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MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:02 PM Jan 2019

Of course religion is connected to tribalism.

That's where it started. Humans tend to naturally form groups, starting with the family group and expanding as needed to survive. We don't do well as solo creatures, really.

As groups grow larger, though, some sort of order is needed to keep the group working together toward common goals. That order can be provided by a powerful chieftain who makes rules for however many people he can control. It's a precarious job, though, being chieftain of a tribe. Often, force is required to enforce whatever rules the chieftain makes, and surrounding oneself with strongmen often leads to one of them deciding that he should be the chieftain.

Religion can serve a similar purpose. Human individuals have lots of questions. It's our nature. We wonder about things. So, in most groups the size of a tribe, there's typically a clever person who is good at telling stories. Not only are stories entertaining, they can be used to explain stuff that isn't immediately obvious. So, a clever story-teller gains a different sort of power within a tribe. He or she explains the sunrise and the moon and the stars and all that stuff, through imaginative stories.

Smart chieftains see the effect of the story-teller and reward him or her for telling stories about why the rules are what the rules are. A bit of the choice parts of whatever animal is on the fire can go a long way toward getting the good stories told that help the chieftain maintain his position without having to kill too many of the tribe.

Then there are gods. They're also very useful. Typically, in basic cultures, there are lots of them. One for each inexplicable thing that needs explaining. The story-teller can easily come up with tales about those gods and how they came to empower whatever things need empowering. Gods for the sky, the sun, the moon, that pesky volcano over there, and the lion that ate your grandmother. It's all explained by powerful gods that have different priorities sometimes than the tribe has.

Sometimes a god can be credited with the power the chieftain needs, too. That's very helpful to the chieftain, who is often beset by jealousies and competition. As always, the story-teller can be counted on to fill in the important details.

And so it goes. As tribes encounter each other, they can have a battle over territory or sit down and combine their numbers, all the better to exploit the local resources. When tribes join together, though, their story-tellers may have different stories. Merging those is an important aspect of assembling a larger tribe. Often, a simplification of religion can help. Anyhow, some groups succeed and others don't. It depends.

In all cases, though, the religions developed by the story-tellers must reflect the general attitudes of the tribes and, of course, their chieftains. In larger groups, one chieftain generally ends up on the top of the heap, so there is some direction and one set of rules to follow. The wise and clever story-teller handles getting this across to the group.

And that's the essential story of religion. Gods are created by story-tellers to suit the needs of a particular group, its chieftain, and the surrounding natural environment. Over time, those things all change. New groups are enveloped by old groups, populations grow and shrink, and territories expand or diminish. The gods adapt, as they must, through new stories that derive from old stories.

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Of course religion is connected to tribalism. (Original Post) MineralMan Jan 2019 OP
Lots of things are connected to tribalism. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #1
Yes. Only religions can span those time periods. MineralMan Jan 2019 #2
Philosophy, art and science can span those time periods marylandblue Jan 2019 #4
As academic interests, yes. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #10
That's only because you don't live in my neighborhood 😀 marylandblue Jan 2019 #18
Sounds dangerous. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #20
All three are part of the story-telling part of tribalism, really. MineralMan Jan 2019 #19
Politics is "war by other means," that is marylandblue Jan 2019 #5
It's supposed to be, at least. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #13
The basic framework I described in the OP MineralMan Jan 2019 #22
Sounds like you've never been to a Yankees game Major Nikon Jan 2019 #6
More than a few, actually. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #9
Patriotism is tribalism. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #24
Women. littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #25
By both women *and* minorities. nt TwistOneUp Jan 2019 #28
Thank you for the referral. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #30
Yes. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #31
And what replaces it? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #33
Nonsensical question. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #44
Patriotism does not always lead to war. marylandblue Jan 2019 #32
They also provided banking services for the Nazis. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #34
Like I said, their patriotism did not lead to war. marylandblue Jan 2019 #35
True. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #39
This is just a case of special pleading, marylandblue Jan 2019 #42
No, this is a case of every group approaching things as they feel best. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #45
You said "And patriotism has always led to war." marylandblue Jan 2019 #46
Agreed that the word "generally" instead of "always" would be better. eom guillaumeb Jan 2019 #47
I think that is more important than it may seem marylandblue Jan 2019 #48
An excellent point, and I agree. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #49
Religion tends to support a patriarchal family structure marylandblue Jan 2019 #52
Less prevalent? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #53
Does the government say wives must submit to their husbands? marylandblue Jan 2019 #54
Society does, in many cases. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #55
Yes, society has long been patriarchal, but we've improved. marylandblue Jan 2019 #56
Yes, we have, and yes, some do. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #57
Well not in my family, and I'm sure not in yours marylandblue Jan 2019 #58
Honest assessments of your country edhopper Jan 2019 #37
Exactly. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #50
For a certain segment of the population, yes edhopper Jan 2019 #51
I agree generally, but you left out one powerful motivator cilla4progress Jan 2019 #3
Early tribal humans feared pretty much everything. MineralMan Jan 2019 #7
Cool.... cilla4progress Jan 2019 #8
It's way complicated now. The United States has about MineralMan Jan 2019 #12
Modern people are afraid of pretty much everything, too. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #15
We humans survive because we're fearful, I think. MineralMan Jan 2019 #16
I think it's a mixed bag. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #21
If I were still just 50 years old, I'd be working on books MineralMan Jan 2019 #23
Yes, it's possible civilization will collapse, but I think our species will survive it. marylandblue Jan 2019 #29
Except that we may have ruined MineralMan Jan 2019 #36
The Old Testament is all about tribes. MineralMan Jan 2019 #11
The problem is tribalism married to politics Major Nikon Jan 2019 #14
Yes. Also, we're all part of multiple tribes, often with conflicting rules. MineralMan Jan 2019 #17
Thanks for the post, MineralMan. littlemissmartypants Jan 2019 #26
Oh Yeah? Well, My god can beat up Your god. TwistOneUp Jan 2019 #27
If we agree that religion is just another edhopper Jan 2019 #38
Yep. Iggo Jan 2019 #40
Yes. It's all derived from storytelling within tribal cultures. MineralMan Jan 2019 #41
So it seems to me, but I'm an atheist, so it would, I suppose. MineralMan Jan 2019 #43
Interesting posit Mineral Man. The connection as I see it between religion and tribalism c-rational Jan 2019 #59

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
1. Lots of things are connected to tribalism.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:08 PM
Jan 2019

Politics. Team sports. Cars. Beer.

But few of them rarely lead to widespread turmoil and even fewer still are so entrenched they overstay their welcome by several centuries.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
2. Yes. Only religions can span those time periods.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:10 PM
Jan 2019

That's why they exist, I think. That doesn't make the stories any more true, of course. But, it does explain some things. Story-tellers end up shaping the course of civilization, it seems. The chieftains die, but the stories live on, with changes, mutations, and sometimes wholesale re-tellings, but they live on.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
4. Philosophy, art and science can span those time periods
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:17 PM
Jan 2019

We still read Greek philosophers and plays. We still tell time using the Babylonian number system. But religion does seem to retain a hold on the masses that other things can't match.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
10. As academic interests, yes.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:33 PM
Jan 2019

We all read Plato in school, but I haven't met many Platonists walking the streets in search of Aristotleans.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
19. All three are part of the story-telling part of tribalism, really.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:47 PM
Jan 2019

We still read the Bible, too, and it's from a far different type of culture than we have now. But, we're still getting explanations from the story-tellers and still following the orders of the chieftains.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
5. Politics is "war by other means," that is
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:20 PM
Jan 2019

a way to settle disputes without violence. Religion is more of a two-edged sword. Sometimes settling disputes, sometimes causing them.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
13. It's supposed to be, at least.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:40 PM
Jan 2019

In practice, politics often takes on the more abhorrent qualities of religion. Typically, the more authoritarian the government, the more religion-like it becomes.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
22. The basic framework I described in the OP
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:50 PM
Jan 2019

is still there, but everything is far more complex now. It takes some serious thinking to put politics, warfare, nationalism and other elements together and understand where the chieftains and the story-tellers are now. Each of us is part of multiple, often conflicting tribes now. It ain't simple.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
24. Patriotism is tribalism.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 02:55 PM
Jan 2019

And patriotism has always led to war. So has patriotism also overstayed its welcome?

If so, what will or should replace it?

littlemissmartypants

(25,541 posts)
25. Women.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 04:07 PM
Jan 2019

I personally would like to see us return to a more matriarchal, goddess focused, society. Me dreaming again.

Have you read
Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians
?

From the Inside Flap

Why Were the Teachings of the Original Christians Brutally Suppressed by the Roman Church?

- Because they portray Jesus and Mary Magdalene as mythic figures based on the Pagan Godman and Goddess
- Because they show that the gospel story is a spiritual allegory encapsulating a profound philosophy that leads to mythical enlightenment
- Because they have the power to turn the world inside out and transform life into an exploration of consciousness
Drawing on modern scholarship, the authors of the international bestseller The Jesus Mysteries decode the secret teachings of the original Christians for the first time in almost two millennia and theorize about who the original Christians really were and what they actually taught. In addition, the book explores the many myths of Jesus and the Goddess and unlocks the lost secret teachings of Christian mysticism, which promise happiness and immortality to those who attain the state of Gnosis, or enlightenment. This daring and controversial book recovers the ancient wisdom of the original Christians and demonstrates its relevance to us today.

About the Author
Timothy Freke (left) has a degree in philosophy, is the author of more than twenty books, and is an authority on world spirituality.

Peter Gandy (right) has an M.A. in classical civilization, specializing in the ancient mystery religions. They have coauthored three previous publications: The Jesus Mysteries, The Complete Guide to World Mysticism, and Hermetica.

For more information on the authors, their books, lectures, and seminars, visit their website: www.jesusmysteries.demon.co.uk
~~~~~
Here's another resource which supports the notion that a society that is focused on patriarchal supremacy is doomed to failure.

Sex and World Peace

From Amazon Books: Sex and World Peace unsettles a variety of assumptions in political and security discourse, demonstrating that the security of women is a vital factor in the security of the state and its incidence of conflict and war.

The authors compare micro-level gender violence and macro-level state peacefulness in global settings, supporting their findings with detailed analyses and color maps. Harnessing an immense amount of data, they call attention to discrepancies between national laws protecting women and the enforcement of those laws, and they note the adverse effects on state security of abnormal sex ratios favoring males, the practice of polygamy, and inequitable realities in family law, among other gendered aggressions.

The authors find that the treatment of women informs human interaction at all levels of society. Their research challenges conventional definitions of security and democracy and shows that the treatment of gender, played out on the world stage, informs the true clash of civilizations. In terms of resolving these injustices, the authors examine top-down and bottom-up approaches to healing wounds of violence against women, as well as ways to rectify inequalities in family law and the lack of parity in decision-making councils. Emphasizing the importance of an R2PW, or state responsibility to protect women, they mount a solid campaign against women's systemic insecurity, which effectively unravels the security of all.
~~~~~
Sex And World Peace: How The Treatment Of Women Affects Development And Security
Kate Diamond

https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2012/05/sex-and-world-peace-how-the-treatment-of-women-affects-development-and-security/

What we have discovered is that the very best predictor of how insecure and unstable a nation is not its level of democracy, it’s not its level of wealth, it’s not what ‘Huntington civilization’ it belongs to, but is in fact best predicted by the level of violence against women in the society,” said Valerie Hudson, co-author of Sex and World Peace, at an April 26 book launch at the Wilson Center. [Video Below]


https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2012/05/sex-and-world-peace-how-the-treatment-of-women-affects-development-and-security/

Of course there's always more at the link.
~~~~~
Direct answer from me to your query would be: society is fluid, just like gender. The laws of diminishing returns are more powerful than we think. As the worlds people are forced into migration by hunger and other predicaments, which are directly related to climate change, societal formations will morph and reflect the changes in the many populations that will be forced to work together for survival.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
30. Thank you for the referral.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 05:11 PM
Jan 2019

I will look for it.

And yes, patriarchy is one foundation of some societies. And it is based on domination.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
35. Like I said, their patriotism did not lead to war.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 06:47 PM
Jan 2019

It does not mean they are a nation of angels or pacifists.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
39. True.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 07:39 PM
Jan 2019

But war can be fought on other fields.

Perhaps their relative size and vulnerable position made them conclude that war was not a feasible approach.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
45. No, this is a case of every group approaching things as they feel best.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 05:17 PM
Jan 2019

Which does NOT detract from the general point.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
46. You said "And patriotism has always led to war."
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 05:34 PM
Jan 2019

And I found a case in which it did not. Which implies it is not a necessary outcome of patriotism, but something that may or may not occur depending on conditions.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
48. I think that is more important than it may seem
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 05:53 PM
Jan 2019

If there are historical exceptions due to certain conditions, we may be able to reproduce those conditions and reduce or eliminate future wars. And if this is so, then we may also be able to identify factors that distinguish religion from patriotism as to their propensity to cause war.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
49. An excellent point, and I agree.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 05:59 PM
Jan 2019

But there is also the human tendency to dominate, and exert power over others. A tendency that is manifested at the most basic level in the family unit.

Patriarchal domination is the first part of the dominance pattern.

My view.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
52. Religion tends to support a patriarchal family structure
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 06:51 PM
Jan 2019

Whereas patriotism doesn't seem as interested in how your family operates. So that's a strike against religion that is less prevalent in patriotism.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
55. Society does, in many cases.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 07:25 PM
Jan 2019

Not always openly, but the Constitution did not originally allow for female suffrage.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
56. Yes, society has long been patriarchal, but we've improved.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 07:34 PM
Jan 2019

Meanwhile, the only people still arguing that women should be subordinate are religious people.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
57. Yes, we have, and yes, some do.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 07:39 PM
Jan 2019

But even with the improvement, women are still treated as second class citizens.

The eternal words versus actions factor.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
58. Well not in my family, and I'm sure not in yours
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 07:56 PM
Jan 2019

But if we were conservative religionists, it would be a requirement. Which is my point.

edhopper

(34,880 posts)
37. Honest assessments of your country
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 07:38 PM
Jan 2019

and trying to improve the lives of it's people without "My Country, right or wrong".

No nation is the "Best Country on Earth."

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
50. Exactly.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 06:01 PM
Jan 2019

But realizing these things that you say is difficult. It runs counter to the generally accepted narrative.

cilla4progress

(25,936 posts)
3. I agree generally, but you left out one powerful motivator
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:15 PM
Jan 2019

(though perhaps implied):

F-E-A-R!

A weapon, a tool, a control mechanism, at the base in part of our wondering, a manipulator, visceral and eminently powerful in the human psyche.

I'd like to read your discussion of how and where fear ties in here.



MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
7. Early tribal humans feared pretty much everything.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:24 PM
Jan 2019

It was dangerous being a human. The tribes developed because of fear, since individual humans don't survive well.

The chieftains, generally, also employed fear to create their power over the tribe. Violating the chieftain's rules was generally punishable by death. So, the security of the tribe was tempered by the fear of the chieftain, in most cases. The simple answer was to follow the rules so you had the protection of the tribe.

The story-teller's job was to moderate the fear of the tribe, though stories that explained things and the reasons for things. We are calmed often by stories that help us to understand. Why did Barm die yesterday after being ill? The story-teller knows and will explain it to you. An evil spirit within him was the cause, in most cases. If you do the things the story-teller tells you to do, and obey the chieftain, though, you may escape Barm's fate.

Fear was a constant in early human tribes. Exploiting that fear and helping allay it is the path to power for the chieftain and the story-teller, who soon also became the shaman, who had rituals designed to allay fears.

The Chieftain is a strong person. The story-teller is a smart person. Between the two, the success of the tribe is possible. Reading anthropological writings will let you see that story again and again. There is always a Chieftain and a story-teller or shaman.

cilla4progress

(25,936 posts)
8. Cool....
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:30 PM
Jan 2019

thanks.

Who have these roles in America right now, in trumps admin?

Can US now be seen as one tribe on any level?

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
12. It's way complicated now. The United States has about
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:38 PM
Jan 2019

320 million people. They live in all sorts of environments. That's way too big a tribe to control, frankly. We have laws and other mechanisms that attempt to provide control, but it's all too complicated really, and people don't agree with the rules everywhere. We're in difficult times, we humans, these days.

There are too many of us, I think, in the tribe.

So, no, I don't think that tribalism works on that scale. Not very well at all.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
15. Modern people are afraid of pretty much everything, too.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:41 PM
Jan 2019

Except perhaps all the things they should be afraid of.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
16. We humans survive because we're fearful, I think.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:44 PM
Jan 2019

However, our fears are not always rational. As you say, we often fear the wrong things. We're still the same human animals we were when tribes had maybe 100 people in them. We still have those basic fears in us, along with the same basic reactions to them.

The world, though, is a far different place. We're still the same hairless primates, living in a world we've managed to create. But, we're not really that well equipped for it.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
21. I think it's a mixed bag.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:50 PM
Jan 2019

Evolution bred us to be fearful of things that kill us before we get the chance to reproduce. This has the benefit of giving us lives longer than most lions might like, but on the other side the coin we very rarely find ourselves adequately afraid of more existential threats.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
23. If I were still just 50 years old, I'd be working on books
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:58 PM
Jan 2019

about all this stuff. I'm not, though. I'm 73, and don't have the time or energy to develop my thoughts as I'd like to. So, I just sketch things out.

Civilization has outpaced evolution dramatically. We have not evolved significantly enough to adapt to current conditions. We didn't have a few tens of millions of years to do that. So, now, we've poisoned our planet, run out of space, and are still functioning like we live in small warlike tribes. It doesn't fucking work.

There's a significant chance that, within another 10-20 generations, we may end up being reduced to living in small tribes once again. I wonder if we'll survive that as a species. I don't know. We're sort of on the verge of a global disaster, I think, one of our own making.

That is why I did not reproduce. We've been warned already of the path we're on. I listened to the warnings. Soon enough, I'll be gone, so I won't find out where humans end up. Oh, well...

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
29. Yes, it's possible civilization will collapse, but I think our species will survive it.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 04:12 PM
Jan 2019

We'll go back to a more natural state, and we were pretty good at that.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
11. The Old Testament is all about tribes.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:36 PM
Jan 2019

Nomadic wanderers, mostly, goatherds and shepherds. There were chieftains and story-tellers and breaking the rules got you stoned to death by your fellow tribespeople.

Later on, those tribes got together, killed off other tribes, took their women, inhabited their cities, and formed larger cultural groups. The story-tellers adapted their stories to suit each new situation. Sometimes, they borrowed stories from other tribes and changed them around to suit their own needs. That's why so many stories are similar.

Religion expands and adapts to suit the needs of the culture it came from. In many ways, religion is having severe problems adapting to modern civilization. It may be nearing the end of its usefulness, but it will go down fighting, I guarantee.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
14. The problem is tribalism married to politics
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:40 PM
Jan 2019

In particular the tribal alliances that tend to take over a party. The modern GOP is now essentially the party of theocracy.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
17. Yes. Also, we're all part of multiple tribes, often with conflicting rules.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 12:45 PM
Jan 2019

It's damned confusing is what it is, and we're in over our heads more than a little bit, really.

edhopper

(34,880 posts)
38. If we agree that religion is just another
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 07:39 PM
Jan 2019

manifestation of tribalism, doesn't that negate any spiritual foundation for a religion?

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
41. Yes. It's all derived from storytelling within tribal cultures.
Tue Jan 15, 2019, 07:42 PM
Jan 2019

Last edited Wed Jan 16, 2019, 09:19 AM - Edit history (1)

The twelve tribes of Israel, for example.

MineralMan

(147,606 posts)
43. So it seems to me, but I'm an atheist, so it would, I suppose.
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 09:18 AM
Jan 2019

It has been my opinion for more than 50 years that all deities are the inventions of ancient storytellers in various tribal cultures. Those inventions have gotten altered and refined over the past few thousand years, but still bear the marks of the original storytellers.

Any spiritualism is, I believe, in the mind of the individual, who assigns such feelings to his or her beliefs.

And, as is always stated in my signature line, that is my opinion.

c-rational

(2,870 posts)
59. Interesting posit Mineral Man. The connection as I see it between religion and tribalism
Wed Jan 16, 2019, 08:00 PM
Jan 2019

is that both involve humans. Religions are about the relationship between humans and the supernatural or spirit world, while tribalism relates to the rules among a group of humans. I do believe that much of what were early spiritual teachings became nothing more than shared rituals, and thus much of what passes for modern day religious beliefs is little more than tribalism.

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