5 atheist arguments you can stop using

[DetlefK]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-atheist-arguments-which-arent-helping-anyone/

The break-down:

5. Scientific proof means literally nothing to believers. Stop demanding that they prove what they believe. You sound to them like a cracy-person for NOT believing without proof.

4. Stop pointing out logical errors in their belief-system. Again, logic means nothing to them. If mathematics say one thing and religious claims say something else, the mathematics are wrong. Always.

3. Stop badmouthing a religion for the barbaric horror-porn in their holy text. Very, very few believers are fundamentalists and most believers have a unique belief, with the supposed "holy text" merely a loose inspiration. (The holy text will be ignored or defended on a case-by-case-basis.)

2. Religion has become ingrained into society, culture and politics. You cannot blame wars on religion without taking those other factors into account. For example: Nobody has ever declared a Holy War to invade a barren and worthless landscape where nobody wants to live in the first place.

1. Stop attacking the specific faith of a specific person. (see 3.) Atheism isn't about defeating believers. And it's a waste of time to try to destroy every single, unique religious belief that every single, unique person holds.





----------------------------

re 5: I suggest pointing out the merits of the scientific method and encouraging people to compare the scientific method and faith.

The scientific method came to be when mathematics was added to the experimental magic of the Renaissance. Magic in turn came to be, when the concept of laws of nature entered the religious mainstream. Evolutionairily speaking, science is a more complex, more sophisticated successor of religion. Science was specifically designed to deliver answers about nature that religion can't deliver.

Get people to use the scientific method and they will grow distant from religion all by themselves over time.



re 1: I once had developed a theological proof that disproved God. I posted it on a mathematical forum. And I got a shit-ton of criticism how my notation wasn't mathematical and how clumsy the structure of my proof was. No one pointed out logical errors though. What really struck me was the complaint that I only disproved one very specific kind of God. The commenter asked me to rather come up with a disproof of all the possible Gods anybody could think off.

The morals of the story: For every one God you disprove, two new Gods will be made up that specifically pass this proof.

[Warpy]

1. I disagree with you about #5. It only makes believers more defensive

and many of them, especially here on DU, are well acquainted with the scientific method and some use it in their daily work.

All I ever say is that I don't believe a word of it and that's not going to change. It's only with fellow atheists that I really let fly and show just how unsympathetic a view of religion I have.

[Curmudgeoness]

2. That is a smart way to deal with it.

As the OP shows, it is all a waste of time anyways. The only arguments I will get involved in are those that might affect me or anyone else who doesn't believe...like separation of church and state issues, or the "we are a Christian nation" bull.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. One of the biggest reasons I'm an Atheist? Because I don't listen to instructions.

I certainly am not interested in someone else's ideas on "how to be an Atheist". I'm not a soccer fan, I don't need a list of rules on how not to be a soccer fan.


You are correct in that Theological arguments are a waste of time, because they invariably end up operating on the "I'm rubber, you're glue" logic level.

[JoeyT]

4. Meh.

#5: It isn't about convincing the person you're arguing with. It's about swaying undecided people that may be listening. "Can you prove any of the supernatural things you're claiming exist?" being answered with "NO! YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE! STOP ASKING QUESTIONS!" over and over is one of the things that convinced me I wanted no part of religion.

#4 and #3 are going to be combined: I don't care what anyone's belief system is, or what barbarism or silliness it contains. BUT when they tell me I can't make out with another dude because their religion forbids it, you're goddamned right I'm going to point out all the silly stuff and ask them why they're not beating kids heads in with rocks. If you want your beliefs to not be questioned, stop making them into laws or demand other people follow them. You cannot have it both ways. Either it's a marvelous moral code we all have to follow, or it's totally a private belief that everyone should stop bothering you about. Religious people need to fucking pick one already.

#2: Wait, so 5, 4, and 3 are "Don't criticize religious people for what they believe." and now #2 is "Don't criticize religious people for what they DO in the name of their religion either." This whole list could've been shortened to "Don't criticize religious people at all, ever."

#1: This one is just silly. Almost no one actually does that, and when they do more often than not it's because a religious person is demanding their religion be catered to.

[cleanhippie]

20. Agreed about it not being about convincing the one you're arguing with.

Especially here on DU, it's about what others see when they read the exchange. When they post those convoluted theo-"logical" explanations, deflect, defend, or run away after dropping some turd like "I'll pray for you" , it's not that you've shown them something they didn't already know, you're showing other readers just what hypocrites, cowards, or shysters they really are. It would really be funny it it weren't so damn pathetic of them.

[Act_of_Reparation]

5. #2 and #3 make my head hurt.

No, not everyone is a "fundamentalist"... And fundamentalists aren't the only people to believe stupid, crazy, or regressive shit. So there's that.

And yes, religion is a facet of culture, but the influence isn't unidirectional. So let's stop pretending it is.

[uriel1972]

6. what a blithering load of excrement...

I read cracked, but, not surprisingly, I don't take it as the last word.

[Iggo]

7. Yeah, no thanks.

[Binkie The Clown]

8. It just annoys me

when somebody claims to be superior to me because they believe fairy tales are true.

[Freelancer]

9. People stopped binding their daughters feet when it wasn't considered attractive anymore.

When those that have allowed the God-shaped hole in the mind to close are seen to be happy and funny and smart and free, it's encouraging to others.

Followers of faith, furtive and fearful at first, frequently flower into firm future friends.

That's when you destroy them utterly! (Just kidding)

[edhopper]

10. I know these would certainly work on me.

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/02/09/10-things-i-wish-christians-considered-before-arguing-with-atheists/36113

https://answersingenesis.org/is-god-real/what-is-the-best-argument-for-the-existence-of-god/

[cleanhippie]

21. OMG, I think the shyster may have gotten their debate tips from this article!!!!

“When self-interest, partisan identity, or strong emotions are involved, reasoning turns into a lawyer, using all its powers to reach the desired conclusion.”

Remind you of anyone?

[edhopper]

24. I find lawyerly tricks

are incredibly weak in these debates. We're not the OJ jury.

[trotsky]

25. Lawyers!

[cleanhippie]

22. 1. Make sure you’re arguing about the same definition of God.

Shit, ed, we've been trying to get them to define the god they believe in since day 1, and STILL can't get a single one of them to start with this.

[edhopper]

23. I think I had a 500+ post thread on that

[AlbertCat]

27. "Ask about meaning and purpose."

Oh please.

We, human beings, we assign meanings and purposes to things. They are concepts our brains created.... because of evolution.... so we could survive.

For instance....9/11 has much meaning to us because all those innocent people died. And it SHOULD. But, y'know the pigeons in NYC didn't care about any of it. Rats didn't. Even little infants, like one year old or less, didn't care about it...until later when their minds had created a concept of "meaning".

"Purpose" is even more removed. We assign purpose to things. The dog's bowl has a purpose to a human, and the dog might even look in it for his food. But that's because YOU assigned that purpose to the bowl. The dog expects food there because that is where YOU usually put it. The dog doesn't care about his bowl, he'll eat the food if you throw it on the floor. He know nothing about his bowl or even what a bowl is, except that YOU usually feed him there.

"Life MUST have a purpose!" No it doesn't. It's what happens because of chemistry.

"Why do you get up in the morning then?" Because I like sunny days, Bach, my friends and their society, and a host of other things I can experience before oblivion. I certainly am not spending my time worrying about some nonexistent "afterlife".

[Brainstormy]

11. You might be interested in

reading Everybody is Wrong About God, by James A. Lindsay. My Secular Humanist Book club is doing this book this month, and while I read lots of this stuff I found it a breath of fresh air and a little shocking, too, in that his contention is that we shouldn't have any more philosophical arguments about "God." (He always uses scare quotes.) He says the argument was won a long time ago. That we give credence to superstition and myth when we even involve ourselves in philosophical/theological debates about "God." (Read: the Easter Bunny, Big Foot, Satan, etc., etc.) He says we shouldn't even "do" atheism anymore because it only exists in relationship to theism, which is bunk. Pretty liberating actually.

[progressoid]

12. Frankly, I don't think many arguments work on any serious believers.

BUT...it does have an impact on those on the fence or those questioning the old dogmas.

[Iggo]

13. Yep. I'm not trying to change their minds.

But I can see their kids listening.

[lindysalsagal]

15. And the secondary effect happens when a believer rants about us to a doubter:

It counts whenever someone hears about another doubter. People need the time with the unindoctrinated to believe their own inner doubt.

It's never a waste of time to tell a fundie he/she's wrong. They're followers, after all. If they hear from enough atheists, they'll follow us, too.

[lindysalsagal]

14. Wrong on #2: We would not have invaded Iraq if it had been a christian country. Period.

The religion may be the excuse or the selling-point for an otherwise political or economic campaign, but it nevertheless serves in important purpose: Hatred of the other.

Religion makes hatred of the other noble, sacred, and patriotic.
Religion makes evil acts seem holy.
Religion acts as a wedge to manage political assets.
Religion excuses selfishness, laziness and irresponsibility.
Religion makes people blind, uncaring and stupid.
Religion makes people ignore their own capacity for knowledge, memory, and critical thinking.
Religion makes the afterlife count more than the people who are on the planet, now.

[lindysalsagal]

16. IMHO, anyone who is arguing for their faith to the faithless has already found a crack in the veneer

A true believer wouldn't bother at all.

[Promethean]

17. Why am I seeing so many serious responses

to a well known and obvious satire website?

[DetlefK]

18. Cracked isn't satire. Cracked is comedy.

Most of Cracked's content is fact-based list-articles with actual research, where they desperately shoehorn in some bad jokes to keep it light.

Very few of Cracked's articles are pure comedy... and they suck. These authors are too self-absorbed and just not funny.

Also, very few of Cracked's articles are satire.



Cracked is also making comedy-videos... and they used to be really, really good. Nowadays good ones have become rare.

[RussBLib]

19. so, IOW, these are the best 5 arguments

[AlbertCat]

26. For every one God you disprove, two new Gods will be made up

This is why you deny the SUPERNATURAL.... not just gods

No ghosts, vampires, pixies, and of course gods.... because if it exists in this universe, it is natural. Even Dark Matter & Dark Energy, which we can't see and don't know what it is, but we know is there, because we can see its effects on things we CAN see.... even that is not "supernatural".

The only way for anything to exist in this universe is:

1) the laws of physics (whatever they are) allow for it

and

2) the circumstances (no matter how improbable) have come together for the laws of physics to allow it to be.