Muslim Influence is Declining in Turkey

[trotsky]

https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/muslim-influence-declining-turkey

The results of a survey released by Konda research have made it clear Turkey is going towards a more secular future. This is surprising as the present government pursues political Islam. The poll has compared views touching on multiple lifestyle aspects among present-day Turks with those polled in 2008. About 55 percent described themselves as pious in the earlier survey. In contrast, only 51 percent responded the same in 2018. The same decade witnessed the rise in the number of individuals “without belief” or atheists from two percent to five percent. The findings by Konda suggests that a rising number of Turks, although religious and conservative, feel much less restricted by Islamic rules. They are also more aware when it comes to the rights of women. They are also much more tolerant of multiple religious viewpoints.

A significant drop has been found in the number of respondents identifying themselves as “religious conservative.” It slid down to 25 percent from the previous 32 percent. The number of Turks who claim to fast during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, have suffered a sharp decline from 77 percent to 65 percent. The winds of liberal thought are blowing through other aspects of life as well. As per the poll, the number of respondents holding the view that a woman and man must do a religious marriage for cohabitation have dropped by five percentage points to settle at 74 percent finally.

The results of the Konda poll have surprised a number of lay observers. The secular tinted findings are in direct contrast with the phenomena of a majority of voters re-electing politicians who regularly inject devout Muslim beliefs to government policies. Analysts, however, are not surprised. The President Recep Tayyip Erdogan-led Justice and Development Party began their rule from Ankara with a string economic focus, which drew a majority of the votes from the Turkish population. The administration, however, pushed an agenda of soft Islamisation over a period of time. The stress towards political Islam has become more strident in recent times.

...The attempts of the Erdogan regime in Turkey to promote religiosity has not resulted in any effective result. According to Murat Somer of Koc University in Istanbul, the efforts to push in religiosity has minimal effect on the Turkish populace. Many have noticed that although public religious acts have been steady, private acts have fallen, signifying religious shallowness.

[comradebillyboy]

1. I love Turkey, where you can see topless Europeans and

tourists from the Gulf states in their burkinis all on the same beach.

[Major Nikon]

2. It doesn't take all that many fundamentalists to inject fundamentalism into public policy

Considering a population with only 15% of fundamentalists, that's 15% of the population you can rely on for unwavering support if you throw red meat to them on a consistent basis. In a population that's already divided more or less evenly on ideology, that reliable 15% will decide many elections.

[trotsky]

3. Thanks to the support and cover they get from the religious moderates...

who insist that we all need to respect faith and not criticize religious ideas.

[Major Nikon]

4. That and not enough others calling bullshit

But yes, it stems from the deeply flawed idea that religion is beyond criticism, yet gets to freely promote itself. That's how privilege works.

[MineralMan]

5. And yet, look what the Christian Right has been able to do here,

with only about 30-35% of the population. I give you Donald Trump as an example.

The problem is the fanatical nature of "true believers." They will do anything to get what they want. Turkey has struggled with this for many decades. Ultra religious Muslims exert enormous pressure on government, much like our fundamentalist Christians do here.

[guillaumeb]

6. Good to see that theists are becomg more tolerant.

Excellent news, as referenced here:

The findings by Konda suggests that a rising number of Turks, although religious and conservative, feel much less restricted by Islamic rules. They are also more aware when it comes to the rights of women. They are also much more tolerant of multiple religious viewpoints.

[trotsky]

7. Increased secularism will have that effect. n/t

[guillaumeb]

9. Except in China.

An actual case study, so to speak, of a very secular society.

But again, as your own article points out, it is good that theists are becoming more tolerant.

[trotsky]

10. #Whataboutism

This thread is about Turkey, Islam, and secularism.

But religious people in China ARE more tolerant than theists in, say, Saudi Arabia.

[guillaumeb]

11. Stay on topic?

Green New Deal.

[trotsky]

12. Judging and dispensing eye-for-an-eye justice.

Keep being you, g.

[guillaumeb]

13. I did not force you to post there.

You freely decided to post there. And off topic as well.

[trotsky]

23. So it's OK what I posted, then?

Make up your mind, gil. Are you going to judge me and dispense retributive justice or not?

Matthew 5:38-40. Are you a Christian or not?

[Voltaire2]

14. Actually in Turkey theists have become less tolerant.

[guillaumeb]

15. Clearly that is exactly what you read.

What I read, by contrast, and from the original excerpt, was this:

The results of a survey released by Konda research have made it clear Turkey is going towards a more secular future. This is surprising as the present government pursues political Islam. The poll has compared views touching on multiple lifestyle aspects among present-day Turks with those polled in 2008. About 55 percent described themselves as pious in the earlier survey. In contrast, only 51 percent responded the same in 2018. The same decade witnessed the rise in the number of individuals “without belief” or atheists from two percent to five percent. The findings by Konda suggests that a rising number of Turks, although religious and conservative, feel much less restricted by Islamic rules. They are also more aware when it comes to the rights of women. They are also much more tolerant of multiple religious viewpoints.

A significant drop has been found in the number of respondents identifying themselves as “religious conservative.” It slid down to 25 percent from the previous 32 percent. The number of Turks who claim to fast during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, have suffered a sharp decline from 77 percent to 65 percent. The winds of liberal thought are blowing through other aspects of life as well. As per the poll, the number of respondents holding the view that a woman and man must do a religious marriage for cohabitation have dropped by five percentage points to settle at 74 percent finally.

So there is that.

[Voltaire2]

16. You do know that Edrogan is the head of

a theocratic political party AK Parti that has deliberately undone Turkish secular institutions and laws and now rules as essentially as a one party regime, right?

[guillaumeb]

18. And you do know that:

The findings by Konda suggests that a rising number of Turks, although religious and conservative, feel much less restricted by Islamic rules. They are also more aware when it comes to the rights of women. They are also much more tolerant of multiple religious viewpoints.

correct?

So your response, while correct, is not addressing the actual topic.

[Voltaire2]

20. Yes sure whatever.

Meanwhile the true believers, threatened by declining levels of belief, by the modernity of cosmopolitan Turkey, have reacted quite predictably with a theocratic counter revolution. So as your article notes, in its first paragraph, politically Turkey is moving strongly in the opposite direction. As in Iran, the theocrats can successfully exploit the tension between a secular cosmopolitan population and a deeply religious rural population to consolidate its control. In fact a similar dynamic is in play in our own country.

[guillaumeb]

22. Yes, the 2% decline.

And politically, the majority are Muslim.

And, your assertion is still contradicted by the actual article.

What does "belief perseverance" mean?

[Voltaire2]

26. So in summary the Turkish state is sliding

Into overt theocracy as its people become more secular.

[MineralMan]

27. Yes. That's what's happening.

Secular Turkey is on its way out. The religious have slowly, but steadily moved in to replace the political system with an Islamic one. When I was stationed there, Turkey was a secular nation, trying to maintain its separation from Islam. That worked for many years, but is rapidly failing now.

The population might be getting less religious, but the government is becoming more and more like an Islamic state.

It looks to me as though a secular government is a dying dream at this point for Turks. We should be paying attention, not because we care about Turkey. We don't. Because we need to prevent our own nation from being converted into a religious state. We're on that path right now, from what I can see.

More's the pity.

[guillaumeb]

29. We are addressing 2 issues.

I am addressing the fact that Turks, including theists, are becoming more tolerant.

And you are addressing the situation with Erdogan.

But the topic was how the Turks are becoming more tolerant. Even the Muslim Turks. So the title is, at best, speculation.

[Voltaire2]

33. You do not see any connection?

[MineralMan]

34. Apparently not.

Color me unsurprised...

[guillaumeb]

39. Color you decisively refuted by the article.

[MineralMan]

40. Not so.

While the Turkish people are becoming more secular, their government is becoming more stringently Islamic. It's a parallel to what has been happening here, too. Religion is not always a force for good.

And, with that, I bid farewell to this thread.

[guillaumeb]

38. Do you see Erdogan as the conservative pushback?

Pushing against what Attaturk started?

The survey clearly demonstrates that Turkish Muslims as a group are becoming more tolerant. Even among the more conservative factions.

[Voltaire2]

41. No it shows the number of conservative Muslims is lower.

[guillaumeb]

44. By a miniscule fraction.

And the survey clearly identifies even conservative Muslims as among those becoming more tolerant.

[Act_of_Reparation]

43. No poll can demonstrate that.

Polls only demonstrate what people think of themselves when asked.

[MineralMan]

17. Been to Turkey, have you?

Because I lived in Turkey for 15 months, 50 years ago, I have followed that country ever since. I suggest you go there and see it for youself. Stay long enough to make friends with some Turks. Learn the language well enough to have general conversations. Ask actual Turks what they think.

Don't just rely on what one person writes. That's my suggestion.

[guillaumeb]

19. Marvelous.

So your 50 year old experience, lasting 15 months, qualifies you to do what, exactly?


How many surveys have you conducted in Turkey in the last 50 years?

[trotsky]

24. Wow.

I just can't understand why no one wants to have a serious conversation with you.

[guillaumeb]

30. Unintended irony at its best. eom

[trotsky]

31. You awesome Christian, you.

I bet Jesus is so proud.

[Major Nikon]

35. ...metaphorically

[guillaumeb]

36. I strongly suspect that you meant this....

to be ironic.

But, considering your demonstrated literalist tendencies, perhaps not.

[trotsky]

42. No, really.

Don't you think Jesus is proud of you, too?

Matthew 5:38-40

[guillaumeb]

21. And, speaking of the firm doing the survey,

We conducted our first Lifestyles Survey in 2008 and our second in 2015, and repeated it in 2018. The survey was conducted in Turkey through face-to-face interviews with 5793 people in their households, in April, 2018. Our aim was to look more closely to everyday practices and values of the society, to understand how social layers with different lifestyles live and to cover the changed or unchanged trends in the society in the last 10 years.

This information can be found at the link at the bottom of the article. Perhaps you did not click on the link, or you might have read that they interviewed 5,793 people over a 10 year period.

So the article supports my observation that theists in Turkey are becoming more tolerant.

Perhaps you also conducted a similar survey while in the Armed Forces? If so, how much free time did you have?

So before responding, it might have been better if you had read the links at the bottom. Just my suggestion.

[MineralMan]

25. Free time while serving at that base in Turkey was easy to come by.

We worked rotating shifts, with three days on and one off, ending the cycle with four days off. During those four day breaks, I traveled over much of Turkey. We had the use of a pickup truck and camper if you had a military driver's licence, which I did. Typically, another person would travel with me who was on the same shift schedule.

In addition to that kind of travel, I also hiked to remote villages in Turkey, often spending my entire four-day breaks doing so. Why? Because life in those villages, which had no roads leading to them was like stepping back into ancient history. I found the experience very educational. I was always received very, very well in them, and was a subject of much curiosity and interest. A couple of villages became regular places to visit, and I carried in scarce supplies and even first aid and other medical items on my visits.

I had a fairly good basic conversational knowledge of Turkish and talked to many, many people there, from local residents of the city near the base to people in those remote villages and other places I visited.

Yes, that was 50 years ago, but I maintained my interest in Turkey ever since. I have acquaintances who are Turks and communicate with them on Facebook and other internet venues.

Do I do scientific surveys? No, I don't. I engage in conversations with people. You don't know me. You know almost nothing about me.

Again: Have you ever visited Turkey? Were you ever in the military?

[guillaumeb]

28. So your quarrel with the survey is based on nothing?

Except perhaps that the survey refutes what you wish to believe?

Understood.

Do you generally value limited anecdotal evidence over professional research?

As to your questions, they have no relevance to the topic. I am not disputing survey results based on 50 year old anecdotal expreiences.

[MineralMan]

32. And yours is based on a single article.

Your personal knowledge of Turkey appears to be nil. Bye, now.

[guillaumeb]

37. An article that contradicted your claim.

Interesting.

[Duppers]

8. Thank Gawd! 😉