How do you all go about getting a good critical reader for a completed novel?

[Squinch]

An agent suggested some changes in the first 100 pages, and told me to send it back to her if I chose to follow her suggestions. They were great suggestions, so I did, but I don't want to send it back until I have had someone with some experience really rip the rest of the manuscript apart.

Family and friends are no help. I am grateful that they are positive, but right now, what it needs is some real criticism.

Where do you find such a person?

[CherokeeDem]

1. Short of paying for the help....

it's hard to find someone qualified. I've been very lucky; one of my friends is a linguist, and she has been a wonderful help with grammar and structure. Two other friends were both in the Navy and did PR work, one actually wrote for a Naval publication. And fortunately, they are honest with me if they feel I need to make changes in how I structured something or if something doesn't make sense.

I also joined a local fiction writers group with several published authors, poets, and playwrights as members. I haven't been attending meetings for long, but they were a real help in getting my query letter in better shape. The letter still needs work but their suggestions really helped me focus.

Perhaps checking with a local college or bookstore might yield someone who would be willing to either review your manuscript for free or charge a nominal fee.

I'm not as far along as you are, but I'm as much in the dark as you are about where to turn. However, congratulations on getting an agent interested in your work. Good luck!!!

[Squinch]

2. I tried the only local fiction

group around and they are closed. I guess I'll have to go a little farther afield to find one.

The bookstore and local colleges are a good idea. I will hunt that down.

I am going to a Christmas party at which there might be a friend of a friend who is a published author, so if I find any new insights I will let you know.

The letter is a completely different kind of writing than the novel itself. I used to write advertising in my previous career, so I was able to put a letter together that another agent, who rejected the book, said caught her interest, so I figure it's working. It seems a little weird that getting a novel read depends on being able to write a letter in a way that is almost the opposite of good fiction writing.

Thank you for your congratulations. It's kind of a limbo, though. I really don't want to have this agent get the next 100 pages and go, "pfffft."

Do you find it a little terrifying when you submit to anyone? I always heard people say it was like sending your child out into the world, and I thought they were just being dramatic. But it is pretty emotional.

Good luck back to you. Keep me posted on your progress! Thanks for the suggestions.

[CherokeeDem]

3. So true!!!

It seems a little weird that getting a novel read depends on being able to write a letter in a way that is almost the opposite of good fiction writing.

I couldn't agree more.

The hardest writing I have attempted is this stupid query letter. I've written copy for advertising as well, and I find that much easier. I was so nervous about reading my letter to the writing group; one member is an actor and playwright, who is currently writing a play about Nazi Germany. I'm writing a sci-fi novel, a murder mystery set in the future. There is literature and then there is literature. But they were kind, gave me suggestions, loved my hook line and told me to write about the character and not the plot. So hard to do when you are wrapped up in the story.

As for submitting my work to an agent? I'm petrified... I think I'll be okay with rejection, but then it hasn't happened yet!

Maybe you could start a fiction writer's group... even if it's just a couple of you. It really helps to have someone to talk to about writing in general.

Keep me posted as well!

[Squinch]

6. I did everything I could to take the emotion out of the agent submissions.

I made a spreadsheet of agents, with the "dream agents who will never give me the time of day" at the top and working my way down. I figured I would send to those dream agents first so I never ran into the unlikely problem of talking to an agent when a more desirable one expressed interest (I'm a VERY optimistic person!) Then I just made a schedule to send out to four agents every 6 weeks.

But then this one expressed interest and I've been doing the revisions. I want to chase her reaction down to the end -either acceptance or rejection - before I move on.

Rejection is actually a good sign. In my first batch, I didn't hear a peep!

How are you doing with the 2 page synopsis? Did your writer's group give you any pointers about that? I've read that you should put lots of voice into it, and I've read that you need to take all voice out of it, and all kinds of other conflicting stuff.

The small writer's group would be ideal. Now to find two or three local writers...I think that is where your suggestion of the local colleges comes in.

[mainer]

5. I always advise people to study flap copy

for a good idea of what a query letter should look like. It's all about tempting people to read your story.

[Sanity Claws]

26. I have a friend who edits books on a freelance

Basis. I could ask her what she suggests. It will probably involve payment for the services. Let me know if you are interested.

[Squinch]

8. So I have found two local writers groups (YAY!) only to learn that they are both

closed (BOO!).

So tonight I am braving the cold to go to a drop-in writer's group in a large local library to see if I can put together a group of 3 or 4 people who are serious about this and whose areas of expertise can complement mine. Wish me luck!

Who knew finding people to rip my manuscript to shreds would be so hard?

Is your query letter done?

[CherokeeDem]

10. Good luck... hope you stay warm tonight!

Love this line... couldn't agree more!!!

Who knew finding people to rip my manuscript to shreds would be so hard?

Had a family emergency, so I am just now getting back to my letter. I'm almost okay with it where it is... but then, I'll probably never be completely okay with it!

Hope you have luck finding some kindred souls the drop-in writers group, we need all the support we can get. Let me know how it goes.

[SheilaT]

4. This is a huge problem.

I understand, because I have no one in my life to look at my writing, nor anyone to discuss writing issues with.

My one suggestion is that you get back to the agent for some more specific feedback.

Beyond that, are there any good writers' conferences in your area?

I sincerely wish you the best.

[Squinch]

7. Thank you for your wishes. And the same back to you!

I will be going back to the agent, as soon as I feel like an objective eye has seen the rest of the manuscript.

It is hard to find people. And somehow, the net doesn't seem adequate. I want to see people's reactions when I am talking to them about this.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. Send it back to her right away!

With a cover letter saying that you liked her suggestions and changed the ms. accordingly.

At this point, if you make other changes in addition -- based on the opinion of others -- you will mess up your chances with this agent.

[Squinch]

11. Really? This is what I need to know!

Even if she only saw the first 100 pages?

SO it's more important to get it back in a timely way? I am fearful that I have some structural problems. Send it anyway?

And how would you suggest I handle this problem: I made all the changes she suggested that I was able to make, given subsequent plot developments. There were two suggestions that I just couldn't follow because of what happens later in the story. Should I point that out to her?

[DavidDvorkin]

12. Hmm. I had assumed she saw the whole thing.

I'm sticking with my original advice, though. Having an agent ask to see the ms. again after changes she requested have been made is a very big step forward. The situation is hot, and you can't afford to let it cool down. She sees promise in what she's read and in your writing. She'll be pleased that you are willing to make changes to (in her opinion) improve the ms.

My advice is to send it back to her with the changes but with a note explaining why the two suggestions can't be followed -- because of later plot developments.

Of course there's no guarantee of anything. But now there's reason to hope that she'll ask to see the entire ms.

[Squinch]

13. Thank you!

I am such a rank amateur at this stuff, I have no base to make decisions from. I suppose, though, that's the healthy part of trying something new.

[DavidDvorkin]

14. You're welcome

Good luck with this.

[Squinch]

15. I'll post back if there are any developments.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

16. I once tried reading someone else's manuscript novel because he could not find a publisher

And wanted to know why. Well, I told him exactly why: He was extremely wordy, he had an unerring feel for the cliché, and often he used the wrong word. I took a single paragraph from the middle of his novel and edited it; explaining exactly why I was making each change. Quite simply, it was very poorly written.

Well, you would think I had suggested we go out for a session of pederasty. He took my criticisms as if they were personal insults: How dare I suggest that his prose was not sublime.

I have not spoken to him since. AFAIK, he still has not found a publisher.

[SheilaT]

17. And the scary thing is that people like him

then turn to self publishing, assuming they are unsung geniuses who, once they get their work out, will be acclaimed as the literary stars they think they are.

Every time someone happily tells me that I can (and should) easily self-publish, I point out as gently as I can, that there's a reason for the gatekeepers. In the past I have occasionally bought something that was self published and always regretted it.

Unfortunately, too many "writers" cannot begin to understand that there really is a reason they are not yet published. I do suggest to all who hope to be published writers, to start attending writers conferences. The good ones have a lot to offer.

[DavidDvorkin]

18. Aargh. Not that anti-self-publishing nonsense again.

I assure you that a lot of fine novels are self-published. The reasons are many, but some of them could not find a traditional publishers. The gatekeepers don't always know what they're doing.

[SheilaT]

19. David,

I know you and respect you, but in my personal experience I'm yet to come across a first novel that is self-published that was worth reading. Too many who go that route haven't a clue how to self-edit.

[DavidDvorkin]

20. I'll point to my own last few books

And those of our clients edited by my wife. The editing they required ranged from light to heavy, just as with books published by traditional publishers.

[DavidDvorkin]

21. I should add

that the gatekeepers at commercial publishers aren't in the business of judging literary merit. Their job is to judge commercial potential.

As a result, some good books are not published and many bad ones are. But that's "good" and "bad" from my point of view. From the viewpoint of the beancounters at the publishers -- the people who really count -- "good" = sold lots of copies and "bad" = sold few copies.

Many badly written books are self-published, but so are many well written books that traditional publishers are not interested in because they judge the books' commercial potential to be too small.

[SheilaT]

22. The point is, you know enough to get professional editing.

Too many who race to self publish don't.

[DavidDvorkin]

23. Sure, but many do

And the result is good books.

Actually, I don't get professional editing. My wife and I proofread each other's stuff and occasionally make suggestions, but that's as far as it goes for the two of us. We can hardly be the only ones who write competently and self-publish.

[SheilaT]

24. You are probably not the only ones.

But you were already published and had lots of experience in the kind of editing and proofreading needed. It's the first time authors that I'm talking about.

[Liberty Belle]

25. I've done this for pay and helped others get published,

in fiction and nonfiction. Also published a novel, novelette, and nonfiction under my own byline.

Hubby just got laid off so I'm back in the market for extra work. If you can't find help free, pm me. I can look at the pages and give you an estimate, and would also want to see the agent's suggestions.

I've won over 250 writing awards, too, and judged national writing competitions in fiction and journalism.