Tax the churches

[dweller]

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[BlueBloodedAmerican]

1. YES

[FoxNewsSucks]

2. Should have been done a long time ago

[LakeArenal]

3. Yes. Vow of poverty assholes....

[wnylib]

15. AFAIK, only Catholic clergy take a vow of poverty.

[elias7]

5. If there is no separation, there can be no exemption. Simple.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

6. No representation without taxation!

[Skittles]

7. THANK YOU

it's about fucking time they were taxed

[Beachnutt]

8. And This

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=16908775
17. In addition can we please revoke the church exclusion to IRS financial reporting?
All other NPO's must report money-in, money-out on a yearly basis. It lets the public know that the organization is not being used for money laundering and that those running it are spending donated money for its stated purpose, typically with churches that would be charity work and to financially keep the church operating.

Only Churches are exempt, and for no reason. It makes them the perfect black box financial vehicle for moving money, laundering money and appropriating money.

[dweller]

9. +1k

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[wnylib]

17. Oh, absolutely. Who knows what shady money laundering

Last edited Mon Jul 11, 2022, 07:55 AM - Edit history (1)

goes on in those wily Amish communities? They even speak a foreign language among themselves. Their pacifism is no doubt a front for hiding arms in their hay lofts. And we should make those Amish farmers pay tax on their church buildings, too. Oh, they don't have any. They meet in each other's homes. Very sneaky of them, huh? So tax the houses and farm land, and make them pay income tax, too. Oh, they already do.

Then there are the homes for the aged, run by various politically subversive denominations like Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists. Surely their doctors and nurses at those homes should be made to pay taxes. Oh, wait. They already do. But we can at least charge taxes on the buildings and grounds. Look at how rich they get from people's social security benefits.

Don't forget the free immigration services that churches give to asylum seekers, like legal representation from pro bono immigration lawyers, and the wealth accumulated in donated second hand clothing that they give to immigrants from war torn countries. That must surely be worth something in taxes. Very sly, those immigration services. They use volunteers so they can keep the second hand wealth to themselves. And who needs immigrants, anyway? Tax those agencies out of existence.

Did you know that churches have what they call "mission funds"? A portion of the weekly collections goes into those funds and then the committee in charge of the fund writes a check to places that request help, like the city mission that houses homeless people, the local food bank, after school tutoring programs to underprivileged children for books and other materials. Those are CASH giveaways. Surely that cash can be taxed to serve a higher purpose than doling it out to people in need.

Oh, those wily church people. Hoarding second hand clothing wealth, giving aid to homeless people and asylum seekers, housing the aged and giving them medical care. Tsk, tsk.

[No Vested Interest]

19. Thank you, wnylib

[UniqueUserName]

20. Your post is something that my vainglorious sister would say

My sister told me that Americans donate more to charity than any other people.

And I pointed out to her that a society that needs charity is inherently broken. The Swedes don't donate to charity because they've built a social safety net into their system. The swedes don't need to donate to charity because their society cares about the people in it.

Christians want to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves how wonderful they are.

Do you want to discuss the mutable English language? Christian does not mean Christlike anymore or even follower of Christ. If enough people wrangle the term "Christian" to be nazi. It means Nazi.
The largest Protestant denomination in the United States is the Southern Baptist. The southern baptist broke away from the Baptist at large because they wanted to own slaves. The southern baptist still do not ordain women as pastors.

[wnylib]

21. The Swedish system is laudable.

Now look at the US. We can't even get Congress to agree on saving Social Security. If we had a reliable political system in the US for public social needs, then we might establish a system like Sweden's. But last I looked, we have political parties with extreme opposing views on social well being so that the viability of social programs depends on who is in political control. Already Republicans have blocked the child welfare credits that Biden started for low income families. So the reality is that we live in the US, not Sweden. You speak in theoretics. Meantime, the reality of social needs continues to exist in the US.

It is not a matter of Christians patting themselves on their backs for charity works. It is a matter of living up to what the religion teaches. Most people who criticize and condemn all churches haven't a clue to the extent of services that churches provide because 1) the churches are not bragging about all that they do, and 2) the critics have such contempt for religion that they don't bother to learn what actually goes on in many of the churches that are not part of right wing America.

Your Nazi claim reveals gross ignorance of what went on in Nazi Germany and what goes on in most Christian churches today. When the Nazi party infiltrated German churches to get their own leaders in control of church councils and hierarchy, the Nazis established the nationalist (Nazi) German Christian Church. This caused a split in the churches between those that went along with the Nazi propaganda and those who broke away to establish the "Confessing Church." The Confessing Church opposed Nazism and went underground to ordain their own ministers, teach against Nazi actions and ideas, and form rescue operations for people at risk of Nazi arrest for political views, religious views, Jewish roundups, etc. The two main branches of Christianity that were involved in that breakaway church were the Reformed Churches (Presbyterians and other Calvinists) and the German Evangelical Church (Lutherans). Evangelical in Germany did NOT mean what it does in American churches today. In Germany, it was a broad term for Protestants in general, as opposed to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

Some of those pastors spoke boldly from their pulpits in denouncing Nazism and were sent to concentration camps where they died. A few survived.

I am actively involved in 3 local churches, but am officially a member of just one of them. They have been preaching against the right wing propaganda of race replacement theory. Their members are involved in racial coalition groups and activities. They held Pride services conducted by members of the LGBTQ community and have members, ordained and lay persons, who are from those communities. They take these positions as a matter of faith, not politics, to include all people who want to be part of the church and on behalf of social justice.

But some people have had bad experiences with a church in childhood, so they dedicate their lives to condemning ALL churches based on their personal experience. Others are contemptuous of religion because they do not share the beliefs. They oppose religions that try to force their beliefs onto others, which I (and many other Christians) agree with them about. But then the religion critics become like the people they oppose when they try to impose their view of religion on everyone.

Religions are not and should not be isolated from criticism. But it is intellectually lazy, not to mention dishonest and ignorant, to use sweeping generalizations in claiming that ALL churches are the same in their operations and views about current issues.

[UniqueUserName]

23. Thank you for your considered response

I never claimed that all Christians were Nazis. I merely claimed that the English language is mutable.

If you for a moment think that "Conservative Christian" in political ads in South Alabama is anything but a dog whistle. I think you are mistaken. Why the distinction between "Conservative Christian" and "christian"?

I am arguing that the crazies have co-opted your terms. And they're very good at that. There are more Christians that fall outside of the Southern Baptist umbrella then that are in that umbrella. But if you don't diligently defend against them, "Christian" will mean nazi. It does in South Alabama. Probably not the country at Large.

We all must be diligent against having other people redefine words. My very lovable brother-in-law uses "woke" as a derogatory term. It is incumbent upon me to disabuse him of that. After all, what is the opposite of woke? Asleep? In tranced? Hypnotized?

I think it's incumbent upon all of us to be diligent. I am a secular humanist. However I do find God to be a useful concept in the same way that I find the square root of -1 to be useful.

No. I don't want to talk about higher math. It's been 30 years since I took calc 4. And anyone who would value intelligence above all other characteristics is not someone I would want to associate with.

[wnylib]

24. I have no control over people who usurp the name and terms of Christianity.

I cannot tape their mouths shut. I cannot tie their hands to prevent them from posting messages or putting stickers on their trucks and cars.

I can call them out for lies and distortions and I do. I can call out others who lump us all together and I do.

I, and the church members that I know, are no more responsible for RW extremism in the name of Christianity than mainstream Muslims are responsible for the acts of Jihadi terrorists.

I am who I am. I am not defined by RW extremists, seditionists, or terrorists who use religion to project their own hatred.

I have no problem about people having other religious beliefs or no religious beliefs. But I am tired of people who are as fanatical and dogmatic about their lack of belief as the fundies are about forcing their beliefs on others.

[UniqueUserName]

25. You are arguing with the wrong person.

I'm forcing my beliefs upon you?

Do you support the Supreme Court decision that the coach should have been able to co-opt his team into a prayer on the 50-yard line?

Frankly, you sound like someone who relishes in white privilege. Make no mistake, I am white. I am male. I am gay. If you can pass for straight, you can manipulate White privilege.

I am disconnecting from the internet for a couple of weeks. In no way do I recognize the superiority of your bruised ego.

You have no control over the people who usurp the title Christianity? But you choose to argue with someone who is a victim of christianity. That actually says a lot about you. I don't really think there's anything else to be said between us. Like I told you up above, I'm disconnecting for right now. The more you talk, the less I think about you.

[wnylib]

26. I am responding even though you

have tuned out because your comments deserve to be answered for anyone else reading this thread.

For the record, I am biracial, of both European-American and Native American descent. I am a straight female. My church has many LGBTQ members, including some who are ordained. The congregation is racially mixed. So your claim of my "superiority of a bruised (white) ego" is not quite on the mark.

Why would you ask me about the coach praying on the football field when, as I have clearly stated, his brand of RW Christianity has nothing to do with me? If you search me on DU, you will find my posts about him. Is it possible that you are nurturing a bruised ego because I do not fit into the corner that you expect me to?

It is terrible that religion harmed you - and many others - due to sexuality. Churches have also done terrible harm to POC and to women. Some still do. I do know that my church and the other 2 churches that I am involved with embrace and support LGBTQ members, but that has not been the case in the past. While these specific churches did not persecute LGBTQ people loudly and openly in media, they also were not accepting either. Their disapproval was more silent than open, but surely was felt just as badly.

Your anger is well justified, but you don't need me to tell you that. I cannot erase the pain you experienced nor do I think that you should or must like religion. I simply do not agree that all churches or all religions are evil. I used to think that once because of what many churches have done to women (I am a marriage abuse survivor), not to mention to Native people, especially to children. But I am able to recognize and accept the changes in some churches now. Not everyone can, and that is up to them.

[UniqueUserName]

27. OMFG!

This is my last response. Of course you get the last word.

I don't believe you. I think that you pass as white. I don't think that you stand up for the trodden down.

You aren't worth my time. My very dear friend was informed today that she was probably going blind. There is nothing that you can say that can fix that. There is nothing that you can say that make that right. I am going to be there for that person.

Do you understand that?
I don't want to engage you in this conversation. I find you tedious. I want to unplug from the internet. Can you not understand that? Are you going to make me fight with you?

[duckworth969]

10. Frank Zappa - The Church and Taxes

Can’t post YouTube link.

Title listed above, Footage World is the owner of the vid.

1’07” length

[Duppers]

16. Here ya go....YouTube...

[LoisB]

11. Absolutely!!!

[rubbersole]

12. Tax them as a 501cGrooming spa.

[SunSeeker]

13. Please post tweet link so we can retweet.

[dweller]

22. Sorry

It’s a jpeg I found on God’s FB page


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[bringthePaine]

14. by their "sacrificial" methodology, they should "offer up" their exemptions as proof of their faith🤨

[Initech]

18. Frank Zappa called it in 1988!

[Sky Jewels]

28. Tax the churches until ...

they're small enough to drown in a bathtub. (The Grover Norquist method.)

[MinisterPathos]

29. Could not agree more

Personal belief here, practice religion in the home as you see fit. God doesnt take attendance.

Oh Hi! New here! Such a nice place with like minded, common sensed folk.

[dweller]

30. Welcome

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