Religion
Related: About this forumHistorical proof of what has transpired in atheistic regime
"Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (19221991), there were periods where Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on State interests.[1] Soviet Marxist-Leninism policy consistently advocated the control, suppression, and ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, and actively encouraged atheism in the Soviet Union.[2] However, most religions were never officially outlawed.[1]
The state advocated the destruction of religion, and it officially pronounced religious beliefs to be superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] mosques and Buddhist temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[8][9]"
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
Did you read the last line? :The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million." The Holocaust was an abomination and horrible but just compare the number of these victims to those.
Notice the language too; "superstitious and backward". Sound familiar?
I'd bet the number of victims would be even higher when considering Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot and others.
I'm not saying Christianity or religion is perfect but neither is atheism.
ExciteBike66
(2,640 posts)Guil, is that you?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Funny how removing the theism, by force if necessary, reveals the same tendencies.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)As if any of it gets any better that the godless red scare claptrap from the 50s.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Those who want to claim atheism is no different than any religion conveniently ignore only one of those constitutes a belief system. Nobody does anything on behalf of atheism.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)..."EVERYBODY DOES IT"
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"No u"
Glorfindel
(9,925 posts)Yo know yo're on shaky ground when yo go-to argument is...
..."EVERYBODY DOES IT"
Sounds like a cross between Li'l Abner and Snuffy Smith!
msongs
(70,183 posts)3Hotdogs
(13,414 posts)zipplewrath
(16,692 posts)The vast majority of violent conflict that is justified over religious belief is typically actually about power and control, not faith. Religion becomes a convenient definition for tribalism. It can be used as evidence of conformity or obedience. And this can be true whether it is violence BY people identifying by a particular faith, or against the same. Dictatorial societies tend to not like religion, or some religions, because it represents an authority they don't control. In other cases, they can leverage a particular religion that gives them authority, and abuse others that don't.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)It was suppression of what they saw as rivals.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Ouch, that's an inconvenient fact for your narrative.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And the Soviets also closed churches, and religious institutions, and killed priests.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Which proves this wasn't about atheism, despite your desperation to make it that way.
Go ahead, try flinging "whataboutism" again. It's cute and funny to see you squirm.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And they did not explicitly claim to be motivated by atheism, but the 12-20 million dead were just as dead.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Please proceed.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)In my response, which included:
And they did not explicitly claim to be motivated by atheism
Please explain how me saying that they did not make that claim magically becomes a claim by me that they were motivated by atheism.
This should be interesting to read.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)What were they motivated by then, gil? Do tell. Go ahead and state for the record what you think they were motivated by.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And the record refutes your claim.
You can either
A) retract your claim, or,
B) continue with your claim.
I do not care either way.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Prove me wrong. Tell me what you do think motivated them.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Try again. Or not.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)If you just state what you think their motivation was.
If you refuse, then my claim remains intact.
Ball's in your court. I bet I know what you'll do though.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And they did not explicitly claim to be motivated by atheism, but the 12-20 million dead were just as dead.
I cannot say what motivated them, or in the case of multiple factors, which predominated. But, as I said, and as the original poster said, it is the behavior that we are speaking about, and how that behavior is found among theists and non-theists.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)This is 100% bullshit. You JUMP at the chance to post your "good news" stories where you claim people doing the right thing are motivated by religion, but you cannot logically say that either. Your deceit and double standards are glaring, and that's why no one takes you seriously.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)you are correct that no actual dialogue is possible. And again, you equate a tiny group with "no one". Interesting logic on display.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Keep denying - everyone knows the truth.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Everyone means literally every one. If you had written "everyone in the small group of atheists who post in this group", I would still disagree.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You have no idea what the numbers are, but it's important to your ego to make sure to try and dismiss them, I guess.
Here's the thing, I don't generally see anyone else sticking up for you on these threads. Yes, I know you've claimed to have a large invisible fan club who never comments or recs anything but sends you countless private messages of support. There is no evidence of that at all, however. But there's considerable evidence of multiple people taking you to task for your constant hypocritical behavior.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And, speaking hypothetically, if people feel that this group is hostile to theists, do you think that might inhibit them from posting here?
My feeling is that you see what supports your own narrative.
And the same tactics are evident here as well:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=307601
trotsky
(49,533 posts)one of your favorite tactics. So thanks for illustrating my point.
I'm not interested in exploring why you have a compulsive need to label your critics as a "small group." That's your problem to deal with.
The only thing that IS interesting is that your public fan club appears to be a LOT smaller than this "small group" of detractors.
And that is QUITE interesting.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And when messaging personally, you reveal far more.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)My links to your posts reveal LOTS of truth. And I understand you hate that.
I also understand that when you've got nothing else, you fall back on vague threats. So Christian of you.
I've told you in PMs that I despise you. I've made no bones about that, because I truly do. You make this place suck. That's just a fact. I've documented dozens, maybe hundreds of times by now, how you do that. So have multiple other people. But you keep carrying on, keep abusing others, keep insulting them, keep judging them, keep smearing them, keep pretending that you are perfect and good and that you are FORCED to do this because you have judged your detractors to be deserving of this treatment because of your perfect sense of justice.
You do you, gil. Keep on being an example of the behavior you want to see - and I'll keep documenting your hypocrisy.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Dozens, hundreds?
Why not claim millions?
As to threats, what threat did you read in my response? I have previously told you that the content your personal messages will always remain private. If you wish to print them in a post, you may do so but I understood that you intended them to be private.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why you are so obsessed with bringing them up when you lose a discussion, I don't know.
I can only read into it that you are trying to threaten me by making vague references to whatever I have told you. And I've made clear, what I have told you is that I despise you and the corrosive effect you have on this group, all in the cause of your quest to visit vengeance upon the non-believers who drove away your bigoted and assholish friends (who actually got themselves banned with their behavior).
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Marvelous command of the language.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I feel it's quite accurate. You clearly view yourself as a holy crusader against the rude infidels.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Very colorful.
Perhaps a line about the Lord visiting vengeance upon the infidels?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And your behavior.
Let me know when you think I've been punished enough for my sins.
Or is eternal punishment what you're salivating for?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Perhaps a comic book is called for.
I eagerly await the first issue.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Then you can dispense the ultimate justice on me in person, and you'll finally be happy.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But I do not feel you are guilty of anything other than venting in a relatively safe space.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why do you blast them as being in a "choir"? Why do you dehumanize them and de-legitimize their opinions by saying they are mindlessly following a fictional "11th commandment"?
If you have a beef with me pointing out that a person is themselves being condescending when they call someone else condescending, why take it out on multiple people?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304761
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303770
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300714
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300690
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=297276
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=296123
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295874
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295838
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294809
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294479
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292745
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=291622
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=289821
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=288084
I can post more if needed. Your behavior is consistently judgmental and hypocritical. It is on display for EVERYONE to see.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)If I wanted to use atheism as a motivation for anything other than ignoring a belief system how would I do that exactly?
Lets say I wanted to blow up a bus or assasinate a doctor, where could I find validation and absolution in atheism?
My god says you wont answer this question and I have the utmost faith it will never happen.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Read my reply to t here.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Kinda makes one wonder why you keep mentioning it.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And determining what motivates any particular person is difficult at best.
What motivated Stalin to massacre millions of Russians? Power might have been his goal, but how do we determine what were the deciding factors that motivated him?
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Meanwhile you want to suggest what his motivation was, but when asked how such a thing is possible your answer is you dont know.
Still your answer does provide other information about your own motivation. Funny how that works.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Funny how that works.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Others might disagree.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Good job of talking in circles while never managing to say anything you couldnt manage to support to begin with.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And he did actually force the collectivization of Russia, I think it's fair to surmise that he was motivated by the Communist theory that collectivization is good.
Just like people who say that forced conversions are good are probably motivated by the belief that forced conversions are good when they force people to convert.
When people say what their motivations are and then proceed to act in accordance with their stated motivations, do you really think it's that difficult to figure out what their motivations are?
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)You do get that your obvious appeal to emotion works both ways, yes?
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)Is that how it works? The Soviet Union was not a good thing. Suppression of people over religion isn't a good thing. People do all sorts of bad things to each other, and no group is immune to doing those things.
Some estimates have over 500 million indigenous people being exterminated by various groups who took over their lands. It happened in the Americas and it happened in Africa. In almost every case, it was Europeans doing, with the blessing of the Church.
I don't sweep the Soviet Union under the rug. I also don't sweep global genocide under that same rug.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Noted.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)Do you never get tired of pointing three fingers at yourself?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)As to "pointing 4 fingers", I only have 5, and when pointing, the thumb and first point forward. That leaves, if my math is adequate, 3 fingers.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Seems like he thinks it's fair game for others.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)a funny one two weeks ago or something.
We're all out to get him, see. I mean, of course, if we're not all the same person posting simultaneously on multiple devices.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Are you?
If so, why?
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)That's why the is there.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's amazing.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)the "choir" or your fictional "11th commandment" or any of the other smears you use here. You've been told numerous times by multiple individuals to stop doing that, but you keep on going with the references. Why? Why are you like this? Why do you promote hatred and discord?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304549
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And your own actual posting history here shows the unintentional irony of your accusations.
And in addition, you are now linking to your own previous unsupported accusations as being "proof" of this current unsupported accusation.
A veritable tower of straw.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You can't help yourself.
I invite anyone interested to compare our posting histories.
The people I've dissed are all gone - banished from DU for homophobia, or terrible behavior.
You keep attacking current DUers, judging everyone.
Keep being the best example of a Christian you can, guillaumeb. You definitely show what hatred, anger, and judgmentalism come from the religion.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)As to showing inner motivation, have you ever read about projection?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You certainly know what that's all about.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=307884
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I've given them plenty of links to decide for themselves who they think is projecting.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=306126
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304761
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303770
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300714
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300690
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=297276
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=296123
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295874
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295838
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294809
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294479
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292745
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=291622
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=289821
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=288084
If and when you decide to stop with the smears, the group attacks, the hypocrisy, and insults, you might just find this place becomes a lot more pleasant.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Understood.
This Group is very hospitable, as long as the poster is attacking religion.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Irony truly is dead, when YOU of all people post that sentence.
Maybe if you were honest and forthright in answering questions people ask of you, you'd get the answers you scream for.
Be the change you want to see, gil.
Or keep judging and dispensing eye-for-an-eye justice, but don't be surprised when no one does what you demand.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)It summarizes the Group perfectly.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why don't you show with your behavior what you WANT to see?
Why don't you break the cycle?
Everyone I've been a bastard to is gone. Banned for bigotry or general assholishness. You are still judging me based on how I treated those banned former DUers.
Try turning another page. Act differently than them. Stop using group smears like the "choir" meme and your fictional "11th commandment."
I and many others have asked you to do this. But you continue to hate and attack.
Why?
When do you think you will have punished others enough?
Never?
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Which of my posts in that thread do you think justify your use of "choir" as a smear against the people in this group who disagree with your statements?
Let's be clear, when you use "choir" you clearly intend it to mean that your detractors are a group being directed by another, and are ordered or otherwise directed into agreeing with each other.
Explain why your insult is a proper response. Identify which of my posts are equally insulting and dehumanizing.
Please proceed.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Interesting claim.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Understood.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304761
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303770
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300714
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300690
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=297276
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=296123
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295874
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295838
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294809
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294479
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292745
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=291622
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=289821
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=288084
That's just the first few search results, gil. Anyone star member can search for "choir" or "11th" or "harmony" in your posts and see all the evidence they need to confirm that my statements are correct. You insult and attack and dehumanize and do so all in the belief that you are a good Christian, and that your opponents deserve this treatment because you have judged them to. Attacking, judging, dispensing "eye for an eye" justice.
That's what you do.
That's what being a Christian means to you.
Keep it up. Please. No wonder no one takes you seriously.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)OK.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)But you knew that.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)MineralMan
(147,606 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)MineralMan
(147,606 posts)"Son, learn to laugh at yourself easily. If you dont, others will do it for you."
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Have a good night.
Mariana
(15,131 posts)"I'm not saying Christianity or religion is perfect but neither is atheism." <-- Whataboutism.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)NeoGreen
(4,033 posts)
The Atheist Atrocities Fallacy Hitler, Stalin & Pol Pot
In Memory of Christopher Hitchens
Religious apologists, particularly those of the Christian variety, are big fans of what I have dubbed, the atheist atrocities fallacy. Christians commonly employ this fallacy to shield their egos from the harsh reality of the brutality of their own religion, by utilizing a most absurd form of the tu quoque (you too) fallacy, mingled with numerous other logical fallacies and historical inaccuracies. Despite the fact that the atheist atrocities fallacy has already been thoroughly exposed by Hitchens and other great thinkers, it continues to circulate amongst the desperate believers of a religion in its death throes. Should an atheist present a believer with the crimes committed by the Holy See of the Inquisition(s), the Crusaders and other faith-wielding misanthropes, they will often hear the reply; Well, what about Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler? They were atheists, and they killed millions!
Yawn...
Been there, read that...
Worth repeating...
a most absurd form of the tu quoque (you too) fallacy, mingled with numerous other logical fallacies and historical inaccuracies.
For my part, I have found it helps to study more than one book.
Mariana
(15,131 posts)So were almost all of the Nazis who carried out his orders.
...they weren't referencing Thor or Allah when they wore/displayed Gott Mit Uns...
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/25points.asp
NeoGreen
(4,033 posts)...many (not all) of my posts are not only intended for the benefit of the post-author I am directly responding to, but often to a more general and wider audience.
Post #27 was just such a post.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)But it's been my experience that they will try to weasel out of Hitler if you give them any wiggle room at all.
NeoGreen
(4,033 posts)...overnight.
Every little bit helps.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)NeoGreen
(4,033 posts)...take us all back to the 1st century.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)The belief system was replaced with other philosophies, and the deity was replaced by a cult of personality, neither of which had anything to do with atheism.
Duppers
(28,246 posts)And a ❤
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But since it has absolutely nothing to say about how to behave, you can't exactly lay this crime at its feet, either.
Now if atheism had a holy book that all atheists claimed to follow, and there were verses in it that called for the extermination of believers and religion, you MIGHT have an apt comparison here.
But you don't. Thoughts and prayers, buddy.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)My religion teaches...
The good book says...
Said no atheist ever.
MineralMan
(147,606 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Great. Another one.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(10,029 posts)Personally, I find it annoying that I have to be defined by the fact that I don't believe some unscientific woo just because a lot of other people do. I wish not to be called anything at all in relation to god or no god.
happybird
(5,126 posts)Voltaire2
(14,724 posts)There is no other contingency or entailment than "believes in zero gods".
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)Every bit as much a motivating factor as his lack of religion.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)Religious persecution by the state is a political policy of many totalitarian regimes. It is not, as you try to assert, an example of some sort of state sponsored anti-theocracy that can be smugly labeled as atheism and pigionedholed as scary bad.
muriel_volestrangler
(102,502 posts)If we look at the total death toll in the gulags, ignoring whether the victims were Christian or not, let alone whether they were imprisoned because they were Christian, we find:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Death_toll
So 12-20 million appears to be a Cold War claim of the total dead, regardless of why the state persecuted them. The problem may be the "has been estimated" - yes, someone estimated that, but who, when, and with what evidence?
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)Honestly, considering how free the Soviets were with data at the time, he was all but pulling the numbers out of his ass, but it's within the realm of possibility. I think Snyder and really all the more recent authors do a better job coming up with data to support an accurate (and lower) number, but that's only reasonable considering they had access to archival sources Conquest wasn't going to get in the middle of the Cold War. And personally I have no problem including Ukrainian cannibalism on Stalin's balance sheet.
Unsurprisingly, Conquest is something of a right-wing darling for having produced the highest estimates. Of course, they think he was far too low: http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/
demigoddess
(6,675 posts)the commies came along.
Freedom of religion would work if all religions decided to keep themselves to themselves. Atheism and Theism should just keep out of people's business. I have gone to enough churches to know.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)To thousands of years of religious oppression, murders, of dissidents, "heretics."
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Most European countries were not, at the time, secular. Religion and state were seen by the Marxists as inseperable. Revolution against one necessarily entailed revolution against the other. Anyone trying to construe this as inspired by some deep commitment to atheism as a philosophical position is either hopelessly confused or fucking lying.
JPK
(684 posts)Atheism was not the thing that sent people to the Gulags, it was the authoritarian government that did it. It had nothing to do with a belief system. It was a political crack down. Fundamentalist Christians are trying to do the same thing today in our country but in reverse. They want to destroy Atheism because it is a threat to their wealth and political control over others.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)The article doesn't say 12-20M KILLED, it says 'victims'.
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] mosques and Buddhist temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers."
Ergo, ALL the people who fall under all these categories, all those who lost their church/synagogue they attended, everyone harrassed/ridiculed/incarcerated, etc ...
ARE VICTIMS.
Doesn't mean THEY DIED.
RoBear
(1,188 posts)One place where this is set down well is William Manchester's book A World Lit Only by Fire.
The same book has a very good section revealing the treatment of "Christians" by "Christians" during the reformation.
Time for a little homework???