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milestogo

(17,885 posts)
Tue Nov 29, 2022, 11:11 AM Nov 2022

How fast is gravity, exactly?

Of all of the fundamental forces known to humanity, gravity is both the most familiar and the one that holds the Universe together, connecting distant galaxies in a vast and interconnected cosmic web. With that in mind, a fascinating question to ponder is whether gravity has a speed. It turns out that it does, and scientists have precisely measured it.

Let’s start with a thought experiment. Suppose at this very instant, somehow the Sun was made to disappear — not just go dark, but vanish entirely. We know that light travels at a fixed speed: 300,000 kilometers per second, or 186,000 miles per second. From the known distance between the Earth and the Sun (150 million kilometers, or 93 million miles), we can calculate how long it would take before we here on Earth would know the Sun had disappeared. It would take about eight minutes and 20 seconds before the noon sky would go dark. But what about gravity? If the sun disappeared, it would not only stop emitting light, but also stop exerting the gravity that holds the planets in orbit. When would we find out?

If gravity is infinitely fast, gravity would also disappear as soon as the Sun poofed into nonexistence. We’d still see the Sun for a little over eight minutes, but the Earth would already start wandering off, heading for interstellar space. On the other hand, if gravity traveled at the speed of light, our planet would continue to orbit the Sun as usual for eight minutes and 20 seconds, after which it would stop following its familiar path. Of course, if gravity traveled at some other speed, the interval between when beachgoing Sun worshipers noticed the Sun was gone and when astronomers observed that the Earth was going in the wrong direction would be different. So, what is the speed of gravity?

Different answers have been proposed throughout scientific history. Sir Isaac Newton, who invented the first sophisticated theory of gravity, believed the speed of gravity was infinite. He would have predicted that the Earth’s path through space would change before Earth-bound humans noticed that the Sun was gone.

On the other hand, Albert Einstein believed that gravity traveled at the speed of light. He would have predicted that humans would simultaneously notice the disappearance of the Sun and the change of Earth’s path through the cosmos. He built this assumption into his theory of general relativity, which is currently the best accepted theory of gravity, and it very precisely predicts the path of the planets around the Sun. His theory makes more accurate predictions than Newton’s. So, can we conclude that Einstein was right? No, we can’t. If we want to measure the speed of gravity, we need to think of a way to directly measure it. And, of course, since we can’t just “disappear” the Sun for a few moments to test Einstein’s idea, we need to find another way.

Read more: https://bigthink.com/hard-science/speed-of-gravity/

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packman

(16,296 posts)
1. Thanks for the thought article - Never gave gravity a thought
Tue Nov 29, 2022, 11:18 AM
Nov 2022

just figured it was a function of mass and was just - well, there. But associating it with light and speed - that is interesting




"Gravity and light travel at the same speed, determined by a precise measurement. It validates Einstein once again, and it hints at something profound about the nature of space. Scientists hope one day to fully understand why these two very different phenomena have identical speeds."

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
4. Something really trippy is that what we experience as gravity is actually a distortion of space/time
Tue Nov 29, 2022, 11:38 AM
Nov 2022

Yes it's 'caused' by mass existing within space, but ultimately the 'cause' of gravity (as we perceive it) is that this mass causes 'time' to run more slowly at, say, the surface of the earth than it does ... away from the earth.

Yes, the difference in the speed that time is running is unbelievably tiny in scope (a whole lotta zeros are involved), but ultimately, the reason that cup falls to the floor when you drop it ... is because time is running every-so-slightly faster at the level of your hand ... than it is at the level of your floor.

Time is not an absolute thing, you see. It is 'relative'.

Fun Fact

Igel

(36,118 posts)
9. the wag's formulation ...
Tue Dec 6, 2022, 10:32 PM
Dec 2022

Matter tells space how to curve, space tells matter how to move.

Of course, that last bit involves viewing one frame of reference from a different frame of reference.

Igel

(36,118 posts)
8. It's rather a big deal.
Tue Dec 6, 2022, 10:31 PM
Dec 2022

Think of it in other terms.

Minkowsky space is basically information space. You can't get information about things that are farther away than lightspeed would allow data transmission. Outside of that "light cone" it's all unknowable, not just unknown. This keeps getting proven right, and Minkowsky's word preceded and enabled Einstein's.

But if gravity moved faster than light-speed, then if the Sun vanished and we knew that gravity "failed" before the last of the Sun's light reached us, we'd know the Sun was gone before we could know the Sun was gone. All sorts of implications from what we know about Minkowsky space and general relativity fail and we're in duck soup.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
3. Cool stuff! And to answer the final question, we might never know why they're the same
Tue Nov 29, 2022, 11:27 AM
Nov 2022

Just as we may never know why the speed of light ... is the value that it is.

It could be that some things are so fundamental that the only answer possible to the question of 'why' is ... because that's what/how it is.

It's irreducible, IOW.

The 'why' is still an interesting question, though.

Warpy

(113,130 posts)
5. Gravity might be its own thing, independent of radiation
Tue Nov 29, 2022, 12:42 PM
Nov 2022

that produces visible and invisible light. For one thing, we know it's not so much a space-time continuum, it's a gravity-time continuum.

I weigh a few nanograms less here at 6000 feet than I did at sea level, for instance, and I'm aging slightly faster than I would have back there. Neither is perceptible on a human scale, but they are measurable. GPS only works because the even larger time differential is constantly being adjusted.

LIGO has detected gravity waves, but they don't seem to be simultaneous with observable phenomena. The waves might be either faster or slower than the speed of light, we just don't know as yet.

SCantiGOP

(14,250 posts)
7. We know that gravity exists by observation
Wed Nov 30, 2022, 02:45 PM
Nov 2022

but science still has a lot of trouble defining what it is and why it occurs. We simply accept it because it is always there.

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