China passes law to 'make Islam more compatible with socialism' amid outcry over Muslim abuse

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

China has announced plans to make Islam “more compatible with socialism”, amid growing fears about a crackdown on the country’s Muslims.
Beijing is to introduce measures aimed at “the sinicisation” of the religion within four years, state media reported.

The move is likely to fuel concerns about re-education camps in China’s Xinjiang region, where a million or more Uighurs and other Muslim minorities are believed to be held.....

China, which denied the existence of the camps until October last year, has claimed it is detaining people guilty of minor crimes and that inmates are “grateful” to have been sent to the “vocational education centres”...

It added: “Practising Islam has been forbidden in parts of China, with individuals caught praying, fasting, growing a beard or wearing a hijab … facing the threat of arrest

To read more:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-crackdown-xinjiang-islam-united-nations-sinicize-a8715506.html

Interesting how the US media basically ignores this story.

[trotsky]

1. The best response to you is right in the headline you posted.

China passes law to 'make Islam more compatible with socialism'

Not atheism, socialism.

You understand those two things are different, right?

[guillaumeb]

2. China is led by? eom

[trotsky]

3. Totalitarian socialists who are motivated by greed and power.

Atheism has nothing to do with any of it.

However there are lots of theists who fully admit their actions are motivated by specific religious teachings.

Do you understand yet the false equivalence you are trying to construct?

[guillaumeb]

4. These Chinese totalitarians are atheists.

And behaving exactly the same way as their theistic counterparts.

Intolerance is a human characteristic. What we claim as the motivation is meaningless and beside the point.

[trotsky]

5. What does their atheism have to do with anything?

Please explain.

[Major Nikon]

7. You don't know that

You just “believe” it to be true because it fits the false narrative you are trying to construct and failing miserably.

[guillaumeb]

10. I understand that you believe this, and wish it to be true.

It fits with your own belief driven narrative.

[Major Nikon]

13. I don't have to "believe" anything to call bullshit

All I have to do is correctly point out you have exactly zero evidence for your assertion.

This is actually a very simple concept, but one you seem to fail to grasp time and time again. For your sake I hope it's intentional.

[guillaumeb]

14. Many of us understand. eom

[Major Nikon]

16. Not the dreaded imaginary fan club!

[Mariana]

71. He receives numerous personal messages, don't you know.

Asking him to continue what he is doing, and praising his efforts in this group. So he has told us.

[Major Nikon]

72. As long as he believes it that's all that matters

Everyone needs friends they can count on.

[Major Nikon]

38. Tell that to women who are called "whores" trying to enter women's clinics

I'm sure they would understand your logic.

[guillaumeb]

39. I am still waiting for you to define the word irrational.

And your attempt at diversion is noted.

Now, what about the Chinese totalitarians and their behavior? The actual subject.

[Major Nikon]

41. Seems more than a bit obtuse, but here we are

Definition of irrational
: not rational

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrational

[guillaumeb]

43. So you admit that you misused the word. A good start. Now:

what about the Chinese totalitarians and their behavior? The actual subject.

[Major Nikon]

46. I am shocked--shocked--to find that strawman is going on in here!

If you're going to toss a fallacy out there, I'm not going to give you a pass for that bullshit, gil. Now explain how I misused the word or I can safely assume you are admitting to being full of shit.

[guillaumeb]

50. Diversion 101

As MM often counsels, respond to the post.

[Major Nikon]

57. "refuse to discuss the actual topic"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303434

[Lordquinton]

73. Ahahahahha!

[guillaumeb]

74. Harmonious.

[Major Nikon]

6. ...

[edhopper]

8. Are we still using

old Red Scare tactics?

[guillaumeb]

11. This has nothing to do with Communism,

and everything to do with totalitarians who are atheists.

[Major Nikon]

15. Which is exactly what Red Scare was

Irrational fear of godless communists is exactly why the national motto was changed to "In God We Trust" and "under god" was added to the loyalty pledge children were forced to recite daily.

[guillaumeb]

19. Talk to the Uighurs about irrational fears.

Tell the Uighurs that the concentration camps are really educational camps.


Tell the Uighur families who are forced to deal with Han Chinese spies living in their houses that their fears are irrational.

I am certain that your logic would enlighten them.

[Major Nikon]

25. That was actually your argument, Gil

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303068

[guillaumeb]

28. No it was not.

And my response to you remains unaddressed by you.

Your reply:

Irrational fear of godless communists is exactly why the national motto was changed to "In God We Trust" and "under god" was added to the loyalty pledge children were forced to recite daily.

Do you know what the word irrational means?

[Major Nikon]

30. I'm sure you believe your condescension constitutes a rational reply

[guillaumeb]

32. Define irrational when the post describes actual events.

Irrational fear of godless communists is exactly why the national motto was changed to "In God We Trust" and "under god" was added to the loyalty pledge children were forced to recite daily.

Good luck with that one.

[Major Nikon]

35. The "choir" is out to get me!

Sorry, gil, but you walked right into that one.

[guillaumeb]

37. Good strategy on your part to avoid an answer.

Given that you used the word irrational in a response to actual events.

[Major Nikon]

40. You asked for an example, I gave a perfect one to you

Meanwhile you still haven't come to grips with the fact that the Red Scare actually did describe real events with an irrational response. So it really just looks like you are confused about the subtle, yet still distinct differences between irrational and delusional. I can certainly understand how you might confuse those things.

[guillaumeb]

42. More avoidance and diversion.

What the Chinese totalitarians are doing is a crime. But, unfortunately for the preferred narrative, they are not theists.

[Major Nikon]

44. You won't even discuss Red Scare which is the whole point of this sub-thread

So please don't talk about avoidance and diversion because your evidence for it just isn't that hard to find.

[guillaumeb]

45. Read the actual post, and the actual subject.

I am following MM's advice.

Stay on topic.

[Major Nikon]

47. It's understandable that you won't explain why you are employing the same tactics as the Red Scare

[guillaumeb]

49. Diversionary tactic 101.

It is understandable why you refuse to discuss the actual topic.

[Major Nikon]

56. "refuse to discuss the actual topic"

Not atheism, socialism.

You understand those two things are different, right?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303250

Answer: <crickets>

The best part is it's actually your "topic" that you're refusing to actually discuss.

[MineralMan]

9. What does that have to do with us, Guillaumeb?

Why this sudden interest in China, Guy? Last month it was Islam and Rumi, a Muslim Poet. Now you're on about what's going on in China, which none of us can do anything at all about.

I agree that China shouldn't be putting people in camps or moving atheists into people's homes. But, that's China, a nation that we have zero influence with. I'm more concerned with our own country, which is putting asylum-seekers in camps, detaining them, instead of processing their claims for asylum. I assume that many of those people are Christians. Why are you not incensed about that, instead of China doing things to Muslims?

Please get real, Guy. Please focus on real problems that we can affect. You're wasting your time on China, a nation you don't even understand, which speaks a language you don't understand and has a system of government you don't understand.

Learn about what is going on here, like forcible attempts to convert LGBTQ people into heterosexuals in the name of God. Where is your concern about that? That's happening right here in the USA. Learn about attempts by Christians to control the reproductive choices of women. That's something you can do something about.

China? You can't do a damned thing about China. Get real!

[guillaumeb]

12. Get real?

Do you suppose that your many posts on religion accomplish anything?

This is a discussion board. The purpose of a discussion board is to discuss things.

I understand your tendency to post personal stories that you feel illustrate something.

But some of us can recognize the fact that humans, no matter their labels, behave in a remarkably consistent fashion.

[MineralMan]

17. Well, my posts in this group always seem to

stimulate discussion and conversation, which is all I hope to accomplish. Whether people agree or disagree with my posts, most people participate materially in the discussions that follow. That's my goal with every post.

A few people, however, do not actually participate in such discussions. Instead, they leave snarky replies that have nothing to do witthe topic. I don't pay much attention to such people.

[guillaumeb]

21. Is that why your replies in this post have nothing to do with the topic?

An ironic way of demonstrating your point?

Amazing.

[MineralMan]

23. My post was about China, as was yours.

I asked you to please have a look at similar things here in the USA, where we can actually affect them.

How is that not about the topic?

Do you even bother to read replies to your posts? My reply was directly on topic.

[guillaumeb]

26. No, your reply was an attempt at diversion.

You suggested that we avoid talking about China, as you di in an earlier post in this group.

And I understand why you wish to avoid the topic.

[MineralMan]

27. ..

[guillaumeb]

29. Much better.

Much, much better.

[Major Nikon]

22. Contrast that with someone who constantly substitutes dehumanizing rhetoric for discussion

When faced with a challenge to an assertion he can't even begin to support, the answer is the "choir" is just out to get him.

Many Christians believe atheists are tools of the devil so it's just not that hard to figure out where this comes from.

[MineralMan]

24. People act as they are. They have characteristic responses

to things. It never surprises me when people behave characteristically, somehow.

[guillaumeb]

31. I think much the same thing when reading the various attempts at diversion

here.

[MineralMan]

33. ..

[guillaumeb]

34. Again, much better.

An unexamined life is not worth living.


But we must each engage in such examination, such self evaluation. And we must try to avoid cognitive bias as we do so.

[MineralMan]

52. See this post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218303322

There's a discussion going on there, and it appears to be appreciated by those who have replied. I note that you have not replied in that thread, so I'm calling your attention to it as a Religion Group post that started a discussion.

And yes, I do post personal posts that illustrate things. If you read them closely, you will see what it is that they illustrate. I'm not cryptic about my intentions at all.

[Major Nikon]

18. 10 out of 80

Just sayin'

[MineralMan]

20. LOL!

Who's counting?

[Major Nikon]

36. I'm not counting

But if I were it's hard not to notice he's averaging more than 1 thread per week on the evils of "Chinese atheists" without actually being able to show the leaders of China are in fact, atheists, much less describe what atheism has to do with any of it. When asked to engage in a discussion about it, he writes it off as the "choir" is out to get him again.

[MineralMan]

48. Well, one week it's Islam, or Rumi, or Chinese atheists.

Anything to avoid discussing the ills brought on by organized religion. I have no idea about the religions beliefs or non-belief of Chinese leaders. I have plenty of stuff to think about closer to home. Let China deal with China. "Sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof." You can find that quote, attributed to Jesus, in Matthew. It's near the one one about the mote in someone else's eye while missing the beam in your own.

Most religious people sure don't seem to know much about the religions they follow, do they?

[guillaumeb]

51. Pure diversion.

Discuss the topic. Or, continue to divert.

[MineralMan]

53. Pure Balderdash.

You can look that up on Google.

[guillaumeb]

54. So you chose diversion. Understood. eom

[MineralMan]

55. ..

[DonCoquixote]

58. well, I mostly agree ith you, but

China, like it or not, is the nation that will have the greatest amount of power and influence. What Xi does in Beijing WILL be felt across the world, including our hometowns. The last thing we need is for people to be able to point to China as some sort of "success story" because that WILL be used in America.

Yes, America is on fire, but that does not mean we want to ignore the gasoline that will make the fire spread, with a few billion dollars to back it.

[MineralMan]

59. Yes, but we have very, very little influence on China.

Here in the US, we have just a couple of centuries, plus a little, of history. China has thousands of years of history. We cannot really influence Chinese culture. We have some economic influence, but China is such a large market that many nations are eager to supply it. As a manufacturing nation, its products are a large part of the world economy, as well, and growing.

While China is a powerful influence on the world, the US is not a powerful influence on China, frankly. We would do better to fix our own problems with human rights and social justice before pointing an accusing finger at China.

However, please understand that the original post in this thread was not designed as a call to action regarding China. Its author had a different goal in mind, I'm quite certain.

[guillaumeb]

60. Another mind reader.

So Chinese culture is rooted in intolerance?

[Major Nikon]

61. When you judge the intent of others...

You give up any credibility in complaining about your intent being judged.

Might want to put some thought into that the next time you make one of your dehumanizing accusations.

[guillaumeb]

62. Another meme.

Another attempt to define the "other". Tribalism 101.

[Major Nikon]

63. Another angle-bargle post

[guillaumeb]

64. I could explain it if you wish.

It is only "angle-bargle" if one is unfamiliar with the concept.

[Major Nikon]

66. A turd by any other name still smells like shit

[guillaumeb]

68. And misunderstanding by any other name,

is still misunderstanding.

[Major Nikon]

69. You misunderstood

[guillaumeb]

70. I do like that song.

[DonCoquixote]

65. our own problems

But there is the issue, because of China gets most of the money, than they will be able to affect our ability to solve out problems, especially if they are the new "success story." We might nto affect them, but we can make sure they do not affect us.

[MineralMan]

67. We'd all do better by being less belligerent.

That's what I think.