Many religions, and Christianity in particular, speak of a deity as

[MineralMan]

a real thing that exists. Christianity claims that its deity appeared on Earth in human form, died, and ascended into Heaven. They claim that their "savior" still lives and is part of their lives.

And yet, no human can see a deity. Even Moses, the patriarch of Judaism and Christianity, claimed to only have seen God's hind parts. But, that's written in very, very old writings, and can't be supported by evidence.

Nobody has seen any deities. Nobody can present any evidence of their existence. Still, many religious speak of their deity or deities as though they were real and present. For many people, that is simply not adequate information to demonstrate that any deities exist. So, they do not believe such entities exist at all and are simply figures of mythology. Many of those people would gladly believe that a deity exists if they were presented with even a little tangible evidence.

Instead, what is presented is something called "faith." That is the evidence we are expected to take as proof. Faith, which is defined in one scripture as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." In other words, evidence of nothing at all. So, we do not believe. We cannot believe.

[Brainstormy]

1. uh. Moses

didn't exist either.

[MineralMan]

2. Yes, I suppose not. Not Adam nor Eve, either.

Campfire stories, told to the children of a tribe of itinerant goat and sheep herders, as an attempt to explain something or another.

[Brainstormy]

4. nor Abraham

Fictional father of the three "Abrahamic" religions.

[marylandblue]

11. It's possible Moses and Abraham existed

Strip out the miraculous elements and unbelievable elements and you have a kernel that might have happened, but was unlikely to leave a contemporary record.

[edhopper]

19. There were no Jewish slaves

in Egypt.
Moses is derived from a Babylonian myth.

Not even the germ of a kernal.

[marylandblue]

21. Part of the Moses story was based on the Story of Sargon of Akkad.

The rest we don't know where it came from. There is no parallel Bronze Age story of escaping slaves. Even if there were, slave escapes are not unusual in world history.

Not sure what you mean by "there were no Jewish slaves in Egypt." Nobody was called "a Jew" until about 1,000 years later. So of course there were no Jewish slaves. There may have been a Semitic people called Israelites or Hebrews.

There were Semitic people in Egypt. There were slaves in Egypt. Some slaves were war captives, so there could have been Semitic slaves in Egypt. There could have been someone named Moses who escaped captivity with a small group of slaves. The escaping slaves may or may not have been Semitic. They could have joined with Semitic deserts nomads. Some of these nomads may have latter settled in Canaan, though probably not through conquest as described in Joshua.

Lots of "could haves" which is my point. The information is lacking. Unless you know something I don't about a story of Bronze Age escaping slaves.

[edhopper]

22. the portrayal of slavery in Egypt in the Penteteuch

in no way resembles the slavery we know from Egyptian acheology.

The Moses story is obviously about Babylonian slavery, which is the period for which it was written.

Your could ofs in the face of a complete lack of evidence makes the Exodus story most likely pure mythology.

I meant the description of the people in the Bible by no Jewish people.

[marylandblue]

23. In what way does the portrayal of slavery in the Bible

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2018, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

resemble Babylonian rather than Egyptian slavery? Also, even it does have that Babylonian slavery description why could not be a Babylonian addition to a earlier version of the story, given that the version we have was actually put in final form in Babylonia?

[edhopper]

24. We are getting into some wide ranging archeology now

which I don't have time to research and link.

I think though, that we agree that the story of the Exodus, as presented in the Bible, is pure mythology.

And that this Moses and his story are fictional.

[marylandblue]

25. Yes it is wide ranging archeology

And from what I understand, there is not uniform agreement among scholars as to where these stories came from and how old they really are.

The stories as we have them are myth. I just think we can't completely dismiss the possibility that some parts of the myth have their basis in actual events that were unlikely to leave an archeological trace.

One thing I think about lot is that we actually know very little of ancient history. 99% of ancient writings and artifacts are lost forever.

[edhopper]

35. We must also remember how much of the early Bible stories

were co-opted from other cultures and not part of any history they might have had.

[Major Nikon]

18. We are told it's all "metaphorical"

Except when the purveyor of this notion decides it should be literal. Funny how that works.

[live2011]

3. Blind man's bluff: "I believe it because I can't see it."

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Hold on a second...

My cat is a goddess and makes sure I know it.

[MineralMan]

6. Can you see and touch your cat? Then it is real, and must

be given flesh offerings and worshiped. Either that or picked up by the scruff of the neck and dropped casually off the desk onto the floor. I can never tell which I should do with my cat goddess.

[Major Nikon]

20. There's a reason

[Butterflylady]

7. That's exactly what my grandmother said

when I asked her about Adam and Eve's sons. If they were the only people in the beginning, where did their 2 sons wives come from. And the answer was, " you got to have faith." That's when I knew it was all a bunch of bull. I was only 7 at that the time.

[MineralMan]

8. Very astute of you as a child.

It took me longer than that.

[Brainstormy]

15. whole earth populated by one incestuous family

Twice!

[DemocracyMouse]

9. This fixation on a deity distracts us from the actual profundity and Mystery of nature

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2018, 01:23 PM - Edit history (1)

All formalized religions obliterate God.

Silly simians.

[MineralMan]

10. "Produndity" - I like that. It evokes the word "dunce" for me.

Still, you're correct. Reality is far more awesome than any human-created deity. Its depths can never be measured by humans.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

12. "Nobody has seen any deities "

I notice an increasing trend toward people who claim to talk to God/Jesus, however. As well as I big increase in people who tend to speak as if they were themselves preachers.

[Cartoonist]

13. Our Lady of Fatima

Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Our Lady of (fill in the blank)

Claims are made and believed. I know it's bunk, but I wouldn't say that out loud on a street corner in Guadalupe

[MineralMan]

16. Oh, for pete's sake! All sorts of people see visions.

People see Jesus in tree knots, too. Why does anyone listen to people with delusions.

Our lady of Lourdes? Give me a freaking break.

[Ron Obvious]

14. People talking to God

Whenever I encounter someone who claims to talk to God, I usually answer with some version of Hotspur's reply:

Glendower:
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur:
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?

Henry The Fourth, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58

[MineralMan]

17. Henry IV Part 1 is my favorite Shakespeare play of all time.

It describes human nature so perfectly that it is the very model of such plays.

Thanks for the reminder.

[cilla4progress]

26. Recently spent some time in

Some French cathedrals.

Was struck by how much of their history revolves around visions!

Including Joan of Arc.

Unprovable!

[MineralMan]

27. Mysticism and Visions Have a Long History in the Catholic Church.

They are closely related. Belief that visions are more than hallucinations is part of RCC Doctrine. Here's an except from this link:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15477a.htm

Corporeal vision
Corporeal vision is a supernatural manifestation of an object to the eyes of the body. It may take place in two ways: either a figure really present strikes the retina and there determines the physical phenomenon of the vision, or an agent superior to man directly modifies the visual organ and produces in the composite a sensation equivalent to that which an external object would produce. According to the authorities the first is the usual manner; it corresponds to the invincible belief of the seer, e.g. Bernadette at Lourdes; it implies a minimum of miraculous intervention if the vision is prolonged or if it is common to several persons. But the presence of an external figure may be understood in two ways. Sometimes the very substance of the being or the person will be presented; sometimes it will be merely an appearance consisting in a certain arrangement of luminous rays. The first may be true of living persons and even, it would seem, of the now glorious bodies of Christ and the Blessed Virgin, which by the eminently probable supernatural phenomenon of multilocation may become present to men without leaving the abode of glory. The second is realized in the corporeal apparition of the unresurrected dead or of pure spirits.

The short explanation of how these "corporeal visions" occur is: "God Did It!" Like so many parts of religious doctrine, what is not explainable through natural phenomena is explained by references to God. A great deal of language is used to mask the true "corpounreal" nature of such visions. The expectation is that the reader will accept the supernatural, god-caused reason for such visions.

The Catholic Encyclopedia I linked to above is a rich source of exhaustive, imaginative, verbose, and erudite explanations of what is not so. I encourage people to consult it to discover just how far removed from reality Catholic doctrine truly is. And people actually believe this nonsense, or claim to believe it.

[Locrian]

28. yeah.... well it's a lot simpler

if you just realize most were stoned to the bejezzus when they "saw/heard" the "word of god"

[MineralMan]

29. Well, ingestion of substances is not required to "see things."

Naturally-occurring brain chemistry is more than adequate. Consider your vivid dreams, and then imagine having them while you are awake. Such are hallucinations. Visions, so to speak.

[Locrian]

30. dreams are not really the same

they don't generally have the persistence and weight of a "vision"

But there is a case that has been made that certain people have more DMT in the brain (it's a naturally occurring chemical) - which can lead to psychedelic experiences.

Read Michael Pollan's new booK "How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence " or any of Ghram Hancock's books.

[marylandblue]

31. You also have to add in the tradition of fasting and long hours praying

Very pious people who fast and pray all night may experience visions due to lack of food and sleep. The vision is thought to be a sort of "reward" for their good works and proof of their saintliness.

[MineralMan]

34. I suppose lots of things can lead to "visions" and "apparitions."

The troubling thing to me is taking such things seriously and assigning merit to them. For me, the ready acceptance of such "visitations" by the body of the Church is puzzling. Troubling, too, since they serve to increase believers' reliance on unreliable and evanescent "evidence."

My question of someone who has seen a "vision" or something of the like is to ask if they're OK. Such things can be symptoms of a number of disorders that should be discussed with a healthcare professional.

[zipplewrath]

32. Earth shattering

Amazing. You're the first person to figure all of this out.

What are you going to tell us next? Water is wet?

[MineralMan]

33. I made no claim of that kind.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I'm sorry it did not live up to your expectations of uniqueness. Truly sorry.

However, I am pleased that others have joined in a discussion in this thread. You're welcome to participate.

[aka-chmeee]

36. Came up out of long ago favorite.

".....There you go man! Keep as cool as you can! It riles them to believe that we perceive the web they weave. Keep on thinking free!"

[MineralMan]

37. Hey, I'm a real cool cat, for sure.

"I can see them they can't see me
I feel out of sight
I can see them they can't see me
Much to my delight…"

Thanks - from a mouse playing daffodil...