2020 #8
Especially as a volunteer! quaint Apr 2020 #9
Should they be familiar with MVS JCL as well? DBoon Apr 2020 #10
most people don't use command line shells Midnightwalk Apr 2020 #18
There are thousands of us COBOL programmers. To clarify, COBOL sinkingfeeling Apr 2020 #12
Volunteers? Is the gov looking to get people to fix stuff for free? JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2020 #13
The C language was developed by Dennis Ritchie in 1972. LastDemocratInSC Apr 2020 #14
Someday tazkcmo Apr 2020 #15
Sort of like the medieval help desk. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2022 #24
I got my Computer Programmer/Analyst Associate of Science 2 Year Degree back in Sloumeau Apr 2020 #19
Powerful multidimensional Arrays quaint Apr 2020 #20
COBOL still runs many mission-critical mainframes SorellaLaBefana Nov 2022 #22
Thanks for all of this. quaint Nov 2022 #23
I was let go a long time ago SouthernLiberal Aug 2023 #26

Midnightwalk

(3,131 posts)
5. Y2K didn't eliminate cobol
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:36 PM
Apr 2020

It didn’t even fix all the y2k bugs. Some of them were just shifted to 2020 or 2050.

Fixing the problem mean using a 4 digit year which would work until 9999. Sometimes there isn’t space in a record or it’s more work. The workaround was to basically redine 00 as 20 or 50. That way it didn’t wrap again until 2020 or 2050

I didn’t realize that’s what happened until a friend told me they had a y2k problem back in January and I read up on it.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
16. Now I vaguely remember that quick and dirty fix...
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 06:32 PM
Apr 2020

I kept asking why they couldn't simply(!) update COBOL to accept 4 character dates. Most of the answers I got said it would be easier to rewrite everything in a modern language.

Midnightwalk

(3,131 posts)
17. Oh one more thought
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 06:55 PM
Apr 2020

I remembered/realized something else as well.

Big companies have mostly updated the backend data to have 4 digit years. Data is an asset any more. For example, letting you manage your account online lets you find new things you want which makes them money. Convenient for us as well.

The web interface isn’t cobol but some logic still is. The cobol code still sometimes thinks of it as a 2 digit number so bugs have shown up.

I think the recent stories have been governments and utilities and such. They had less or no financial reason to modernize so they are more prone.

I hate wrap type issues.

SouthernLiberal

(408 posts)
25. The problem was never really COBOL.
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 09:58 PM
Aug 2023

Cobol was perfectly capable of handling as many characters in a date as you cared to put there.

The problem was that the applications were written in a time where having two more digits in every date used up way too much of fairly limited storage. Now, that problem was fixed by the people who made computers and computer storage before I ever started coding.

But the bosses were not going to to pay their staff to fix that problem 20 or more years before it was going to be a problem.

That is where the idea of of we'll have a whole new language. The application code that had been written to not waste two extra digits in every date would all have to be rewritten any way, and certainly by that time, there would a need to also change the data format as well, and then we could fix the Y2K problem without having to get some C-level boss to pay for it.

I had a nice gig for a while fixing Y2K code, because the company I worked for had hired a crowd of the youngest Cobol programmers they could hire and just told them to fix it. And they tried, but it was a system with over 5,000 lines of code, all written by programmers who hadn't had any guidance either.

Now I knew some companies who decided to go the new language route. But there were still those C-level guys who wanted to save money, so the the new application code wasn't understood by anyone who understood the old applications.

I new one company who hired some consultants to install a new system, and make it work with all the modifications they had in their old system. They were just a few days before going live, when they realize that neither the people who wrote the new system, nor the consultants ever thought about saving the data on the computer. The form was just filled out and printed.

Phoenix61

(17,716 posts)
2. I've heard that before. There are a large
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:22 PM
Apr 2020

number of legacy systems out there running COBOL programs. I knew COBOL many years ago back in the days of actual key punch machines.

Girard442

(6,420 posts)
3. I took a COBOL course quite a few decades ago. Can't see how the new guys couldn't pick it right up.
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:29 PM
Apr 2020

On the other hand, trying to make changes to legacy systems encrusted with decades of barnacles of mediocre ad hoc mods -- good luck with that.

dubious

(4 posts)
21. What a great way to learn how and how not to code....doing maintenance
Wed Nov 18, 2020, 01:29 PM
Nov 2020

I began my career doing maintenance on legacy code. You quickly form opinions on the best way to do something and you learn to value simplicity of design. I agree, it shouldn't be difficult for an experienced developer to learn Cobol. The problem is there's always something sexier to work on, using the language du jour.

rurallib

(63,269 posts)
4. may I assume this is what you get when you starve government?
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:34 PM
Apr 2020

stuff doesn't get updated.

Barely knew COBOL in my day.

DBoon

(23,144 posts)
6. When I began my career in IT, we used to make fun of COBOL as an old geezer's language
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:42 PM
Apr 2020

that was in 1983...

lilymidnite

(358 posts)
8. COBOL
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:48 PM
Apr 2020

I learned a bit of COBOL in 1980.

They are suffering from years of software neglect and taking low-ball bids.

Did they do the same at Y2K?

Bite me. I'm not going to fix anyone's COBOL.

DBoon

(23,144 posts)
10. Should they be familiar with MVS JCL as well?
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 04:54 PM
Apr 2020

VSAM files?

Other stuff mentioned in ancient history books?

Midnightwalk

(3,131 posts)
18. most people don't use command line shells
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 07:07 PM
Apr 2020

I do regularly although mostly on linux machines and my mac which has x11.

You might be surprised to find what still gets used and how much of it.

The details should never be visible to most programmers.

Obviously I agree with the gist of what you said. Just a different perspective.

sinkingfeeling

(53,174 posts)
12. There are thousands of us COBOL programmers. To clarify, COBOL
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 05:18 PM
Apr 2020

still runs on the newest and fastest mainframes there are. The programs may be old, but they work.
And mainframes are almost never hacked.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,811 posts)
13. Volunteers? Is the gov looking to get people to fix stuff for free?
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 05:20 PM
Apr 2020

Many of us old COBOL programmers are now retired. It would take a bit of enticement to go back to work.

LastDemocratInSC

(3,859 posts)
14. The C language was developed by Dennis Ritchie in 1972.
Wed Apr 8, 2020, 05:44 PM
Apr 2020

That was 48 years ago. C is an essential language for many types of projects.

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
19. I got my Computer Programmer/Analyst Associate of Science 2 Year Degree back in
Wed Apr 15, 2020, 05:24 PM
Apr 2020

The 1980s. I learned Fortran on punch cards. We were required to take two COBOL classes. COBOL is an excellent language. Because it is rigidly organized, one knows where everything is. Because it was designed to read like English, it is easy to understand even if there is no documentation. The first two high-level languages that were widely used were Fortran and COBOL--Fortran was mostly used by the sciences and COBOL was mostly used for business, and they were both awesome for the time that they were created. They beat the hell out of having to write something in assembly language or machine code. If someone wants to create a simple business program to say, handle timecards or payroll, COBOL is great for that because the code is very understandable, and the common routines for it were written decades ago.

Sure, a lot of things have changed since the 1980s. Computers have about a million times more memory and run about 100,000 times faster. The Windows 10 computer that I am typing on right now has more computing power than a thousand computers from the 1980s. I've learned lots of other languages besides Fortran and COBOL, like RPG, BASIC, Pascal, Assembly Language, Machine Code, C, C++, C#, Java, and on and on, and I've used a hundred different types of computers. It's all writing programming code on machines, and I have been able to do a lot with whatever language that I used on whatever machine that I used.

I don't judge people for the programming language they use. I judge them on their skill at getting things done with whatever language they are using. All code compiles or interprets to machine code, and every language that is quicker to type out is harder to read by someone who did not write the code. There are always tradeoffs.

When one is a memory typist, as I am, one does not care if COBOL makes one type a few more characters, and I would rather debug a rigid language like COBOL than someone's sloppy R, Python, or Javascript code. If Mary Poppins coded, she might choose COBOL. It is the "A place for everything, and everything in its place" language, and it reads so much like English that it is easy to modify. Arithmetic, Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, and Differenitial Equations are all way older than COBOL.

Yet, people still use them to do all kinds of amazing things. COBOL allowed me to create numeric and data strings in 12 dimensions like it was a piece of cake--in the 1980s--on machines that had 1% of the power most kid's cell phones have now. It was brilliantly put together and powerful as hell, and millions of people's parents and grandparents got proper paychecks because of it. Respect the brilliance and elegance that was, and is, COBOL.

SorellaLaBefana

(249 posts)
22. COBOL still runs many mission-critical mainframes
Sat Nov 12, 2022, 11:19 AM
Nov 2022
"COBOL is still very popular today in 2021. Depending on the source you’re looking at, there are still between 200 and 250 billion lines of COBOL code in production. Many large corporations, 70% in fact, still rely on COBOL for much of their mission critical work. Government, finance, insurance, automotive and banking industries are still heavy users. Roughly 43% of banking systems use COBOL and every time you swipe an ATM card, it executes COBOL code 95% of the time. There are 1.5 billion new lines of COBOL programmed each year."

https://techchannel.com/Enterprise/03/2021/business-systems-cobol]

This link very nicely starts with giving credit to Admiral Grace Hopper, one of the very earliest programmers and the person who (along with her team) developed COBOL. The team which she led also wrote the first complier. Brilliant!

As an undergraduate learned COBOL, Fortran-4 and some actual Machine Languages—which are not to be confounded with the user-friendly assembly languages used today (e.g. i86-ASM)

quaint

(3,635 posts)
23. Thanks for all of this.
Sat Nov 12, 2022, 11:34 AM
Nov 2022

I've not programmed for the past ten years, and I had no idea new COBOL code was being written. My natives are F-Level COBOL and PL1.

SouthernLiberal

(408 posts)
26. I was let go a long time ago
Thu Aug 3, 2023, 10:15 PM
Aug 2023

I forgotten almost every language I had to learn. Except for Cobol. And it's been a really long time.

Part of the problem with people who were just coming out of school right before I was pushed out, well, they understood what they had been taught

Things like the name used for a data field was meaningful. In the old systems, of course, they didn't

Had an argument once with a young bright guy, who was convinced that there could never object oriented programming on a mainframe. I eventually realized that he thought that the objects were real physical things that lived in the computer somehow. I think that I hurt him when I showed him that object oriented Cobol had been around for more than a decade

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