Well, Trump Got Prayed Over Again.

[MineralMan]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pastor-andrew-brunson-meets-trump-after-release-detention-turkey-n919811



Andrew Brunson, recently released by Turkey, went immediately to the White House upon returning to the US. There, he laid hands on Der Trumpster and prayed that he would gain "supernatural wisdom."

Frankly, I'd settle for just some garden variety, natural wisdom from The Donwald. Brunson was arrested, tried, and convicted in Turkey for meddling in Turkish politics. Trump negotiated for his release, which was granted probably in part to distract from the assassination of a WaPo reporter in the Saudi Embassy there.

I will watch for signs of any "supernatural or abnormal wisdom" but don't expect to detect any sort of wisdom from Trump. I don't think the deity Brunson was praying to will be coming through on this, since it doesn't actually exist, as far as I can tell.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. It doesn't seem to be helping.

That could very well be because there is no God, which would be the atheist position. It could also be because God thinks it's all bullshit and has no intention of doing Trump any favors, which could be the position of at least some theists. Either way, we should not expect any kind of wisdom, supernatural or otherwise, to be visited upon Trump from any source.

If there is a God I sure wish he'd get busy and do some useful smiting.

[MineralMan]

2. No gods is my explanation for why it won't happen.

For real deists, it won't happen because their "Creator" did the creation thing and then disappeared to do other stuff, I guess.

For run-of-the-mill Christians, who pray regularly, neither explanation is accepted. Their beliefs depend on an actively listening deity, which answers prayers. Otherwise, they wouldn't "pray without ceasing," as is recommended in scripture in 1 Thessalonians 5: 17.

I don't know what Pastor Brunson believes, really. But, he laid his hand on Trump's shoulder and asked that he be given "supernatural wisdom." Good luck with that, I guess.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Pastor Brunson spent a couple of years in a Turkish prison,

which is something that could mess up one's head. But I'm guessing he did a lot of praying, which probably at least made him feel better. And he did finally get released, even if God either doesn't exist or had nothing to do with it. So considering his religious tradition he probably thinks his prayers were finally answered. However, I don't think Trump is capable of acquiring supernatural wisdom or any other kind; that prayer will wind up in God's office shredder if he does exist, or nowhere at all if he doesn't.

For my part, I'm an agnostic, which some consider intellectually lazy but that's OK with me. As an agnostic I can opt out of pointless arguments about something that can't be objectively proved one way or the other, and the existence or non-existence of God, or a god or gods, is something I can't do anything about anyhow. If there isn't one I'll just carry on. If there is, I have no way of knowing which religion is the correct one since they all claim to be the correct one, and what would be the point of having to choose a religion that might be the wrong one? So even if there is a God, there's no way to determine how to acknowledge/worship/obey or whatever, so I'll just acknowledge that maybe there could be a "force" or something but I can't do anything about it, so I don't go to any church at all and I don't worry.

[sprinkleeninow]

11. "Pray without ceasing" means our outward life should reflect a 'prayerful inner life'.

Not necessarily prayer spoken with 'words'.

💙

[trotsky]

16. ...

You realize being an atheist isn't about thinking one has "objective proof" there are no gods, right?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. I don't worry much about it one way or the other.

[trotsky]

18. I understand that. And honestly, most atheists don't either.

And that's why I object to your mischaracterization of the atheist position.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Whatever you say. I don't argue about religion vs. non-religion.

[trotsky]

20. So you don't think I'm worth listening to when I say you're mischaracterizing me.

Understood. You go right on judging.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. Not at all. I accept your characterization of your belief system.

I just prefer not to get into arguments about people’s belief systems.

[trotsky]

22. Politics is about arguments over belief systems, you know.

I mean, I totally get your little routine here; I'm sure it feels very good to sit in judgment of others and feel that you're so much more enlightened and above the fray than the unwashed masses. But if you're so far removed from it all, why do you jump in to these discussions and take potshots?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. Well, first of all I don't feel superior at all. I'm just disengaged from arguments about religion

because I don't see any use for me, personally, in arguing about whether there is or is not a god - so most of the time I don't participate in this forum at all. My basic concerns and beliefs regarding religion have to do with the extent to which it is allowed to influence our supposedly secular government. I am also interested in the history of religions and the way they have influenced society as an anthropological study, but I don't care to debate the merits or demerits of any of them. I don't feel superior to either atheists or believers in any way; I'm just not that interested in getting involved in the god vs. no god debate.

The only reason I participated in this thread at all was to comment on the absurdity of a pastor praying for Trump to receive "supernatural wisdom," since the likelihood of Trump ever getting any sort of wisdom from any source is approximately zero. My comment was intended to be neutral and I don't get why it seems to have given you such offense.

[trotsky]

25. It's because you mischaracterized atheism in order to position yourself more favorably.

You wrote:

As an agnostic I can opt out of pointless arguments about something that can't be objectively proved one way or the other, and the existence or non-existence of God, or a god or gods, is something I can't do anything about anyhow. If there isn't one I'll just carry on.

Being an agnostic doesn't necessarily imply any of that. Most atheists I know don't think you can "objectively prove" whether or not a god exists, either. Being an atheist just means that when the question is asked, "Do you believe in any gods?", you answer "no" or perhaps "not enough evidence has been presented."

I could mention how "agnostic" and atheist" describe different things too, but I sense you would not be interested in that.

It would also be helpful if you didn't try to paint the picture that there are unreasonable illogical atheists and unreasonable illogical theists just endlessly debating a question that can't be answered. Are specific religious beliefs helpful or harmful? Do religious organizations enable/protect criminals, or help root them out? Does the conditioning of religious faith make people more or less susceptible to unsupported beliefs like trickle-down economics? All of these have been topics of discussion in this forum, and you are certainly welcome to participate in any/all of them instead of bashing the entire group for getting stuck on the "god vs. no god debate."

[sprinkleeninow]

10. May your every smiting wish come true. Will you recognize it when it begins?

💙

[Bfd]

3. Supernatural Wisdom also appears in some hellish characters in the Bible.

Better be cautious when summoning up supernatural wisdom.

Things are bad enough, maybe Brunson should have just stayed out of it.

[sprinkleeninow]

9. Actually, I'm with you.

This guy who just got released would have been smarter to have gotten on his face, humbly prostrating himself, thanking God for his freedom. Return to his family and community publicly thanking God for his release.

As a practicing Orthodox Christian, this act with himself and the-worker-of-iniquity-in-chief almost made my spirit burst.

Every church service we sing responses to a litany asking God 'to have mercy or grant it O Lord'. One of them covers our president. Since 8 November 2016, I refuse to sing that specific response, "Have mercy or grant it O Lord".

If I have sin bc of that, so be it.

[Bfd]

12. I could not say the chant either.

I would feel blasphemous toward my belief of all things good & pure. The continuous process of the human being we strive to be, throughout our lives. Over & over if we must.

I would say the response, 'Have Mercy', on behalf of all those our President has betrayed, hurt & forgotten", however.

Have Mercy, indeed.

I hear you & agree.

[sprinkleeninow]

15. 💙

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

4. I'm praying too... that the DicKKK-tator-in-Chief gets fired by the American people!!

[SWBTATTReg]

6. Hypocrites. Both of them. Brunson for the hypocrisy and believing that rump believes his ...

crap. I'm guess I'm glad that Brunson is out but I don't know the story on this guy. Interfering or meddling in Turkish politics. We here in the US ask that foreigners don't interfere in ours either. It's funny that rump went to so much effort to get this guy out. Watch out that the ultra Christians push rump to get the evil ones who'll begin Armageddon. They already got rump to move the capital of Israel.

Remember, we do have freedom of religion and must respect it. I respect it most when it means freedom from religion if ones chooses. This is by far the most important of the rights and freedoms we have as Americans. If one recalls from history, a lot of our ancestors fled Europe due to religious persecution. I don't want to see it here in the US (we have had in some form or fashion here already) and thus, this is one freedom we must guard against constantly. Too many wars, too many people have been harmed or killed in the past due to religious beliefs (erroneous of course). One I recall is the 1844 movement that the end of the world was coming (in the US) and so folks sold everything and got ready. Didn't happen. I could name multiple events such as this repeatedly in our history, where these nuts have convinced innocent people of this belief and caused them great harm in wiping out all they had due to these so called beliefs.

All Hypocrites, so be on guard. Believe if you must, but smartly and intelligently. Our history is full of suckers and those harmed by these beliefs.

[walkingman]

7. If this is an example of Christianity then count me out.

[MineralMan]

8. Well, it's an example of some branches of Christianity.

Not all. "You shall know them by their works..." applies.

[Bfd]

13. Yup. Christianity simplified.

That's really all there is to it.

"You shall know them by their works..."

[Permanut]

14. Doesn't work unless you anoint them with blessed salad oil..

at least I think that's how it works.

[MineralMan]

23. Trump doesn't allow anointing.

It messes up his hairdo and makes his suntan makeup run. Hands-on praying is about the most he'll put up with.

[Freethinker65]

26. Glad he got released but that does not mean he is not a charlatan.

In fact, the above picture pretty much confirms he is a charlatan.

[Thomas Hurt]

27. A Pharisee and a False Prophet walk into a bar...

[MineralMan]

28. The Pharisee asks, "Who's buying?"

The False Prophet says, "Let's put it on Jesus's tab."

[Tanuki]

29. ...they tried unsuccessfully to pick up Two Corinthians....

[3catwoman3]

30. One of my favorite quotes from Fiddler...

...On The Roof is from the village rabbi, who offers this prayer or the Tsar - "God bless and keep the Tsar - far away from here!"

[C_U_L8R]

31. Sorry Donny, praying ain't gonna make it bigger.