Did Jesus Really Exist? This Book Series Says Hes Mything in Action

[NeoGreen]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/03/24/did-jesus-really-exist-this-book-series-says-hes-mything-in-action/

Did Jesus Really Exist? This Book Series Says He’s “Mything in Action”
March 24, 2017 by Hemant Mehta

Several years ago, atheist author David Fitzgerald wrote a book called Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed At All. It was an overview of some of the strongest arguments he knew that disproved the Christian narrative, but there were a lot of questions left unanswered. Why did so many biblical scholars (including non-religious ones) insist Jesus existed? Were the “Jesus myth” arguments all equally viable? What evidence was actually out there to support the idea that a real singular Jesus ever existed?

So Fitzgerald began working on a follow-up book. But several years later, that research, even when edited, clocked in at more than 900 pages. So he split it up into three volumes and called it Jesus: Mything in Action. (As he says in the books, “I just gave birth to triplets.”)

All three books are now available online. As I’ve said about his work before, this is not written like a dull academic paper. It’s easy to understand, even if you’re new to the subject, and it’s an important debate that doesn’t get nearly as much attention as it should.

[Cary]

1. Why do stories written by Bronze Age people have to be literally true?

Isn't it the underlying meaning that is important?

[NeoGreen]

3. When the underlying meaning is...

..."Love Me or Burn" and there are people who make real-world decisions in this age, based on the limited knowledge base of Bronze Age understanding (e.g. Flat verses Spherical Earth), as if they are literally true then 'Yes', it is more than necessary to expose the Mythology as Mythology.

[Cary]

5. I am not Christian

But I don't think the underlying message has to be turn or burn. That seems to me to be something generated by the selective "wisdom" of Evangelicals.

I would be more of like mind with the late Joseph Campbell.

I think you misunderstood my question. I was agreeing with you, but also suggesting that it's ok to see it as myth. There is no need to insist on knowing the unknowable.

[NeoGreen]

6. Sorry for the "heavy foot"...

...tone in my reply. I think I did misunderstand your approach and read your post as an apologist who would gloss-over-the-god-sanctioned-rape-and-murder that is rife in such historic writings.

As myth there may be some allegories and nuggets of wisdom that may be harvested from the books of the Abrahamic religions, but on the whole, wielded as the weapons as they are today, I would rather celebrate other mythologies to find my wisdom of the ages.

Apologies and thank-you for the rejoinder.

[Cary]

7. I was raised as a Reform Jew

And still identify as such although I am not into the ritual. The whole premise of our theology is thst the Bible is not literally true. It is the story of ancient people searching for their relationship with their creator and the main premise is that God created people and put a little bit of Herself in every person's heart. Therefore to serve people is to serve God.

And I will say that while I am quite negative about the synagogue I was raised in I do, in retrospect, see the value of an organic community. I also have a deep respect for the real charity that really was done by the synagogue.

[mountain grammy]

9. I, too, am impressed with the work done by some religious groups.

I've seen several churches and synagogues in Denver with signs in front that say, "this is a sanctuary for refugees and immigrants" The first time I saw one, I actually started to cry. We need this???
That said, this is the good these groups can do.. I read of one Presbyterian church that sponsors refugees from Syria, Somalia and Sudan so I visited and spoke with the minister, telling him I'm a non believer but would like to contribute to this effort. He said this was his calling in life and, so far, they had helped a few hundred. He knows I'll never be a convert, been there, done that, but I do contribute and have volunteered to collect clothing and other essential items. The lord's work? No, just humanity will do.

[Cary]

11. I have volunteered and have done a lot with Catholic Charities

They can raise a lot of money.

[TheDebbieDee]

29. THIS

[Cartoonist]

2. 900 Pages!

That's a lot of text to prove a negative.

[NeoGreen]

4. Since it is generally impossible to "prove" a directly unobservable negative...

...I would presume that at least 900 pages of evidence would be par.

Or and on a side note, you Pi heretic (or is the proper term Apostate?), learn to embrace the Tau, for all your computational needs:

6.2831853071795864769252867665590057683943387987502116419498891846156328125724179972560696506842341359

You should read the Really Good News:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/let-s-use-tau-it-s-easier-than-pi/

[Jim Lane]

16. It's Adam and pi, not Adam and tau! (n/t)

[NeoGreen]

18. Touche' (nt)

[mountain grammy]

8. In the minds of American Christians.

Jesus is Joel Osteen. What a crock. When I was a kid, some other kid told me I killed Jesus. My mom was Jewish. I went home crying.. my mom always made me laugh. She said, Jesus was a Jew so if someone says that to you, remind them, Jesus must have killed himself.. Son of god???? she laughed, I laughed, and I learned not to take it so seriously.. Thet was some 50+ years ago, before all the damn "prayer warriors" came out of the closets..

[trotsky]

25. Side note, I think this has been discussed before...

but I have always just been so freaking confused by the Christians who are genuinely mad that "the Jews killed Jesus!!!"

Uhhh.. hello?? You guys wouldn't have your religion if SOMEONE didn't kill him, right??? Shouldn't you be THANKING the Jews for it?

[rock]

10. If you have to lie to prove your point ...

You're wrong. I'm not talking about the author of the book.

[LakeArenal]

12. I think he existed....

I just don't believe in divinity.. Just a dude that folks made into a god for their own earthly purposes. Just like the rest of the saints.

[edhopper]

15. quite a few saints

did not exist.

[Brainstormy]

19. I'm indifferent

to whether or not the human Jesus existed, but the more books like this I read--and I will read this one because Nailed was a pretty good one--the more plausible the possibility of pure myth becomes. Richard Carrier also has a good book on Jesus as myth, and there are a surprising number of others.

[OxQQme]

13. Each book available for $6.66

Little bit of humor there.

[Iggo]

17. Oh shit! You're not kidding!

[beam me up scottie]

14. Which one? Historical or mythical?

I enjoy reading Mehta's blog although I still take issue with Patheos changing the category from Patheos Atheist to Patheos Nonreligious.

[Brainstormy]

20. So do I!

They lost me with that move.

[beam me up scottie]

24. It bothers me because many of us actually embrace the label.

We've spent years trying to knock down the stigma associated with atheism and many of us are proud to be infidels. But someone at Patheos decided that it's too offensive and non-inclusive.

[uriel1972]

21. The first problem is pinning down a specific "Yeshu" to be your son of god...

It's not as if there weren't other Yeshu's roaming around Judea.

Secondly, with four conflicting "eyewitness" accounts written at least decades after the supposed events it is difficult to say anything about a "person" Jesus.

Thirdly, no reliable contemporary accounts describe a messianic "Yeshu" at the time in Judea. Which is surprising as we have accounts of a fair few "Messiahs" at that time.

I'll leave it at this, even if there was a historic Jesus we can't reliably know anything about them.

[Iggo]

22. Yep, I imagine there may have been quite a few Jesse Josephsons running around back then. (n/t)

[NeoGreen]

23. I'm Brian and so is my wife!

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. Clever phrase or title, actually.

I dont know why it matters, really.

The vast majority alleging to be Christians act exactly opposite of the way this man acted, if he lived.

So let's say there is a God and Jesus is the son and all that, so what?

There is no justification to end abortion, there is no justification for people like trump or republicans who do the opposite.

Changes nothing.





Psst, there is no god, but again, not the point.

[stopbush]

27. The best indicator that Jesus didn't exist is that the particulars of his

supposed life as depicted in the Buy-bull are the same particulars that existed for other Mediterranean gods before Jesus was supposedly born. There was no need for a real Jesus to have existed in any form upon which to hang the trappings of myth than there was a need for a real Zeus to have existed upon which to hang the trappings of Greek myth.

Couple that with the fact that the writings of St Paul - which were penned decades before the gospels - do not portray Jesus as a corporeal being, but as a spirit who "lived" in a spiritual realm, and who only connected to humans through visions. And, Paul never mentions any of the supposed life events about Jesus that are detailed in the gospels.

[NeoGreen]

30. Cookie Cutter christs...

...
http://shop.ffrf.org/books-and-lit/nontracts/cookie-cutter-christs

Cookie Cutter Christs

Nontracts—the freethought answer to ubiquitous religious tracts. Brief but thorough, easy to read, 3 1/2 x 4 1/4-inch folded brochures address many common myths about freethought or religion.

Introduction to nine of the more than 20 Savior/Sun gods of early mythology, including:

Mithra
Attis
Buddha
Krishna
Quexalcote
Horus
Adonis
Quirinus
Indra

Not to mention the similarities between Hercules and HayZeus: man-god redeemed to live forever in Olympus/heaven.

[stopbush]

32. Well, they're not cookie cutters at all.

There are many attributes assigned to the gods: virgin birth, crucifixion, having disciples, performing miracles, resurrection etc. But not all gods have exactly the same attributes.

Human beings knew how to identify a god because these gods held certain traits that mythology said the gods held. So, if you want to turn a myth into a person, you assign these godly traits to their myth. Voila! A god who walked among humans is born. On the flip side, you can turn a human into a god by assigning a trait or two to their life, the way Julius Caesar picked up the trait post-mortem that he was born of a virgin.

[NeoGreen]

33. So, what your saying is...

...that they may have different colored sprinkles, right?

[stopbush]

35. Essentially. The website Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth states it well:

"...ancient cultures around the Mediterranean shared a set of ideas about Gods and their powers and place in the universe—Christianity adopted those ideas, and applied them to Jesus.

"Ancient people knew godmen did miracles. The first Christians knew Jesus was a godman, so the stories they told about Him included miracles. He even did the same miracles other, earlier Pagan godmen did.

"The core of Christianity—the worship of a miracle working, walking, talking godman who brings salvation—was also the core of other ancient religions that began a thousand years before Jesus.

"Heaven, hell, prophecy, demon possession, sacrifice, initiation by baptism, communion with God through a holy meal, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, immortality of the soul, and many other "Christian" ideas all belonged to earlier, older Pagan faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture. Along with miracle working sons of God, born of a mortal woman, they were common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religion. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more."

[Jonny Appleseed]

28. That's like Mormonism without Joseph Smith

how does it happen?

[NeoGreen]

34. I think the technical term is...

..."creative writing ".

[The River]

31. Like Children

who believe in "magical" thinking, i.e. tooth fairy, Santa, Easter Bunny, etc., early civilizations also believed in "magic". They had no scientific knowledge so everything was attributed to "the gods".

Our scientific knowledge and understanding has evolved. Our rather un-evolved emotional minds still fear death and we will believe anything to prevent the end of the ego self. We invented religion to placate our fear. It did have a civilizing effect and brought some stability to a violent world but it's time we evolve beyond it.

[sakabatou]

36. I've heard of that book on The Thinking Atheist podcast