China's repression of Uighurs won't stop until the international community intervenes

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

In a statement, the Concerned Scholars on China’s Mass Detention of Turkic Minorities denounced the escalating atrocities facing Uighurs and called internment camps like the one Tursun was sent to a gross violation of human rights....

Tursun’s experience of family separation, threats, violence, re-education and torture at the hands of the Chinese government puts a human face on these abuses. More than that, it makes clear that the communist regime is not prepared for a woman like Turson. The repression, she said, “only made me more confident in my identity.”
Turson, who wore a headscarf tied at her neck, said she was forbidden in China from wearing the hijab. Most other forms of Muslim devotion are also proscribed.

To read more:


https://religionnews.com/2018/12/04/chinas-repression-of-uighurs-wont-stop-until-the-international-community-intervenes/

Intolerant behavior.

[Mariana]

1. That is a bad situation, for certain.

What do you think should be done about it, Gil, and who do you think should do it?

[guillaumeb]

2. The UN is one forum.

But political will is lacking because, in part, China is a huge economic player.

My view.

Yours?

[Mariana]

5. What do you think should be done? nt.

[guillaumeb]

6. Sanctions would be one option.

As was done with Iran.

Again, what do you think should be done?

[Mariana]

10. China has veto power on the UN security council.

How could the UN enforce any kind of effective action against China?

[guillaumeb]

11. Great powers can do as they wish.

And they generally do.

Sanctions were a huge force in South Africa.

[Mariana]

12. Yes, and China is a great power.

South Africa is not really a valid comparison, and neither is Iran. How would sanctions against China be enforced?

[guillaumeb]

13. That might make a good discussion in the general discussion.

[Mariana]

16. Do you not wish to discuss your OP anymore?

If you don't want to talk about what the international community can do to protect the Uighurs in China, why did you post this here?

[guillaumeb]

18. To inform people of the issue.

And I suggested options, and asked your opinion.

So, feel free to respond with your own view of what should or could be done.

[trotsky]

22. Bullshit.

You posted it for the same reason you post any news about the Chinese government's actions here in the Religion forum: to try and make a false equivalence. The whole point is for you to be able to say "See? Atheists are just as intolerant as the religious!" Which again is attacking some sort of straw man because no one has ever said atheists CAN'T be intolerant. It's just part of your agenda to dismiss persecution that is happening specifically *BECAUSE* of religious beliefs by waving your hands and saying "Religion is never to blame! PEOPLE are always the problem!" It sounds exactly like the NRA saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" Well sure, but they're a lot more effective at it when they use guns, aren't they?

[guillaumeb]

26. OK.

Read the article, notice the references to religion.

This is not political repression, repression of political ideas. It is repression of a belief system by adherents of another belief system.



And the re-education camps are not special college courses for these people.

[trotsky]

29. Thank you for perfectly proving my point.

You're the best, g-man! I can always count on you to humiliate yourself.

[guillaumeb]

36. Thank you for confirming my suspicion. eom

[marylandblue]

50. Actually, it's mostly about nationalism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_nationalism

Note that some Uyghur regions are separatist and others are not. The separatist areas are being repressed more than the pro-Chinese areas.

[guillaumeb]

57. And you are free to take that position.

But in general, the Chinese Government, while officially allowing religion, demands control of every aspect of the exercise of religion.

Classic totalitarian and intolerant behavior. But in this case, the intolerant ones are not theists.

[marylandblue]

74. I am getting a little tired of the word "intolerance"

Since covers such a broad range of behavior, from mere disapproval to mass murder. The Chinese government has always been anti-religious. But enforcement is variable based on the perceived threat to the government. It may all be "intolerance" to you, but to the people being oppressed, it makes a big difference.

[guillaumeb]

75. The Uighurs might have their own word for it.

And it continues to happen.

And yes, the Chinese Government officially allows for religious behavior, but in practice, reality shows something else.

[marylandblue]

78. My point is you are painting with too broad a brush

[guillaumeb]

81. WalMart. $19.99.

Made in China.

[marylandblue]

82. See, there you go again, you assume the country and the store, and ended up in the wrong place.

It's actually an industrial broom from U-line, American made and $63.

[guillaumeb]

83. The owner of Uline, Richard Uihlein,

is a well known funder of right wing politicians.

So shopping there supports a right wing Trumper.

[marylandblue]

85. Uline is an industrial supplier and they carry items that are difficult to find elsewhere

So most of their customers have business needs or their boss tells them where to shop. And WalMart is not so great either.

[guillaumeb]

87. I understand.

Just pointing out some information.

[trotsky]

89. "you are free to take that position"?

Jesus Christ gil, really?

He stated a fact - that the separatist groups are being repressed more than the pro-Chinese ones. That's a FACT, not an opinion.

No wonder you struggle to be taken seriously, and have to lash out with insults and attacks.

[MineralMan]

47. Rug used to do that stuff, too.

He's not here anymore, though.

[guillaumeb]

53. And?

Goblinmonger is another name from the past. And there are others.

[MineralMan]

55. And nothing...

[guillaumeb]

58. Then why bring it up at all?

Considering it has nothing to do with the actual topic at hand.

[MineralMan]

62. I wasn't addressing you, guy.

I'm still not.

[Major Nikon]

48. There's also some majority Muslim countries that have banned the hijab for decades

Interesting how they are never mentioned, but when it’s done for secular reasons we hear all about it.

[marylandblue]

51. Are you sure it's the hijab, not the niqab or the burka?

The hijab just covers the hair. The niqab is the veil and the burqa has just a screen to see out. The niqab and burka are banned in some Muslim countries because of fears of terrorism, so even in Muslim countries, it's for a secular reason.

[Major Nikon]

54. ...

Turkey, Tunisia, and Tajikistan are Muslim-majority countries where the law prohibits or recently prohibited the wearing of hijab in government buildings, schools, and universities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab#Muslim_world

[marylandblue]

65. Thanks, I didn't know about that

[guillaumeb]

66. A claim.

No evidence.

[Major Nikon]

69. A bullshit claim

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=299822

[trotsky]

90. Evidence provided.

You should thank him for informing you.

[MineralMan]

91. Click the link in that post, Guy.

Even in 1967-8, when i was stationed in Turkey, The hijab was prohibited in government facilities in that country. Turkey was a secular country with a secular government, even at that time.

[trotsky]

88. Great point. n/t

[gtar100]

37. Thank you.

For posting articles that are of interest and ones I would normally not see.

[guillaumeb]

40. You are welcome.

I find DU to be a great source for information that I might never see otherwise.

[Act_of_Reparation]

3. "Intolerance" makes light of the situation.

It isn't "intolerance". It is repression.

[guillaumeb]

4. Repression perhaps motivated by intolerance.

And a fear of competing belief systems. Marxism versus theism, with the powerful being Marxists.

[trotsky]

7. "Theism" isn't a belief system any more than atheism is.

Marxism is, though. Perhaps you're making progress.

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. Perhaps not.

Perhaps it is because the Communist Party of China—the only party in China—does not like competition and presents a demonstrable history of treating all dissenting groups, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, with similar hostility.

Perhaps your persistent attempts to qualify China's treatment of these people as one of atheism's great moral failings are pretty fucking despicable and maybe you should turn off the computer and take account of how you got to this point. Because, damn dude.

[trotsky]

21. "maybe you should turn off the computer and take account of how you got to this point"

I think we need to be honest here and say that if that hasn't happened yet, it's simply not going to.

That he could not only seriously advance the ridiculous example of the Boston Atheists group kicking a Trump supporter out of their ranks as proof of "atheistic intolerance" but CONTINUE to cling to it, means he is likely incapable of such introspection.

OR, it's all worth it in his crusade against people who express negative opinions about religion. The ends justify the means. I think that's more likely.

[marylandblue]

76. I commented on that too

Intolerance is one of Gil's go to words. Whatever is bad in the world can be blamed on "intolerance," as if people never fought over anything else.

[Act_of_Reparation]

92. It's crackerjack, bumper sticker, slacktivist ethics.

Indictments of intolerance look great on the back of a Toyota and don't actually require you to do or say or think anything courageous, so it's perfect for the upwardly mobile Democrat looking to stick it to the man as inoffensively as possible.

[NeoGreen]

9. Because...

...baby Odin wants it that way?

Because suffering is all part of the plan?

[MineralMan]

14. You should write a stern letter to Xi, I think, Guy.

Yup, that will do it.

[guillaumeb]

15. A well reasoned reply.

[MineralMan]

17. Well, I'm not sure how religion figures into China's repression

of philosophies that oppose it's own official philosophy. This seems more like a GD thread to me. It's about politics, not religion.

[guillaumeb]

19. The article, and others on this topic that I have posted,

makes it clear that the Uighurs are being persecuted because of their religion.

So it is an intersection of politics and religious freedom.

[MineralMan]

20. Well, you see, the Chinese system represses all philosophies

that are opposed to that system. All. It's not about religion, Guy. It's about politics.

I did think of another way you could send a message, though. Boycott all Chinese products. Start a movement to get others to do that.

The man I work with most often is Chinese. He fled China to come to the US immediately after the Tienanmen Square incident. Not for religious reasons, but because he believed in democratic principles. He's not a believer in any religion. He was persecuted for his opinions, just like some people persecute people for their opinions here in the United States. He thinks things are better here, but is still aware of such repression. China doesn't like opposition to its political system, wherever that opposition comes from.

This is not a religious topic.

[guillaumeb]

24. We disagree.

The re-education camps, a subject of an earlier post, seem to be designed to re-educate people and eliminate adherence to another belief system.

Your one anecdotal example hardly refutes this example of systematic repression of a religious group.

[MineralMan]

28. :shrug:

I'm far more concerned with repression right here in this country.

[guillaumeb]

33. So you do not care about repression in general?

Interesting.

[Major Nikon]

72. That's not what he said

So strawman bullshit

[Major Nikon]

67. So you think religion is the only reason people go to such camps

Because it sounds like that’s what you’re alleging.

[Major Nikon]

23. The hijab is a symbol of female repression all over the world

So which is really more intolerant. Telling someone they can’t wear a hijab, or telling someone they must wear a hijab.

Followup questions:

What does it say about someone who is obsessed over one of those things, but not the other? Is it really intolerance they are concerned about?

[guillaumeb]

25. Diversion in action.

Does this example of intolerance toward religious believers represent a bad thing, or a good thing?

[Major Nikon]

49. If you don't want to answer, I understand

I’ll just chalk it up to yet another instance where you demand answers, but never provide them. It’s not as if it isn’t expected.

[guillaumeb]

52. You diverted,

and then demanded an answer.

Answer the question.

[Major Nikon]

56. Bullshit

[guillaumeb]

59. Read the title.

[Major Nikon]

60. Bullshit

[pangaia]

27. Chinese repression of Uighurs has nothing to do with their religion.

Nothing, nada, zilch...

The Chinese Communist Party will repress ANYBODY who does not agree with them, OR who demonstrates they do not agree with them.

I have quite a few friends, close friends, in China. You know not of what you speak.

[MineralMan]

30. You are correct.

He only has information from blogs.

Thank you.

[guillaumeb]

32. And as counterbalance, you have that one person that you know.

[MineralMan]

34. Do you know anyone who is from China, Guy?

I do. I know and work with someone who left China due to repression. You have blog posts. Think about it.

[guillaumeb]

39. As a matter of fact, I do.

But that does not make me an expert on China, or the well documented repression taking place there.


And in this instance, this particular instance, the repression is directed against members of a religious minority.

[MineralMan]

41. Bye, now...

[guillaumeb]

43. A good move on your part.

I also know 2 people from Lithuania.

And 1 Russian.

[pangaia]

35. It's pretty easy, isn't it.

I mean, to say nothing of the fact that I've been to China a bunch of times over the last 18 years..., everywhere..
... my ex-wife is Chinese and has been all over Xinjiang..

[MineralMan]

38. But guillaunmeb has religionnews.com

He knows better...

[pangaia]

44. OOppss.. Jeeze I just looked. That's a real one.

[guillaumeb]

31. Explain that to the Uighurs.

Classic intolerance from a dictatorial regime. Directed in this case against people of one faith. Thus, we have an intersection of intolerance and faith.

[pangaia]

42. YOU try to explain that to Uighurs. They will laugh in your face.

Did you forget Tibetans, Christians, GAYS, Democracy supporters, ANY political party other than the Communist Party, "ethnic minorities' with any or no particular 'religion', dissidents, human rights supporters, voting rights activists, film makers, composers, dance companies,

Ever try using Facebook or a thousand other URLs from mainland China? Without at LEAST a VPN?

Do you have any idea what the protests in 1989 were about? The protests in Beijing were actually a small part of it.

[guillaumeb]

45. That has nothing to do with this post,

other than to confirm that the Chinese Government, like totalitarian governments everywhere, tolerates no dissent and no other belief systems.

Unless they can control them.

[Major Nikon]

77. Says the guy who insists non-belief is a "belief system"

Your credibility on the subject isn’t worth much

[MineralMan]

46. Guillaumeb knows better. As you've discovered,

No doubt. My colleague, who came here as a refugee, is a PhD neuroscientist. He fled, due to political persecution. But, of course, he knows nothing of China. Guillaumeb knows, because he reads religionnews.com. See? He is an expert on China. On everything, really. I'm in awe of him...

[guillaumeb]

64. And he is thus an expert on the Uighurs.

And the Chinese Government.

Interesting exercise in logic.

One suggestion:

Have this unnamed colleague submit an informative article on this issue to a major publication. Link to that article.

[Act_of_Reparation]

68. A major publication? You mean like patheos?

Or religion news?

Go home. You're drunk.

[guillaumeb]

70. Funny how MM can attack a post from one cleric,

but hold up this unnamed colleague as his source.

That is indeed interesting. What do you think of that logic?

[MineralMan]

71. And you are?

And the writer you quoted? My colleague was a repressed person. He sought and received asylum here. He knows about Chinese repression. You? Bubkes. I have known my colleague for 10 years. I don't know you at all.

Have you lived in China? Have you suffered state repression? No? I'll listen to someone who has, thanks. You're amazing, Guy!

[guillaumeb]

73. I made no such claim.

The article interviewed actual Uighurs. Perhaps you should travel to China and educate them as to what they are experiencing.

Your logic in this matter is indeed unique.

And this colleague, is he an expert on the Uighurs? You might wish to ask him about that.

[marylandblue]

79. I am sure the Uighurs understand that they live in a region of long dispute

It's been fought over for millenia, falling in and out of Chinese hands in a pattern that predates Islam.

[marylandblue]

80. A lot of things intersect in Uighur territory, where the Silk Roads once passed through

And China is building new roads to extend it's influence beyond it's borders into Central Asia.

[kelly1mm]

61. Then China's represion will not stop. nt

[MineralMan]

63. That is almost certainly true.

[guillaumeb]

84. Not unless the costs to it are too high.

But capitalism finds allies everywhere.

[kelly1mm]

86. Like i said before, then China's repression will not stop ........ nt