All religion is opinion.

[MineralMan]

One either has an opinion about it or adopts the opinions of others. Often, it is impossible to choose among others' opinions. Then, one has just a diffuse collection of beliefs with no center. Many fall into that category.

Of course, some have the opinion that all religion is false and mere bunkum. I'm in that group. That is my opinion, derived from a lifetime of thought.

[guillaumeb]

1. And my opinion,

also derived from a lifetime of thought, is that you are incorrect.

[MineralMan]

2. OK. Tell me what you believe, then.

What are your beliefs?

[guillaumeb]

5. This post is about your own opinion.

My beliefs are a part of my many posts here. I see no point in recapitulating them here at any length and thus derailing your post.

[Major Nikon]

10. You believe you are simultaneously a theist and a deist

Kinda funny, that one, which makes your opinion that anyone else is wrong on the subject not worth much.

Just sayin'

[guillaumeb]

18. You really should confine your responses to the gifs that so fascinate you.

[Major Nikon]

28. Yet another opinion that isn't worth much

Coming from someone whose best is canned replies.

[MineralMan]

25. Which of us reveals in every post that the post is an opinion, Guy?

See my signature line, once again. I do not pretend otherwise. All posts written by me are my opinion. If I quote someone else's words, I indicate that very clearly and provide a link. Otherwise I am openly posting my opinion, as I say at the bottom of each and every post.

What are your posts?

[rurallib]

3. yep - opinions that become stories, then myths then peddled as "truth"

with not a whit of evidence

[vlyons]

4. Let me give you a little clue

Everything you think about everything is an opinion. All your opinions fall into one of 3 categories: pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. All you can ever really know is your own individual experience.

[guillaumeb]

6. Well said.

And that individual experience, that life philosophy, proves nothing except that it is an opinion.

[Voltaire2]

11. So you are an idealist and reject the idea

that there is a common physical reality that we can as a society build a shared knowledge about its properties?

[vlyons]

16. Actually I consider myself a sketic

Epistomology is that branch of philosophy that deals with how we know what we know. And psychology is that science that deals with how the mind works. I adhere to the Buddhist teachings on the nature of mind and the creation of sense of self. It took me many years to understand Buddhist teachings on emptiness. But basically "emptiness" means that phenomena are void of existing in impossible ways. Yes there is phenomena, stuff, that exists "out there." Stump your toe, and you'll immediately discover that there's stuff "out there." The conventional way of thinking about phenomena is that stuff exists as independent and self-existent. But actually all phenomena arise from previous causes and conditions. Moreover all compound things are impermanent. The opinions (good, bad, pretty, ugly, big, little, etc etc) that we impute onto phenomena are not actually part of the phenomena. For example, which is long?

This: ======
or this ==========

Now which is long"

This: ======
or this ==========
or this ==============

I give you the example of the really good cake. A woman goes to the store and buys the ingredients to bake a cake. Comes home, pours the ingredients into a bowl, mixes it up, pours the batter into a baking pan, bakes it in the oven. When done, assembles and ices the layers. Then serves cake pieces to her guest, who exclaims that it's a really good cake. But actually there is no goodness in the cake. If there was "good" in the cake, it would have been as if the baker had bought a bottle of "good" at the store and pored it into the cake batter. The experience of good is not in the cake, it's in the person experiencing the cake.

If you want to understand Buddhist teachings on emptiness, that things are void of existing in impossible ways, you have to understand the 5 skandas: Form, feelings, perception, mental formations, and consciousness. We humans put the 5 skandas together and call them "I."

You don't have to agree with any of the above.

[MineralMan]

20. The Buddhist world view is interesting, no doubt.

As a philosophical way of looking at things and even existence, it is one way to focus the mind on such questions. It is not, however, the only way, nor necessarily the correct way. It is simply a way.

I can easily follow Buddhism's approaches to their logical conclusions, and have. However, I came to the conclusion that using the mind alone as a way of understanding does not cover all of the ground I want to cover. If one seeks emptiness and the void, then it is a good path to that understanding.

It is not, however, suitable for all persons. It looks internally, rather than externally. I find more satisfaction in looking outward, rather than inward. Since I am the one looking, my path goes in a different way.

[Voltaire2]

24. Skepticism and idealism are not mutually exclusive.

You appear to be a skeptical Buddhist idealist. Other skepics can be empirical materialists. We think there is a common physical reality that we can imperfectly perceive through our senses and that we can understand through a cooperative process with other humans using rigorous evidence based reasoning.

I have no idea what point you were trying to make with your “longer” example. You do understand that that word describes a property of an object relative to other objects, right?

[qazplm135]

39. how much imperfection

before reality stops being real?

I think reality is probably real. I can't really know it though, but life operates most smoothly for me if I just go with it being so.

[Voltaire2]

59. Try walking through a wall.

[qazplm135]

61. My Sims

never walk through walls either.

[MineralMan]

14. Opinions can be based on demonstrably factual information or

on ancient stories and hopes. I prefer the former, I must say. I form my opinions based on evidence of real things in a real universe.

[vlyons]

17. agree

nt

[guillaumeb]

19. Your opinion depends on what you accept as evidence.

And if you have an opinion, you might reject evidence that contradicts your opinion.

And given that you have no idea how many real things exist in the universe, your opinion is based on your own experience, and your ability to understand what you experience.

[MineralMan]

21. Yes, and so? Evidence is factual information. If it contradicts my opinion,

I re-examine my opinion, Guy. But, only after confirming that evidence as factual, objectively, as best I am able to do so.

You are quick to tell people what they think, but reluctant to tell what you think. You blithely proclaim what you think I know or what I have experienced, but reveal little about your own knowledge and experiences.

Based on what I have seen, you are not a fount of knowledge. You rarely, if ever, present evidence of anything. You are, however, a deep, deep well of opinion about things. The two are not the same.

[guillaumeb]

22. Your reponse is a mischaracterization of what I actually said.

I merely pointed out the obvious weakness of you stating an opinion when your opinion is so limited.

And your final paragraph well describes yourself, and your style of posting in religion.

And your claim of re-examination is limited, as you admitted, by your ability to recognize fact and reality.

[MineralMan]

23. Also sprach guillaumeb?

Eso me hace reir.

The Spanish translated into one of your languages: "C'est pour rire."

[bitterross]

26. "...How Many Real Things Exist.."

And given that you have no idea how many real things exist in the universe, your opinion is based on your own experience, and your ability to understand what you experience.

While this is a very true statement it has the obvious flaw of not admitting so many people are inventing unreal things that do not exist in the universe in which they choose to believe.


Do not ask me to prove your god or anyone's god does not exist. The burden of proof rests with you to prove they do exist.

I will ask of you no less rigorous proof than I would of anyone who believes in any god -modern or ancient. To me and other atheists ALL religion is made up beliefs and, opinions, as the OP states.

[marylandblue]

33. This is really the sort of fuzzy thinking that you are rightly criticized for

It's simply a form of extreme skepticism towards opinions you don't like, so that you can keep opinions you do like without any justification whatsoever.

[guillaumeb]

35. Like has nothing to do with it.

Unprovable opinions are just that. No matter which side of the theist/non-theist argument, they are unprovable.

[marylandblue]

36. What makes something an unprovable opinion rather than provable?

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2018, 11:24 PM - Edit history (2)

I am asking for a definition, not examples of opinions, and also not a request that you ask me to prove something.

[guillaumeb]

41. Something that is provable needs no opinion.

Any belief that is not provable is an expression of belief, or opinion.

[marylandblue]

42. Okay, now please define proof

Because we may disagree on what constitutes proof or what makes something provable.

[guillaumeb]

43. Does water freeze at 0 centigrade?

That is provably correct.

Does a god exist, or not exist? Any answer is an opinion based on an unprovable belief.

[marylandblue]

44. Alright, my previous condition applies

A definition, please. Not examples or a request to prove something.

[guillaumeb]

45. That was my definition. It seems quite clear to me.

What did you understand, or not understand, by it?

[marylandblue]

46. Does water freeze at 0? and does God exist? are both examples.

[guillaumeb]

47. One is provable, and opinion does not apply.

The other is unprovable and requires opinion.

[marylandblue]

48. I am asking you to provide a definition of proof

Not an reassertion of your assertion that something is provable because it is not a matter of opinion, and it is not a matter of opinion because it is provable.

[guillaumeb]

49. Proof has many definitions.

Legal proof is different from scientific proof.

But in the most basic sense, if a thing can be seen, that proves that it exists. I can prove that my keyboard exists because I am typing on it.

[marylandblue]

50. There are different types and levels of proof, but what do they all have in common

if anything. If you don't have a definition of proof, the you can't make a meaningful assertion about whether something is provable or not.

[guillaumeb]

51. Can it be seen?

Can it be measured?

Can it affect things around it?

[marylandblue]

52. So you consider scientific proof to be the only form of proof?

You mentioned legal proof, but law can't be seen or measured and it might not affect anything.

[guillaumeb]

53. It is physical proof.

And as I stated, there are many types of proof.

[marylandblue]

54. It's an example of proof. Do you have a definition

that doesn't depend on an example?

[guillaumeb]

55. No.

Belief in a deity is unprovable. I see no real need to revisit this statement. Have a nice night.

[marylandblue]

57. So without a definition, the statement

"belief in a deity is unprovable" is as meaningless as "belief in a deity is covfefe."

Good night.

[marylandblue]

7. Opinion is another word that has multiple meanings

And much confusion arises when it is used in different ways by different people in the same conversation.

[MineralMan]

15. That is true. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary's Entry

The key words in the first definition are "not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." One can have an opinion based on no information at all, false information, or without even thinking. However, it can also be based on solid, repeatable evidence, in which case it is far more reliable.

opinion
NOUN
1A view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

‘that, in my opinion, is right’
‘the area's residents share vociferous opinions about the future’

1.1mass noun The beliefs or views of a group or majority of people.
‘the changing climate of opinion’

1.2 An estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.
‘I had a higher opinion of myself than I deserved’

2A statement of advice by an expert on a professional matter.

‘if in doubt, get a second opinion’

2.1Law A barrister's advice on the merits of a case.
‘the solicitor took counsel's opinion’

2.2Law A formal statement of reasons for a judgement given.
‘a dissenting opinion adjudged that the government had the right to protect ‘the symbolic value of the flag’’

[marylandblue]

29. Some people say opinions are all equal

My opinion that the earth is flat is just as good as your opinion that it is round. I don't even have to tell you why I think it is flat because you can't prove to me that it isn't. You can only prove it to yourself.

Some regard this a great virtue of opinions since everyone gets to be right.

[MineralMan]

30. I would never say that. Only my opinions are correct.

All others are weakly considered and false.

[KCDebbie]

8. All religions are opinion AND behavior control...

[LakeArenal]

9. A lifetime of thought and science.

[Voltaire2]

12. Not all opinions are equal.

first there is the quality of the expression of that opinion.

But more importantly opinions based on evidence that can be verified have a higher quality than other opinions. “That is a cat” has a higher quality than “I believe cats are gods”.

[MineralMan]

13. I agree. Also, being able to explain one's opinion counts, too.

Fuzzy, partial opinions are light in weight, it seems to me.

[bitterross]

27. I agree with you. Even we Atheists adopt opinions.

I know that once I began questioning the religion into which I was born and initially indoctrinated I looked for the opinions of others. I went to the library (before the internet and google) and read. Probably not odd at all, my reading was in the Science Fiction section more than in philosophy. Authors in Science Fiction have long been presenting an alternative view of the universe unencumbered by a God or viciously ruled by malevolent ones in order to make people think.

Harlan Ellison's short-story "The Deathbird" in his compilation A Pantheon of Modern Gods really changed the way I thought as a teenager. The story positions the Serpent in the Garden of Eden as the protagonist.

These days I read Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins and others. So, yes, your thesis is correct for religion and atheists. The difference is the factual basis rather than faith for the opinion.

[Yuorik57]

31. ???

What exactly is the factual basis for atheism? How is disbelief more credible than belief?

The point is you do not know whether God exists or not yet you insist that people who disbelieve have more credibility than those who believe. People of faith would argue that they are influenced by their belief in God, that their faith makes them better people and that they can feel the presence of God in prayer and in his creation


Me, I am just an asshole agnostic from NY who wishes he had faith but somehow can't achieve it.

[MineralMan]

32. Atheism is the default state.

None of us are born believing in some religion. That's a learned behavior. We're all natural-born atheists. Atheism requires no "factual basis." It is merely the absence of belief in deities.

[Raven123]

60. We are also born unable to walk, talk, feed ourselves.

We are neurologically immature. Belief or lack thereof requires a certain degree of cognitive function. People raised among theists may become atheists and those raised among atheists may become theists. I don’t think it is simple learning.

[marylandblue]

34. I am an agnostic too, but

Being a better person because of faith doesn't really prove anything. There are people who became better people after becoming atheists, for example, becoming less judgemental about people who don't agree with them.

"Feeling the presence of God" is one of the reasons I am agnostic. I have felt the presence of God, but think most likely it's a brain illusion, even if it feels very strong and wonderful. Possibly it is more than that. But even so, that's just a subjective proof that doesn't meet the usual standards for any kind of real proof.

[Iggo]

37. It appears that there is no god.

There is no god.

No god is there.

No god is over here, either.

No god is in there, on top of this, over there, under that.

No god is there.

Everywhere we look. Every time, ever.

No god.

[Act_of_Reparation]

38. What is the factual basis for disbelieving in vampires?

Good chat. Take care.

[Mariana]

40. Well, why do you disbelieve?

Disbelief must be more credible than belief to you. Otherwise, you would believe, wouldn't you?

You say you wish you had faith but somehow can't achieve it. I have two questions for you:

1. Faith in what, exactly? Please be specific.
2. Why do you want to have faith in it?

[Raven123]

56. I thought belief was synonomous with opinion. Of course that is just my opinion - or maybe belief.

[marylandblue]

58. They can be synonymous, but not always

I believe in the theory of evolution is a statement of fact, not opinion.