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guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 12:40 PM Jan 2019

In China, they're closing churches, jailing pastors - and even rewriting scripture

From the article:

China’s Communist party is intensifying religious persecution as Christianity’s popularity grows. A new state translation of the Bible will establish a ‘correct understanding’ of the text.

In late October, the pastor of one of China’s best-known underground churches asked this of his congregation: had they successfully spread the gospel throughout their city? “If tomorrow morning the Early Rain Covenant Church suddenly disappeared from the city of Chengdu, if each of us vanished into thin air, would this city be any different? Would anyone miss us?” said Wang Yi, leaning over his pulpit and pausing to let the question weigh on his audience. “I don’t know.”
Almost three months later, Wang’s hypothetical scenario is being put to the test. The church in south-west China has been shuttered and Wang and his wife, Jiang Rong, remain in detention after police arrested more than 100 Early Rain church members in December. Many of those who haven’t been detained are in hiding. Others have been sent away from Chengdu and barred from returning. Some, including Wang’s mother and his young son, are under close surveillance. Wang and his wife are being charged for “inciting subversion”, a crime that carries a penalty of up to 15 years in prison.


To read more:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/13/china-christians-religious-persecution-translation-bible

We already know about how the Chinese totalitarians re attacking the Muslim Uighurs, and here we read about ethnic Chinese Christians being targeted and surveilled.

What reason will the Chines Government give for this repression of theists?

Are they too to be called terrorists?
70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In China, they're closing churches, jailing pastors - and even rewriting scripture (Original Post) guillaumeb Jan 2019 OP
I think you should send the Chinese government a stern letter, Guy! MineralMan Jan 2019 #1
Do you prefer to ignore this example of repression and violence? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #2
Like most people, I pick my battles. MineralMan Jan 2019 #5
Funny thing,China is run by Wellstone ruled Jan 2019 #9
I actually know very little about how China is run. MineralMan Jan 2019 #10
Same for me. Wellstone ruled Jan 2019 #11
Well, Guy asked me what my business colleague thought about this. MineralMan Jan 2019 #13
As per the Teacher Kid, Wellstone ruled Jan 2019 #16
That's hardly surprising. MineralMan Jan 2019 #20
The Jesus Freeks would really go bonkers Wellstone ruled Jan 2019 #21
If that is what you are "getting", you should read them again. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #22
Government oppression of religion is no better than the state using religion for oppression. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2019 #3
We agree. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #4
You're absolutely right, Gil. Mariana Jan 2019 #6
Sanctions are one possibility. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #24
How would said sanctions be enforced, Gil? nt. Mariana Jan 2019 #49
By political action. eom guillaumeb Jan 2019 #55
How would that work, exactly? nt. Mariana Jan 2019 #61
That would make a great GD discussion. Start one. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #62
So much for dialogue. nt. Mariana Jan 2019 #63
You planted a seed. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #66
8th thread this month on the exact same subject Major Nikon Jan 2019 #7
Versus the countless threads dealing with cases of abuse? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #23
I suppose if someone posted about the exact same child raping priest 8 times in one month Major Nikon Jan 2019 #28
Thus speaks the definer. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #30
Thus speaks the name caller Major Nikon Jan 2019 #31
The rewriting of scripture happens all the time, AJT Jan 2019 #8
What's one more translation and edit, anyhow, right? MineralMan Jan 2019 #12
You are *supposed* to engage in the requisite DU virtue signaling, MM .. we have standards here (nt) mr_lebowski Jan 2019 #14
I believe I am well-known for not following usual standards here. MineralMan Jan 2019 #15
You are known for that & I, for one, like that about you. Keep on keeping on! (nt) mr_lebowski Jan 2019 #17
I am certain that your many anecdotal posts have some meaning as well. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #32
Your sarcasm is noted, Guy. MineralMan Jan 2019 #37
I am searching, guillaumeb Jan 2019 #42
What is their motivation? trotsky Jan 2019 #18
What is their motivation? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #25
But atheism isn't their motivation. trotsky Jan 2019 #26
And you speak for all atheists? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #27
I speak for the definition of atheism. trotsky Jan 2019 #34
No, you made a definitive statement. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #38
I sure did. trotsky Jan 2019 #39
OK. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #43
We've been over this countless times. trotsky Jan 2019 #50
Now I understand how you interpret my posts. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #56
You attack and spread hate and misinformation. trotsky Jan 2019 #65
It proves ideology motivates behavior. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #33
It proves that people behave as they wish, guillaumeb Jan 2019 #36
You admit religion is utterly worthless, then. trotsky Jan 2019 #40
You certainly can read many things into a response. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #44
Here's your response: trotsky Jan 2019 #47
Again, you read far too much into it. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #54
I have read nothing else into it. trotsky Jan 2019 #64
Refer to my previous post. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #67
Same old tired responses from you. trotsky Jan 2019 #68
Misframing, and ad hominem. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #69
Eye for an eye and judging. trotsky Jan 2019 #70
But people have free will. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #45
Right. n/t trotsky Jan 2019 #48
gee xtians have been rewriting their ownn scripture for 2000 years nt msongs Jan 2019 #19
Is there a point to this? eom guillaumeb Jan 2019 #29
you mentioned it in your post headline. nt msongs Jan 2019 #52
One type is done by the group. The other is forced conversion. eom guillaumeb Jan 2019 #58
Wow edhopper Jan 2019 #35
Whataboutism? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #41
it was meant as a snarky joke edhopper Jan 2019 #46
My failure. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #53
No edhopper Jan 2019 #59
That makes it better. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #60
If King James can do it, why can't the Central Committee? n/t TygrBright Jan 2019 #51
What is good for one is good for all? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #57

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
2. Do you prefer to ignore this example of repression and violence?
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 12:46 PM
Jan 2019

I understand that these stories do not fit what you prefer to see in this Group. Some people prefer a binary view of religion, others see the bigger picture.


Have you ever asked that Chinese acquaintance about all of these stories?

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
5. Like most people, I pick my battles.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 12:51 PM
Jan 2019

I live in a country where all religious people are free to practice their religions freely, except, perhaps Muslims, whose houses of worship are frequently attacked by misguided Christians. There are churches and other houses of worship on almost every other corner. I have no influence on China whatsoever. It does not offer the same level of freedom to religions that the United States does.

That is unfortunate for those who seek to worship a religion in that country. I do not believe that I have any influence whatever on that unfortunate situation. I have no relationship with China at all.

My colleague from China is a U.S. Citizen now. He is not a religious person at all. He has family that still lives in China, but they are not religious, either. He has not mentioned this situation to me. We generally discuss matters that involve the business we both participate in. I'll see him on Wednesday, and will ask him your question. I predict he will shrug and say that it is not his concern and that he has nothing to do with China any longer.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
9. Funny thing,China is run by
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:34 PM
Jan 2019

the Red Army. People have forgot about Mao and his Purge. It is after all China a Monolithic Nation.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
10. I actually know very little about how China is run.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:35 PM
Jan 2019

My primary focus is on government in this country.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
11. Same for me.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:46 PM
Jan 2019

Just put that out there hoping others understand what China is all about. We have a Niece who's Son teach wealthy Chinese Business People's preschoolers English. Being aware of local norms as well as rules is paramount for him. Understand he just received a extension on his Employment Contract for two more years.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
13. Well, Guy asked me what my business colleague thought about this.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:51 PM
Jan 2019

He's from China, but fled that country after the Tienanmen massacre and is now a U.S. Citizen who has his PhD from a US University. We're in business together. I know he's not religious, nor is his family. I'm not sure he knows any more about this situation than I do, frankly, but I'll ask him.

He still has family there, and travels to China occasionally, but when he's there, he spends all of his time with his aging parents.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
16. As per the Teacher Kid,
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:01 PM
Jan 2019

we last spoke to him in July when he was back for a month holiday,he spoke of the awareness of surveillance because of being a American working with a long term Visa. And his Acquaintances are artist's and theater types and Techies. So he is very aware as well as his friends.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
20. That's hardly surprising.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:41 PM
Jan 2019

China is all about preserving its cultural and political system. So, anyone who is not in line with that gets watched and restricted if they go past some point.

Apparently, it is the independent Christian "house" churches that are under scrutiny and restrictions - the ones that refuse to become "official" Christian churches. That's what I'm getting from Guy's many posts on the topic.

China has a very restrictive political system. None of us would do well in it, I'm quite certain. Certainly I would feel very restricted and limited by such a system.

However, using China's restrictions on religion as a whataboutism when anyone brings up some restriction imposed BY a religious group somewhere else is ridiculous. There is no equivalency, nor any connection.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
21. The Jesus Freeks would really go bonkers
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:50 PM
Jan 2019

if they visited China and found their favorite so called house of hate turned into a Museum . Another topic for another day.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
22. If that is what you are "getting", you should read them again.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:59 PM
Jan 2019

The leaders of the Chinese Government have decided that all theists will follow the guidelines that are approved by the Chinese Government. In essence, the Government will determine what is the approved theology.

If you choose to frame this as whataboutism, that is your decision. But invoking whataboutism in this way is incorrect because that would require an intent on my part to divert from a topic. and I freely admit that many theists behave in the same manner when they have power.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
4. We agree.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 12:50 PM
Jan 2019

Totalitarians behave as totalitarians. And if we really value liberty, and tolerance, those values should not stop at the US borders.

Mariana

(15,131 posts)
6. You're absolutely right, Gil.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:11 PM
Jan 2019

What do you propose be done about the situation in China? Do you have any ideas on how to improve things there?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
24. Sanctions are one possibility.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:03 PM
Jan 2019

But that would require placing what we claim to value as a country with the value of Chinese trade.

And we all know what capitalists value the most.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
28. I suppose if someone posted about the exact same child raping priest 8 times in one month
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:14 PM
Jan 2019

Pretty much everyone would find it a good example of shitposting.

Please do continue with your false equivalence tho. It's the only thing you're really good at.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
30. Thus speaks the definer.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:16 PM
Jan 2019

And I understand why you wish to continue avoiding the actual substance of the actual post in favor of insults.

AJT

(5,240 posts)
8. The rewriting of scripture happens all the time,
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:30 PM
Jan 2019

it's an especially popular pastime for oppressive governments religious and otherwise.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
12. What's one more translation and edit, anyhow, right?
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:47 PM
Jan 2019

It seems like every sect of Christianity wants to edit the "word of God" to suit their own ideas.

Make no mistake, it's not right for China to restrict the religious worship of its citizens. That's wrong for them to do. However, as someone else asked of guillaumeb, I wonder what he thinks can or should be done to change what China is doing. We're all aware of this problem, to be sure, but what to do about it remains a mystery.

Perhaps he'll provide us with some guidance. Maybe he can give us a model letter to send to Xi, explaining how he should change how the country is run. I don't know.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
14. You are *supposed* to engage in the requisite DU virtue signaling, MM .. we have standards here (nt)
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:53 PM
Jan 2019

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
15. I believe I am well-known for not following usual standards here.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 01:59 PM
Jan 2019

Expecting that to change is an exercise in futility, I'm sure.

I must say that I'm at a loss, though, to understand guillaumeb's frequent posts regarding religious oppression in China. He never seems to offer any suggestions as to what we might do to change that. In fact, it seems as though he posts such things whenever someone points out something a Christian group or individual has done that is somehow harmful. Perhaps he's trying to tell us something by presenting some sort of equivalency message.

However, it's not directly equivalent at all. Today, the China post appears to be related to a post about some Christians in Israel throwing Molotov cocktails to protest a satirical work of art that depicts Ronald MacDonald nailed to a cross. Apparently those Molotov cocktails are justified in Israel because China has shut down a church. I can't see the equivalence, but Guy can, apparently.

It's often confusing around here, so I just muddle along as best as I'm able.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
32. I am certain that your many anecdotal posts have some meaning as well.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:17 PM
Jan 2019

I am searching for that meaning.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
42. I am searching,
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:26 PM
Jan 2019

but my poor theistic brain, unused to logic and insight, may not be equal to the task.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
18. What is their motivation?
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:22 PM
Jan 2019

It's definitely not atheism, because there is nothing in atheism to inspire or command any of that.

So what is it?

And more importantly, why do you keep beating and beating everyone in this forum over the head with the behavior of the Communist Chinese government? What are you trying to prove? (Hint: you're not proving what you really really REALLY wish you could.)

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
25. What is their motivation?
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:09 PM
Jan 2019

Like all totalitarians, their goal is power. And control. In this case, the totalitarians are atheists.

What does it prove? You tell me. My view is that it shows that no matter the beliefs, or positions if you prefer, people behave in the same way.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
26. But atheism isn't their motivation.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:11 PM
Jan 2019

Religion CAN be a motivation for doing horrible things.

Power CAN be a motivation for doing horrible things.

Atheism cannot.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
27. And you speak for all atheists?
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:14 PM
Jan 2019

No, you are giving your own view, a view that eliminates atheism as a motivating factor. Perhaps some atheists hate theists so much that they see religion as evil. Or as a rival to be eliminated.

A nice try at eliminating a possible factor, and I understand why you wish to do so.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
34. I speak for the definition of atheism.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:19 PM
Jan 2019

Where's the holy book of atheism, g? Where are its commandments? What are its teachings?

After you've identified all of those things, then you must demonstrate that all the Chinese leaders are atheists.

After you've done that, then explain how their atheism motivates them to do the things you post about.

You've got quite the challenge ahead of you. I bet you're going to refuse to do it, because you know you can't.

And you are no Christian. You judge others, and you believe in "eye for an eye" justice.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
38. No, you made a definitive statement.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:22 PM
Jan 2019

You spoke for atheists. Not some atheists, but atheists.

And your claim is unprovable because you have no insight into what motivates atheists as a class of humans.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
39. I sure did.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:23 PM
Jan 2019

Because there is no teaching or message of atheism, by definition.

What part are you having trouble understanding, g?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
50. We've been over this countless times.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:43 PM
Jan 2019

You have specifically stated YOUR motivation for constantly posting about actions taken by the Chinese government is that you feel there are too many posts talking about the RCC child sex abuse scandals.

Your message is clear. You don't want people to talk about the negative aspects of religion, so you keep trying different things to silence the viewpoints you don't like.

You insult, name-call, and smear using your favorite terms like "choir" and "11th commandment" and other nonsense.

You post about the Chinese government over and over, hoping to paint the false equivalence picture for people that says "Atheists are doing this horrible thing, so no one can blame religion for anything."

Your motivations are clear.

Now go ahead and insult me and/or my intelligence again. Or make a snarky lame comeback. You know, your usual responses, instead of actually just fucking saying what it is you actually mean.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
56. Now I understand how you interpret my posts.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:10 PM
Jan 2019

Interesting how another poster who is currently posting in the religion group is receiving much the same treatment as I am.

It might be a coincidence, or it might be a validation of my earlier observation about a Commandment that shall remain unnumbered. And the requirements of that unnumbered Commandment.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
65. You attack and spread hate and misinformation.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 09:36 AM
Jan 2019

You support "eye for an eye" justice - lashing out at people after you've judged them. Everyone you've slammed as being part of a "choir" has asked you to stop - but you keep using the term to insult and smear. Same with your commandment nonsense. You dehumanize and demonize. Why do you do this? Is this how Christians are supposed to behave? Are you setting a good example?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
40. You admit religion is utterly worthless, then.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:25 PM
Jan 2019

People are going to behave as they wish no matter what.

LOL gil, you did it again.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
47. Here's your response:
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:38 PM
Jan 2019

"It proves that people behave as they wish, and use whatever suits them to validate that behavior."

You didn't qualify it AT ALL. You just said people are going to behave as they wish - nothing will change that. Not even religion.

You destroyed your own position, g. At this point you must ENJOY humiliating yourself because I really don't see how else you could bear to continue posting here.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
54. Again, you read far too much into it.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 05:07 PM
Jan 2019

And the reading, no surprise, allows you to claim that I said or implied something.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
64. I have read nothing else into it.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 09:29 AM
Jan 2019

I have taken your words at face value.

You don't like what you said and are trying to squirm out of the consequences.

Too bad.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
68. Same old tired responses from you.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 03:17 PM
Jan 2019

Can't defend your point, just refer to previous post and imply the other person is stupid.

Has never worked for you, but you keep trying. No wonder no one takes you seriously.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
45. But people have free will.
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:31 PM
Jan 2019

Except for when it is inconvenient to the point Billy here is trying to make.

edhopper

(34,880 posts)
35. Wow
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:20 PM
Jan 2019

Last edited Mon Jan 14, 2019, 06:09 PM - Edit history (1)

the Chinese are finally catching up to the Catholic Church. It's just taken them a few hundred years.

edhopper

(34,880 posts)
46. it was meant as a snarky joke
Mon Jan 14, 2019, 03:33 PM
Jan 2019

not a rebuttal to criticism of the Chinese.

The Chinese Government are not good guys.

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