Religion
Related: About this forumThe Bible Keeps Getting Translated into English - Again and Again and Again...
For people interested in such things, it's fun to compare different translations of key portions of the New Testament in particular. Different translations make subtle changes to suit a particular set of doctrines for one particular denomination or group of denominations. In other cases, the translation attempts to recast the text into language that is more easily understood than the 17th Century English of the King James version. Below, I digress for a time:
Almost 50 years ago, I met a Russian immigrant poet, an older man who fled the Soviet Union after WWII. As a poet myself who had enjoyed some publication of my work, we met in a group that discussed poetry. He was surprised to learn that I could speak and read Russian, thanks to the USAF, which gave me an excellent education in that language.
His English was not fluent. He asked if I would consider translating his poems into English. I agreed to do that, as long as we could do it working closely together on each poem. Then, I asked him whether he wanted his poetry to read well as poetry in English or if he wanted to have it be a more direct, literal translation that ignored poetic forms to some degree. "Can we do both?" he asked. I said that we could do that as we worked, and then decide which version was more effective.
The thing about poetry is that it often takes liberties with language and even more often plays on words and idiomatic expressions to convey its meaning. Russian is rich in idioms, most of which are old, localized, and meaningless to English speakers, since we do not share the history and environment that generated them. In the end, the poet chose the translations that converted Russian idioms to English equivalents, rather than the translations that retained the literal meaning of the Russian idioms. Now, back to the bible:
Translating the Bible has some of the same problems. The source texts are written in ancient Greek and Hebrew, for the most part, with some Aramaic texts thrown in for good measure. Modern translators actually cannot turn to living speakers of either of those languages, as I could with my Russian friend. They can't ask, "Exactly how was this understood at the time it was written?" In many cases, the answer is not known. The cultures have changed in dramatic ways. It's a knotty problem, which rarely is solved satisfactorily.
Judaism and Christianity are ancient religions. They developed in a time that was so different from our own that we cannot understand exactly the environment that existed. We cannot trek across the Middle East with our goats and huts, listening to stories and oral histories around the evening fire. We cannot live the language used in old texts.
Because we don't have that experience, we cannot really do accurate translations that truly convey the original meaning. it is a problem. It is a problem with no ideal solution. Too much time has passed.
TexasTowelie
(116,854 posts)In the meantime, I will stick with the LOLCat Bible. Praise be to Ceiling Cat who made the heavens and the urf.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)translations.
Not so, the Bible, however. Someone's always tweaking it.
malchickiwick
(1,474 posts)First noted by Anthony Burgess, as far as I know.
If you read the KJV version of Psalm 46 and count forward, the 46th word is "shake;" counting backward from the end of the Psalm (ignoring "selah," which is not part of the actual Psalm) the 46th word is "speare." In 1610, when the KJV was in its final edit, so to speak, Shakespeare would have been 46 years old.
There is no evidence, that I know of, that the Bard was ever part of the KJV team, but he at least would have had acquaintances, or more, with those who did work on it.
Of course, this could very well be just an historical coinky-dink, but it is fun to think about, and your post made me remember it for the first time in years.
Cool story about your Russian friend, BTW.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)The King James Version was contemporaneous with William Shakespeare, of course. Whether he had anything to do with it is unknown, and really immaterial, I think.
If he had been involved, though, it would not be surprising if he left an Easter Egg in there. He was a master of word play.
There is a TV commercial running right now, for what product I can't remember. In it, a young woman is watching the play, "Romeo and Juliet." She seems puzzled by the language, as many are, and a nice man leans forward and whispers a short summary in modern English of her balcony soliloquy. The woman smiles and nods in thanks.
We're so very far away from the 1600s today. Most people can't understand a Shakespeare play while they watch it. Not well, anyhow. The language has changed that much.
monmouth4
(10,141 posts)MineralMan
(147,606 posts)safeinOhio
(34,101 posts)Bart Ehrman is a great read.
mitch96
(14,670 posts)Do you have an example of something in Russian poetry that doesn't translate well into English??
Just curious..
m
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)One of my prized possessions is a Soviet era Dictionary of Idiomatic Expressions. Two thick volumes full of phrases that make no sense to English speakers but do to Russians. Similies and metaphors that reference Russian life. I've resisted selling it, but it's rare. There's an entire page on the symbolism of the Russian word for "apple," for example, with literary references and examples. All in academic Russian. It's a slog to use, but pretty amazing.
In English, a phrase like, "hit a homer" is meaningless if literally translated into a language of a place that doesn't know baseball, for example. "Hit it out of the park" is another. All languages have many such cultural idioms that don't translate well.
keithbvadu2
(40,160 posts)Still some Aramaic speakers?
https://www.google.com/search?q=is+aramaic+still+spoken&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)There are plenty of Hebrew and Greek speakers. Modern Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and even English are different in many ways than ancient or older version of the same languages.
For example, people struggle to read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in its original Middle English. It was written some time around 1400 CE. Just 600 years ago, English sounded and read like a foreign language. Go back to about 1000 CE and look at Beowulf, which was written in Old English. For almost every English speaker, it is indecipherable. Even 200 years later, Shakespeare's English and the English of the King James Version of the bible seems unfamiliar to many English speakers. Here's a page from Beowulf in the original Old English:
Now, go back a couple of millennia with Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Even though those languages are still spoken and written today, it now takes serious scholarship to understand them well. Latin, on the other hand, has been pretty well preserved by the Roman Catholic Church, although few non-clerics speak it. Does it sound today as it did during Biblical times? Almost certainly not.