Religion
Related: About this forumWho made the world?
Who made the world?
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/577380646/beloved-poet-mary-oliver-who-believed-poetry-mustn-t-be-fancy-dies-at-83
Beloved Poet Mary Oliver, Who Believed Poetry 'Mustn't Be Fancy,' Dies At 83
She wrote about one such walk in her poem "The Summer Day":
Who made the world?
Who made the swan, and the black bear?
Who made the grasshopper?
This grasshopper, I mean-
the one who has flung herself out of the grass,
the one who is eating sugar out of my hand,
who is moving her jaws back and forth instead of up and down-
who is gazing around with her enormous and complicated eyes.
Now she lifts her pale forearms and thoroughly washes her face.
Now she snaps her wings open, and floats away.
I don't know exactly what a prayer is.
I do know how to pay attention, how to fall down
into the grass, how to kneel down in the grass,
how to be idle and blessed, how to stroll through the fields,
which is what I have been doing all day.
Tell me, what else should I have done?
Doesn't everything die at last, and too soon?
Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?
Many of Oliver's poems are a joyful celebration of nature, but she also wrote about the abuse she suffered as a child and her first brush with death from lung cancer. Ruth Franklin says her work is infused with a deep spirituality. "The way she writes these poems that feel like prayers, she channels the voice of somebody who it seems might possibly have access to God. I think her work does give a sense of someone who is in tune with the deepest mysteries of the universe."
In her poem "When Death Comes," Oliver wrote this about the inevitable: "When it's over, I want to say all my life/ I was a bride married to amazement."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=_WNZUeRzBCE
True Dough
(20,344 posts)I hear the parallels. Maybe Lana borrowed from the tone of the poem and the video creators used this Lana Del Rey production as their model:
Lana Del Rey
I've been out on that open road
You can be my full time, daddy white and gold
Singing blues has been getting old
You can be my full time, baby
Hot or cold
Don't break me down
I've been travelin' too long
I've been trying too hard
With one pretty song
I hear the birds on the summer breeze, I drive fast
I am alone in the night
Been tryin' hard not to get into trouble, but I
I've got a war in my mind
So, I just ride
Just ride, I just ride, I just ride
Dying young and I'm playing hard
That's the way my father made his life an art
Drink all day and we talk 'til dark
That's the way the road doves do it, ride 'til dark
Don't leave me now
Don't say good bye
Don't turn around
Leave me high and dry
I hear the birds on the summer breeze, I drive fast
I am alone in the night
Been tryin' hard not to get in trouble, but I
I've got a war in my mind
I just ride
Just ride, I just ride, I just ride
I'm tired of feeling like I'm fucking crazy
I'm tired of driving 'till I see stars in my eyes
I look up to hear myself saying, baby
Too much I strive, I just ride
I hear the birds on the summer breeze, I drive fast
I am alone in the night
Been tryin' hard not to get in trouble, but I
I've got a war in my mind
I just ride
Just ride, I just ride, I just ride
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)And I love you for posting it.
mia
(8,420 posts)Thank you.
akraven
(1,975 posts)And her amazement will continue!
alittlelark
(18,913 posts)Hopi Creation Myth
The world at first was endless space in which existed only the Creator, Taiowa. This world had no time, no shape, and no life, except in the mind of the Creator. Eventually the infinite creator created the finite in Sotuknang, whom he called his nephew and whom he created as his agent to establish nine universes. Sotuknang gathered together matter from the endless space to make the nine solid worlds.
Then the Creator instructed him to gather together the waters from the endless space and place them on these worlds to make land and sea. When Sotuknang had done that, the Creator instructed him to gather together air to make winds and breezes on these worlds.
The fourth act of creation with which the Creator charged Sotuknang was the creation of life. Sotuknang went to the world that was to first host life and there he created Spider Woman, and he gave her the power to create life. First Spider Woman took some earth and mixed it with saliva to make two beings. Over them she sang the Creation Song, and they came to life. She instructed one of them, Poqanghoya, to go across the earth and solidify it. She instructed the other, Palongawhoya, to send out sound to resonate through the earth, so that the earth vibrated with the energy of the Creator. Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya were dispatched to the poles of the earth to keep it rotating.
Then Spider Woman made all the plants, the flowers, the bushes, and the trees. Likewise she made the birds and animals, again using earth and singing the Creation Song. When all this was done, she made human beings, using yellow, red, white, and black earth mixed with her saliva. Singing the Creation Song, she made four men, and then in her own form she made four women. At first they had a soft spot in their foreheads, and although it solidified, it left a space through which they could hear the voice of Sotuknang and their Creator. Because these people could not speak, Spider Woman called on Sotuknang, who gave them four languages. His only instructions were for them to respect their Creator and to live in harmony with him.
These people spread across the earth and multiplied. Despite their four languages, in those days they could understand each others thoughts anyway, and for many years they and the animals lived together as one. Eventually, however, they began to divide, both the people from the animals and the people from each other, as they focused on their differences rather than their similarities. As division and suspicion became more widespread, only a few people from each of the four groups still remembered their Creator. Sotuknang appeared before these few and told them that he and the Creator would have to destroy this world, and that these few who remembered the Creator must travel across the land, following a cloud and a star, to find refuge.
These people began their treks from the places where they lived, and when they finally converged Sotuknang appeared again. He opened a huge ant mound and told these people to go down in it to live with the ants while he destroyed the world with fire, and he told them to learn from the ants while they were there. The people went down and lived with the ants, who had storerooms of food that they had gathered in the summer, as well as chambers in which the people could live. This went on for quite a while, because after Sotuknang cleansed the world with fire it took a long time for the world to cool off. As the ants food ran low, the people refused the food, but the ants kept feeding them and only tightened their own belts, which is why ants have such tiny waists today.
Finally Sotuknang was done making the second world, which was not quite as beautiful as the first. Again he admonished the people to remember their Creator as they and the ants that had hosted them spread across the earth. The people multiplied rapidly and soon covered the entire earth. They did not live with the animals, however, because the animals in this second world were wild and unfriendly. Instead the people lived in villages and built roads between these, so that trade sprang up. They stored goods and traded those for goods from elsewhere, and soon they were trading for things they did not need.
As their desire to have more and more grew, they began to forget their Creator, and soon wars over resources and trade were breaking out between villages. Finally Sotuknang appeared before the few people who still remembered the Creator, and again he sent them to live with the ants while he destroyed this corrupt world. This time he ordered Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya to abandon their posts at the poles, and soon the world spun out of control and rolled over. Mountains slid and fell, and lakes and rivers splashed across the land as the earth tumbled, and finally the earth froze over into nothing but ice.
This went on for years, and again the people lived with the ants. Finally Sotuknang sent Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya back to the poles to resume the normal rotation of the earth, and soon the ice melted and life returned. Sotuknang called the people up from their refuge, and he introduced them to the third world that he had made. Again he admonished the people to remember their Creator as they spread across the land. As they did so, they multiplied quickly, even more quickly than before, and soon they were living in large cities and developing into separate nations.
With so many people and so many nations, soon there was war, and some of the nations made huge shields on which they could fly, and from these flying shields they attacked other cities. When Sotuknang saw all this war and destruction, he resolved to destroy this world quickly before it corrupted the few people who still remembered the Creator. He called on Spider Woman to gather those few and, along the shore, she placed each person with a little food in the hollow stem of a reed. When she had done this, Sotuknang let loose a flood that destroyed the warring cities and the world on which they lived.
Once the rocking of the waves ceased, Spider Woman unsealed the reeds so the people could see. They floated on the water for many days, looking for land, until finally they drifted to an island. On the island they built little reed boats and set sail again to the east. After drifting many days, they came to a larger island, and after many more days to an even larger island. They hoped that this would be the fourth world that Sótuknang had made for them, but Spider Woman assured them that they still had a long and hard journey ahead. They walked across this island and built rafts on the far side, and set sail to the east again.
They came to a fourth and still larger island, but again they had to cross it on foot and then build more rafts to continue east. From this island, Spider Woman sent them on alone, and after many days they encountered a vast land. Its shores were so high that they could not find a place to land, and only by opening the doors in their heads did they know where to go to land.
When they finally got ashore, Sotuknang was there waiting for them. As they watched to the west, he made the islands that they had used like stepping stones disappear into the sea. He welcomed them to the fourth world, but he warned them that it was not as beautiful as the previous ones, and that life here would be harder, with heat and cold, and tall mountains and deep valleys. He sent them on their way to migrate across the wild new land in search of the homes for their respective clans.
The clans were to migrate across the land to learn its ways, although some grew weak and stopped in the warm climates or rich lands along the way. The Hopi trekked and far and wide, and went through the cold and icy country to the north before finally settling in the arid lands between the Colorado River and Rio Grande River. They chose that place so that the hardship of their life would always remind them of their dependence on, and link to, their Creator.
The world at first was endless space in which existed only the Creator, Taiowa. This world had no time, no shape, and no life, except in the mind of the Creator. Eventually the infinite creator created the finite in Sotuknang, whom he called his nephew and whom he created as his agent to establish nine universes. Sotuknang gathered together matter from the endless space to make the nine solid worlds. Then the Creator instructed him to gather together the waters from the endless space and place them on these worlds to make land and sea. When Sotuknang had done that, the Creator instructed him to gather together air to make winds and breezes on these worlds.
The fourth act of creation with which the Creator charged Sotuknang was the creation of life. Sotuknang went to the world that was to first host life and there he created Spider Woman, and he gave her the power to create life. First Spider Woman took some earth and mixed it with saliva to make two beings. Over them she sang the Creation Song, and they came to life. She instructed one of them, Poqanghoya, to go across the earth and solidify it. She instructed the other, Palongawhoya, to send out sound to resonate through the earth, so that the earth vibrated with the energy of the Creator. Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya were dispatched to the poles of the earth to keep it rotating.
Then Spider Woman made all the plants, the flowers, the bushes, and the trees. Likewise she made the birds and animals, again using earth and singing the Creation Song. When all this was done, she made human beings, using yellow, red, white, and black earth mixed with her saliva. Singing the Creation Song, she made four men, and then in her own form she made four women. At first they had a soft spot in their foreheads, and although it solidified, it left a space through which they could hear the voice of Sotuknang and their Creator. Because these people could not speak, Spider Woman called on Sotuknang, who gave them four languages. His only instructions were for them to respect their Creator and to live in harmony with him.
These people spread across the earth and multiplied. Despite their four languages, in those days they could understand each others thoughts anyway, and for many years they and the animals lived together as one. Eventually, however, they began to divide, both the people from the animals and the people from each other, as they focused on their differences rather than their similarities. As division and suspicion became more widespread, only a few people from each of the four groups still remembered their Creator. Sotuknang appeared before these few and told them that he and the Creator would have to destroy this world, and that these few who remembered the Creator must travel across the land, following a cloud and a star, to find refuge.
These people began their treks from the places where they lived, and when they finally converged Sotuknang appeared again. He opened a huge ant mound and told these people to go down in it to live with the ants while he destroyed the world with fire, and he told them to learn from the ants while they were there. The people went down and lived with the ants, who had storerooms of food that they had gathered in the summer, as well as chambers in which the people could live. This went on for quite a while, because after Sotuknang cleansed the world with fire it took a long time for the world to cool off. As the ants food ran low, the people refused the food, but the ants kept feeding them and only tightened their own belts, which is why ants have such tiny waists today.
Finally Sotuknang was done making the second world, which was not quite as beautiful as the first. Again he admonished the people to remember their Creator as they and the ants that had hosted them spread across the earth. The people multiplied rapidly and soon covered the entire earth. They did not live with the animals, however, because the animals in this second world were wild and unfriendly. Instead the people lived in villages and built roads between these, so that trade sprang up. They stored goods and traded those for goods from elsewhere, and soon they were trading for things they did not need.
As their desire to have more and more grew, they began to forget their Creator, and soon wars over resources and trade were breaking out between villages. Finally Sotuknang appeared before the few people who still remembered the Creator, and again he sent them to live with the ants while he destroyed this corrupt world. This time he ordered Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya to abandon their posts at the poles, and soon the world spun out of control and rolled over. Mountains slid and fell, and lakes and rivers splashed across the land as the earth tumbled, and finally the earth froze over into nothing but ice.
This went on for years, and again the people lived with the ants. Finally Sotuknang sent Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya back to the poles to resume the normal rotation of the earth, and soon the ice melted and life returned. Sotuknang called the people up from their refuge, and he introduced them to the third world that he had made. Again he admonished the people to remember their Creator as they spread across the land. As they did so, they multiplied quickly, even more quickly than before, and soon they were living in large cities and developing into separate nations.
With so many people and so many nations, soon there was war, and some of the nations made huge shields on which they could fly, and from these flying shields they attacked other cities. When Sotuknang saw all this war and destruction, he resolved to destroy this world quickly before it corrupted the few people who still remembered the Creator. He called on Spider Woman to gather those few and, along the shore, she placed each person with a little food in the hollow stem of a reed. When she had done this, Sotuknang let loose a flood that destroyed the warring cities and the world on which they lived.
Once the rocking of the waves ceased, Spider Woman unsealed the reeds so the people could see. They floated on the water for many days, looking for land, until finally they drifted to an island. On the island they built little reed boats and set sail again to the east. After drifting many days, they came to a larger island, and after many more days to an even larger island. They hoped that this would be the fourth world that Sótuknang had made for them, but Spider Woman assured them that they still had a long and hard journey ahead. They walked across this island and built rafts on the far side, and set sail to the east again.
They came to a fourth and still larger island, but again they had to cross it on foot and then build more rafts to continue east. From this island, Spider Woman sent them on alone, and after many days they encountered a vast land. Its shores were so high that they could not find a place to land, and only by opening the doors in their heads did they know where to go to land.
When they finally got ashore, Sotuknang was there waiting for them. As they watched to the west, he made the islands that they had used like stepping stones disappear into the sea. He welcomed them to the fourth world, but he warned them that it was not as beautiful as the previous ones, and that life here would be harder, with heat and cold, and tall mountains and deep valleys. He sent them on their way to migrate across the wild new land in search of the homes for their respective clans.
The clans were to migrate across the land to learn its ways, although some grew weak and stopped in the warm climates or rich lands along the way. The Hopi trekked and far and wide, and went through the cold and icy country to the north before finally settling in the arid lands between the Colorado River and Rio Grande River. They chose that place so that the hardship of their life would always remind them of their dependence on, and link to, their Creator.
Voltaire2
(14,724 posts)The god of dirt
came up to me many times and said
so many wise and delectable things; I lay
on the grass listening
to his dog voice,
crow voice,
frog voice.
now, he said
and now,
and never once mentioned forever.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Who made Spirometra erinaceieuropae? Who made the polio virus?
These are valid questions too - especially if you're going to admire the beautiful things and attribute them to an entity. Why does the entity get credit for the nice things, but no blame for the bad things?
Atheists are often attacked as being mean or arrogant or rude for asking these questions, but why? Why can't we ask these questions? If you are free to proselytize about your god by promoting the good things, why can't we ask about the bad?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Something, something
FREE WILL
Something, something
Nyah nyah boo boo
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)They imagine the Creator to be all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good, so they must explain away evil. But in other traditions, the gods are limited, neutral, or cruel. There is no problem of evil then. The gods could not prevent evil or did not care to, deal with it, be good to one another, end of story.
You can write poem about Naegleria fowleri if it floats your boat, but it doesn't sound very poetic so far.
Camus did write a profound story about bubonic plague which I enjoyed very much.
Or you can just run with the poem. The poem reminded me of a grasshopper I watched eating a plant when I was a kid, it was just fascinating then. I was surprised it could eat a whole plant. Now I feel sorry for the plant. Should I have saved the plant? Then what about the grasshopper?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The universe by all accounts is a violent place that doesn't give a crap about anyone or anything, other than the conservation of energy/matter and the overall increase of entropy.
If the argument is that this is the best possible universe, that's a pretty terrible argument.
But back to my point, by merely asking these questions we're raining on the parade. We're the bad guys.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)What do it have to do with the poem or the poet?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. I'm the bad guy for asking questions.
This was posted in the Religion group. I'm allowed to comment about the religious aspects, aren't I? Without being judged like you are doing?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And when questioned as to motive, you respond in the so very familiar way.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Sorry that bothers you so much that you need to insult me.
You keep being the kind of Christian you are, g.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304549
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)It's spiritual without being theological. So your question seemed to challenge the spirit of the poem. Which I see now is what you wanted to do. I wanted you to roll with the poem but I'll try to roll with you instead.
From a poetic perspective, God is often represented as all-good. But not always. Blake wrote Tyger Tyger and wondered how God could make both tigers and lambs. So he asks the same question you did. But no answers there either.
Western theologians try to answer the question of evil in the world. Their answers are worthless. It's because they wish to preserve the idea of God as all-good. I am not sure when an all-good God came about. Some say it came from Zoroastrianism, probably during the Babylonian exile.
The ancient Israelites don't seem to have had that view. As many have noticed, the stories mostly show a nasty God, demanding, quick to anger and randomly choosing favorites. Drop the idea of a good God and the stories make much more sense. It's a cruel God for a cruel world. Theologians twist themselves in knots to avoid this obvious conclusion.
Poets these days are more honest than theologians. This poem does not claim God is all good. It doesn't even say there is a God. It just asks the question. There is death, but no heaven awaits. It's just about living this life. Which, IMHO, makes it spiritual.
I don't think you are wrong for asking the hard questions. But people don't like those questions because they need to think God is good. 2500 years of conditioning has caught them in an illusion they don't want dispelled.
Illusions are enjoyable. For a moment this winter I was reminded of summer and grasshoppers and the wonder of it all. You broke the spell. Which is fine because we can't live in illusions, we can only visit. But picture those poor religionists, trapped in a 2500 year-old illusion, desperately trying to stay. Of course they are unresponsive and angry when you try to rouse them.
As I said, poets are more honest than theologians. They make you imagine, they ask questions, but don't pretend to have all the answers. There is a real spirituality in poetry that's not about pretending that life is something other than it is.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Many theists accept that the Creator values free will. And that free will must include the ability to make bad choices or it is only the illusion of free will.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)If there is an all-good God to go towards, there must also be an Evil to avoid. Then you "choose," between the two. The world becomes reduced to a series of binary choices. So you don't see the world for the kalidescope it really is. And you don't see yourself for who you really are, lest you see the Evil and choose it.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's why the lame-ass "free will defense" falls flat. There are many unnecessary hardships and atrocities in the world - not connected to our exercise of "free will" at all. Your weak theology has no way to explain them.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I'm talking about the theological commentary.
But again being told I need to shut up and not ask these questions is insulting.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)We do.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)So you've got that going for you.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Poetry and prayer are so similar in many ways.
And this:"When it's over, I want to say all my life/ I was a bride married to amazement."
is beautiful.
Thank you. We should all be brides to amazement.
NeoGreen
(4,033 posts)Who made the one, who made the one who made the universe that made the world?
ad nauseam ...