The online attitudes of quite a few "Progressive" white folks regarding dehumanizing language

[The Polack MSgt]

Last edited Wed May 16, 2018, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Has a curious almost Bipolar nature.

There is moral outrage and righteous energy in full glorious display while they condemn attacks and snide remarks directed at Melania Trump or John McCain or, well really any famous white person who have been held up to ridicule.

They appeal to our better nature.
They point to Democrats assumed position as holding the higher moral ground.
They admonish that we need to be better than our opponents - Note that description. Opponent. Not Enemy. Opponent.

But the online howling you hear becomes a background murmur or an occasional blandly calm rebuke when dehumanizing language is used about POC.
Literally dehumanizing language such as the thousands of Barrack Obama/monkey Michelle Obama/Ape statements are shrugged away.

Any story or thread here on a site that is supposed to cater to "Progressives" that addresses degrading treatment of Brown folks or LGBT or Muslims will be at best tepidly ignored or, more usually, explained away if possible and minimized at the very least.

So let's face it squarely and say this in plain English.

They only care about the dehumanization of people that they instinctively perceive as Human.

I believe that they have to remind themselves that POC are also Human, so the do not automatically raise to their defense.

Well, as long as I'm being honest and all... That is my theory regarding their behavior when I am in a generous mood.

Most of the time I just figure that they are racists. The kind of racists who usually try to hide that aspect OF themselves FROM themselves - You may know them as the "not racists"

[Squinch]

1. I'm confused. Who are the "they" you are saying are not percieving POC as human?

You seem to be saying that those who do not comment in some threads here are this "they" and the act of not commenting in threads here is the dehumanizing action. Is that what you are saying?

[The Polack MSgt]

4. I am saying that I believe

That a large percentage of white Americans if asked to picture humans will not include people who aren't white.

That the visceral reactions they have when faced with identical situations vary quite a bit depending on how much the attacked party looks like them.

I am saying that black people especially are not immediately recognized as human by many many white people.

Is that clear?

I am not saying that if you aren't strident enough on the proper threads that you are racist. That is silly

[Squinch]

8. Oh. Ok. I totally agree.

[quickesst]

18. I have a question...

..... Regarding your statement:

. "I am saying that I believe
That a large percentage of white Americans if asked to picture humans will not include people who aren't white."

Just curious as to what you believe would be the answer if a large percentage of black Americans were asked to picture humans, and whatever you believe, what would that say about them?

All I am saying is I think there may be a strong case for the argument that the "picture" could be one of familiarity as well as a sense of superiority. How do you decide where a person fits without any other evidence to strengthen that decision?

[The Polack MSgt]

19. Well let me answer this way

When are nonwhite folks allowed to forget the humanity of white people?

Shit cousin. There are more white folks on BET than blacks on NBC.

i believe that only white folks have the luxury to assume that other peoples lives are somehow similar to their own... That our experiance of life is the standard.

And worrying about nonwhites having a sense of superiority in America is laughable at best and suspicious in my eyes.

[quickesst]

20. Still didn't answer my question

Just curious as to what you believe would be the answer if a large percentage of black Americans were asked to picture humans, and whatever you believe, what would that say about them?

Answering the question by not answering the question is not answering the question.

Actually the only thing that made sense in your answer was the inference you made in the last sentence. That's okay. Go ahead if it makes you feel better. I ain't mad.

[The Polack MSgt]

21. I ain't buying this.

Actually the only thing that made sense in your answer was the inference you made in the last sentence. That's okay. Go ahead if it makes you feel better. I ain't mad.

I will not be baited.

U Mad Tho

[quickesst]

22. Haha

"And worrying about nonwhites having a sense of superiority in America is laughable at best and suspicious in my eyes."

If the last four words of your statement did not infer what I thought it inferred then I apologize. I'll let everyone else who is reading this come to their own conclusion.

I am not trying to bait you, but since you refuse to answer my simple question, I'll be satisfied with just dropping it. Later.... cousin.

[The Polack MSgt]

24. Ok I'm home now

So - Tell me how your questions do not amount to this:
You said an unflattering thing about white people, allow me to twist it so you have to admit that brown people are worse.

[quickesst]

31. Haha

"Ok I'm home now
So - Tell me how your questions do not amount to this:
You said an unflattering thing about white people, allow me to twist it so you have to admit that brown people are worse."

No.



Look, if you can't answer my question, you don't need to make excuses or run around the subject. Just say I can't answer your question. I'll let it go at that. Plus, you did not reply to the question of what you were inferring with the last four words of your last sentence in your last post. Never argue emotion against logic. You just can't win.

[heaven05]

36. this seems

like a hijack of a perfectly clear OP....what are you trying to prove? How many racist wypipo are there in ameriKKKa now. How deep does white supremacy flow in this river of hateful human beings? Hell, I pictured white when I grew up in the 50's-60's. When someone asked me then to picture some other person and draw them, school lesson, it wasn't Farina, it was Spanky. Not Amos or Andy. I had the Lone Ranger, Sky King, Pancho and Cisco, et al:.

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR AS AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUERY?

[quickesst]

42. That the OP....

..... is arguing a perfectly valid point, but using speculative, and unscientific methods to do so. I did not hijack anything. I simply asked a question which the op did not seem to have an answer for. One thing I have learned is that like matters of the heart, subjects that are ruled by emotion have no room for logic. I'll leave it at that.

[LanternWaste]

50. I'm looking for the peer-reviewed and objective sources in your arguments as well..

"using speculative, and unscientific methods to do so..."

I'm looking for the peer-reviewed and objective sources in your own arguments as well... and they appear not to exist. At all. In any form.

I get it... holding others to a higher standard than we hold ourselves to is both convenient and human nature. I'll leave it at that, part II.

[quickesst]

52. Out of respect...

.... for this group, and for JustAnotherGen, I will no longer reply to any posts concerning my original comment. If you feel the need to engage any further, feel free to PM me anytime. I will reply. Thank you.
quickesst

[The Polack MSgt]

25. Let's go through these one at a time

Last edited Wed May 16, 2018, 09:36 PM - Edit history (1)

you asked:
Just curious as to what you believe would be the answer if a large percentage of black Americans were asked to picture humans, and whatever you believe, what would that say about them?

Not Black.

Can't speak for them and I don't assume that I have some magic connection to their minds.

I am white and have dozens of white friends family and associates - So i can summarize the positions they keep trying to explain to me...

[quickesst]

32. I am also white.....

.... but I don't presume to know what they are thinking unless they tell me. I have no magic connection to their minds.
You presume to speak for a large number of people, most of whom you do not know. That is totally different than speaking for people you know and are familiar with who may have voiced their opinions to you.

[The Polack MSgt]

26. next up is this

All I am saying is I think there may be a strong case for the argument that the "picture" could be one of familiarity as well as a sense of superiority. How do you decide where a person fits without any other evidence to strengthen that decision?

So the folks with no power relative to the justice department, zoning commission, banks and licensing boards - those guys' picture of humanity somehow affects the lives of white folks?

We need to hold them to a standard that you are flat out refusing to accept for white folks?


NAH. Disagree

[quickesst]

33. You can be....

.... the most successful white person in the world, and not be a racist. The standard I hold for anyone is pretty much aligned with what Martin Luther King said. You know, something about the content of one's character and not the color of their skin.

My argument is purely logic-based, and I can tell that logic is not going to be a two-sided factor in this.

[The Polack MSgt]

27. So, in conclusion

If the last four words of your statement did not infer what I thought it inferred then I apologize. I'll let everyone else who is reading this come to their own conclusion.

I have no idea what you've inferred from what I implied

[quickesst]

34. Exactly what did you imply?

Name one thing in context that could be implied from those four words besides the one that I believe was implied. I'll wait.

[The Polack MSgt]

38. What is this?

You asked what I believed Black people envision when they think of humans and how their thoughts contrast with my OP's position that POC are not immediately included when many White people think of humans.

I said that I don't know but I doubted that it would be as restricted as what I believe white people think.

I said that most POC don't have the option to deny consciously or unconsciously the humanity of others. Mainly because very few can control the spaces they live in to the extent that we (WHITE FOLK) can. As an example I point out that main steam entertainment TV has fewer POC actors than Black Entertainment Television has white characters. With this satatement I am implying that the inclusion of non-POC people in a black focused program is a matter of course. Just a detail and not remarkable to the writers actors or audience.

On the other hand it is in no way remarkable to the writers actors or audience that shows on ABC CBS and NBC routinely have completely white casts and the plotlines focus on white people problems.

That was the implication I was making. That is what I implied. Again I have no idea what you inferred because I don't understand your follow up posts.

Then you argle bargle at me for a while saying I never answered your dumbass attempt to play false equivalence bingo...

And now I don't even understand WTF this post is saying.

[quickesst]

43. Well....

"And now I don't even understand WTF this post is saying."
I can't say I disagree with you. Look, I did not mean to cause such consternation in the beginning, and it seems I have extended this far beyond my original intent. I won't take up any more of your time.

[JustAnotherGen]

46. Thank you

I won't take up any more of your time.


Please step away from the group for a few more months. OPS in this group do not have to 'look at both' or ALL sides. That's for GD.

Thanks.

[quickesst]

48. you got it

I didn't even know I was in this group until the last few posts. Not very observant on my part. I do have opinions that may vary from the norm, but I will make sure that I confine them to General DIscussion. My apologies for any perceived transgressions.

[LanternWaste]

49. Your usage of 'inference' is inaccurate

"was the inference you made in the last sentence..."

'Implication', if anything. Your usage of 'inference' is inaccurate. Speaker/writer implies, listener/reader infers.

I'll refrain from adding the irrelevant petulance of "ignore it if it makes you feel better. I ain't mad..."

[JustAnotherGen]

2. This is beautiful and very much on point for me today

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Today I was appalled at the humanization of a woman (Melania) who deliberately and maliciously attacked President Obama.

Just because Michelle and Barack are polite and gracious (because it's WHO they are) to her face - doesn't mean they LIKE her.

Seriously.

Yet -they always had excuses or 'turn the other cheek' bullshit when our ENEMIES attacked first lady Obama as a monkey or an animal.


They always have excuses.


You know, I'm not even frustrated. But I hope they are beginning to realize why I like thinks like 'tax revenge'. It hurts people that think like them, and that's the truth.

[mcar]

10. Kind of goes along with the

"we better be nice to WWC Dotard voters or they'll never vote with us," while ignoring the party's base - AA women.

[ehrnst]

13. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[leftofcool]

29. +++++++++++++++++++++

[sheshe2]

11. +++

[ehrnst]

14. So well put. (nt)

[Quayblue]

30. Paternalism by proxy

Is what I call how you were treated in that thread.

They bring out MLK every time they think we are treating racist white people inappropriately, as if they deserve our respect.

Coddling racists gets people killed, plain and simple.

[JustAnotherGen]

39. Thanks you

I also saw how both Kwassa and Effie were treated - shameful behavior.

[Quayblue]

44. I just went back and read. +1000, shameful indeed nt

[heaven05]

37. yes, yes

so true.

[ck4829]

3. I'm white and I agree with you

I want to say that there is another aspect to dehumanization often overlooked and we see it it with these attitudes, and that is "superhumanization". Common examples are Asians are good at math, black people are natural athletes, violent white people are mentally ill but you never see it brought up with violent Muslims for some reason, and more.

And I see it here with progressives and the groups that honestly want to work with them, GLBTQ, the poor, minority religions, and yes, ethnic groups.

I see it with the call to take the high road, that these groups can put their immediate needs aside, to not participate in "identity politics", etc.

My fellow progressives have constructed this bar I guess to make themselves feel good, like hey, we're not winning elections but at least we're not stooping down. "We're sleeping well at night" I can't speak to the experience of a black person or a gay person, but i have my own issues... personal and loving relationships with marginalized groups and a nephew with a rare disease. The whole "We may not have a place at the table but at least we took the high road" has no meaning to me as I imagine it also has no meaning for all the marginalized Democrats out there.

We're calling on everyone to "be better" but you know what? We're all human, we can crack jokes, we should be vulgar not all the time and not to an extreme but it shouldn't be a cardinal sin, there needs to be a place where the "stiff upper lip" that the marginalized have to keep apparently in response to dehumanization can be dropped, and more.

We need to rehumanize the groups the far right wants to dehumanize and sometimes that means being just like everyone else.

[JustAnotherGen]

5. Yes on all of it!

ETA -

Common examples are Asians are good at math, black people are natural athletes, violent white people are mentally ill but you never see it brought up with violent Muslims for some reason, and more.

That 'super human' powers thing does far more HARM than good.

[The Polack MSgt]

6. "and sometimes that means being just like everyone else."

That seems to be a sticking point.

[Quayblue]

45. I had an Asian buddy check me about 15 years ago

About the smart Asian stereotype. His face was so distressed. He was really hurt by my words. I apologized, I don't know if he accepted it and I deserve it if he didn't. I still think about what I did from time to time. He probably is still hearing the same bullshit (we were shipmates) but I'm glad he said something to me.

Thanks for this poignant post.

[JustAnotherGen]

47. My friend Eric

'checked' me on my love of Breakfast At Tiffanys.


I'm an Audrey Hepburn fan until the day I die - but I will never watch that movie again. Eric was right - I don't care if the man who played the Asian character regretted it or not -

It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

[MrScorpio]

7. Folks who are quicker to condemn Democrats than they are people on the right

Folks like that have always been problematic, especially on DU from time to time.

And then a funny thing happens: The find themselves removed, by voluntary means or not, and they end up in other locations on the net where they believe that they're "free to speak their minds." Which usually ends up being some seriously racist shit.

Some of these same folks have been instrumental in removing some of the strongest voices for equality here, many of these people who are POCs themselves, who have recognized and confronted these same "free minders."

In the end, we find ourselves weaker and less capable of being a voice for equality. The fact that DU has fewer POC voices is no accident.

It's an old story.

So yeah, I'm quite suspicious of people who are one sided in their castigation of "harsh" language. Whenever they come after me, I welcome it.

[ehrnst]

15. Threads full of them right now... (nt)

[mcar]

9. K&R

[sheshe2]

12. K&R

[ehrnst]

16. Alternately, not "misogynists" who are concerned that a lady comedian

hurt "working mom" Sarah Huckabee's state of mind with her comments about eyeliner.

"My god, people! This is why we're alienating the Trump voters! You are NOT HELPING!!!!! Michelle Obama and MLK would be HORRIFIED at the violence that the lady comedian committed with her mean words!"

[The Polack MSgt]

17. Outstanding

It's the same internalized "I'm a good person ergo people like me are good. People different than me are not" attitude.

[Me.]

23. Jokes Are The Last Thing SHS Has To Worry About

[kwassa]

28. Excellent OP. Great observations.

all about implicit bias.

[heaven05]

35. ameriKKKa

is schizophrenic. Proof: From President Barack Obama and a truly beautiful First Family to the present potus and his family. Dehumanization started with pre-slavery hate of POC, 'Before the Mayflower', Lerone Bennett, 'Destruction of Black Civilization', Chancellor Williams.

As far as my personal experience in life goes, you are correct. A black person being killed by a racist cop or offended by a racist spewing hatred from their toxic minds are shrugged away with, well he had or probably has a police record or he should not have been selling those cigarettes on the street. That child should not have been playing with that type toy, that child was shot within 2 seconds of chickenshit police arriving, that black man in Walmart should not have been buying that toy gun for a relative, shot within 5 seconds of the arrival of chickenshit cops. The woman who was hung in her cell should have fallen to her knees and kissed that cops ass that eventually caused her to be hung in her cell.

Always a way is found to blame the UNARMED black victim for not recognizing the superiority or authority of a particular race. That kid in Florida should have stopped when that wannabe cop told him he was in the wrong neighbourhood, the kid lived there and on and on. I read excuse after excuse after these murder/executions of AA.

Your antagonist in this thread seems to be a master of diversion/distraction. It is a common ploy here of the people you are addressing in this OP who consistently try to hijack a thread with bullshit.

Hey, we're tough and you are a survivor. The fight continues

[The Polack MSgt]

40. Yeah, woke up to a bunch of replies

That I can't say much impressed me.

wrote a response over my 1st coffee, hope you like it.

[heaven05]

41. yes, clear concise

inescapable. Some people just don't get it. We can see what they deny or refuse to see in themselves, I guess.

[Anon-C]

51. Thank you so much, MasterSGT. Nt