We don't say we "got gypped" anymore when we got cheated. Because we're better than we used to be.

[Iggo]

We don't say someone who gives you something then takes it back is an "Indian giver" anymore. Because we're better than we used to be.

We don't say that arguing for a better price is "Jewing them down" anymore. Because we're better than we used to be.

But it's still okay to tell atheists that there's no such thing as an atheist. (There are no atheists in foxholes.) Can't wait 'til we're better than that.

I give up. See you tomorrow.

Have a wonderful day!

[Lordquinton]

1. Agreed

Encountering not only that phrase, but hearty defense of it here is disheartening.

But we can do better tomorrow!

[Warpy]

2. Don't hold your breath

because believers are just never going to get the fact that we don't see and feel the almighty presence that they do, or claim to. They just can't manage to wrap their heads around it. It's like explaining blue to someone who was blind from birth, you can talk around it but there is no way you can make them experience BLUE.

The one expression I haven't heard since the 50s except from bad movies is "that's mighty white of you" if somebody does you a favor. I'm glad that one just sort of passed out of favor, probably because there were so many white guys around back then who were total shits. Nobody wanted the comparison.

[Croney]

4. And a few more bad ones...

"You're free, white, and 21" when someone asked if they were allowed to do something. And "white trash," which implies that trash being white is an exception to the rule. And "pot calling the kettle black," meaning that calling something black is an insult.

My mother's long-ago response to my atheism cannot be beaten: "You are NOT! You were raised a STRICT BAPTIST!"

😂😂😂

[Chemisse]

5. This one surprised me. "The pot calling the kettle black."

It never crossed my mind that it was racist, and I use it occasionally.

So just now, I googled it and came up with a blog that analyzed the expression, its origins, and whether or not it could be considered racist:

This saying, which personifies kitchenware in order to make a point about hypocrisy, means “to criticize someone for a fault you also possess.” Per WiseGeek, the phrase dates back to the early 1600s, when most pots and kettles were fashioned from cast iron, a material that acquires streaks of black smoke when heated over a flame.

It is true that, in the context of the expression, “blackness” does not come off as a neutral trait. On the other hand, “black” means something very different when you are a kettle instead of a person. It has less to do with race than with the physical reality of soot and grime accumulating on a shiny surface.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/12/22/the_pot_calling_the_kettle_black_is_the_idiom_offensive_racist_or_fair_game.html

[Croney]

9. That's interesting, but I think it's best not to use it,

since most people today know nothing about soot and grime accumulating on anything. Just as I'd never use the word niggardly in a sentence, even though it just means stingy.

[Warpy]

30. There is nothing racist about that one, it far predates that sort of thing

and refers to cookware over an open fire, whether ceramic or iron. Both had their exteriors covered with soot, so for the pot to call the kettle black was to point out someone else's defects without noticing one's own. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

There is just nothing racial about it and anyone who says there is is just looking for a fight. Avoid him/her as you avoid all belligerent fools who don't know what they're talking about.

[Chemisse]

31. I agree.

I am not going to timidly tiptoe around and not say anything that somebody might think could be racist, yet isn't.

I am happy to avoid using phrases that really do have their roots in racist memes.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Now, now.

Don't get overwrought! I mean, didn't you see the atheists who weren't offended?! Don't they count?



It really irritates me how many people think just because they aren't offended, that something isn't offensive. I can tell you right now I can find a Jew or two who would not be offended by the phrase "Jewed us down". Some of the people defending the use of the phrase are the same ones who will go on and on and on and on...etc... about "microaggressions" against women and African-Americans, sometimes even finding the time in their infinite rage to include discussing those "attacks" against GLBT and "brown" people, but somehow can't be bothered to understand this is a form of microaggression against an actual minority.

Hang in there. Trust me, as a Jew, I get a very similar treatment when I dare to point out anti-Semitism. But, every now and again, you will get through to some, and a few who aren't members of your group will stand up and with you...like me. I am not an atheist, but I do stand with you!

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Thanks, BtA.

It's funny that just asking people to just think about these sorts of hokey sayings from another perspective causes such a defensive reaction.

[LostOne4Ever]

13. Very much appreciated! It's great to have great allies like you!

I don't know about other groups, but I think in this case that the bias against us is so deeply ingrained that they don't even see it as a big deal. They just see whining and don't even consider if it is legitimate or not.

It is similar to how many non believers are actually tend to think other non believers are less moral than believers.

I just found this case particularly offensive as it denies the sacrifices of people like Pat Tillman.

PS: I also wonder at what point something crosses the threshold from "whining" to legitimate offense. Apparently, if it helps "our side" no matter how hurtful it is okay

[beam me up scottie]

17. Thank you again for standing up.

The prevailing attitude seems to be it's best to just walk away, don't get involved, why should you care when it doesn't affect you. Or even worse, jump on the band wagon to settle old scores.

It's not easy stand against the majority, I appreciate your defense of all who are marginalized, BtA.

You're the best.

[Susan Calvin]

23. Thank you. nt

[Piasladic]

32. Thank you

It's nice to have allies like you!

[Warren DeMontague]

6. One would think the experience of the Tillman family with the Bush admin.

Would be enough to cause some reflection on that particular point.

one would think.

[Chemisse]

8. I'm not sure offensive is the right word; it's not a smear exactly.

I find it annoying though, because it is smug and condescending, like if you say you are not Christian, and the other person adds 'yet.'

It's not really comparable to "Indian giver", etc. A smear would be like "as clueless as an atheist" or something like that.

[LostOne4Ever]

14. I appreciate your supportive comments

I just find the connotation particularly enraging as it is denying the sacrifices of people who died serving their country. Some of whom probably were harassed for their views.

[Susan Calvin]

21. And it would have been so easy

to convert a non-factual statement to a factual one, just by adding "some people say." Which I mentioned today - better late than never.

[Susan Calvin]

22. Oh, "yet"!

You are so right. I had both my wedding and my mom's funeral disrupted by that kind of thing, by people who were being paid and who had received clear, specific instructions. Presumptuous assholes.

[lapfog_1]

10. I had a boss in 1983

Who used the "Jew you down" phrase in a meeting. He was reprimanded and forced to make a public apology at a company wide meeting.

Not that I ever would have used such a phrase to begin with as this was the first time I had ever heard of it but it did trigger a response from me to try to never use racial or religious or sexually orientation phrases ever again.

I've been pretty good about that at work and in my personal life.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Thank you!

It shouldn't even need to be said but thanks to all who said it anyway, we know the drill.

Let's run down the list of popular excuses for using bigoted tropes:

But people use it all the time

I don't think it's offensive

I know a member of that minority group and they don't think it's offensive

Don't be so sensitive, I didn't mean anything by it

You're being divisive and you're alienating people

And my favorite - objecting to bigotry makes you militant

[Mariana]

15. My bigoted post has 45,673 recs. So there!

Why are you crucifying people, BMUS?

[beam me up scottie]

16. I know, I really should stop doing that.

I forgot who the real victims of bigotry are.

[Susan Calvin]

19. Heh.

I'm so glad I found this thread.

[LostOne4Ever]

24. This has always been a great group

Especially when you need to vent about anti-atheist bigotry in other areas of the site.

I just don't post in here as much as I got burnt out on debating in the religion room...and the site overall since the primary.

[Susan Calvin]

26. Oh dear, the primary.

Yes, it was rigged by many parties. Yes I voted for Hillary in the general. Yes, I think political parties are essential in our current system. Yes I think the Democratic party has many issues, the first of which is denial - hope they don't keep shooting themselves in the foot.

[trotsky]

33. LOL the ultimate response.

"Lots of people love this saying that's a slam on a minority. What's your problem?"

[Susan Calvin]

28. Bravo.

[Voltaire2]

12. It was the whole shitshow of entitled outrage.

[Susan Calvin]

20. Bingo.

Not to mention telling people how to feel, which has been a bug of mine here for a looooong time.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Or the people who thought the whole thing was like, riotously funny ohmigod TOTALLY

for sure? For sure. He did what? She didn't. She wore THAT?




Yes, the level of discourse - or lack thereof - gets a tad tiresome.


It was made all the more pathetic by the willful ignorance of the fact that, yes, this is an actual issue for real veterans, as demonstrated pretty fucking clearly by what Pat Tillman's family went through.

[Susan Calvin]

27. That was about the level, yep.. nt

[LostOne4Ever]

18. Thank you and Great Point!

I tried the nice route and got burned. I don't blame you for taking a break.

[defacto7]

29. Hey, that's it. I really hope so.

Trying to be better than what we are is what everything should be about including giving a reasonable thought to how we affect others when we speak or write. I can be wrong. I can learn.
When we can't be wrong or refuse to learn, that is the essence of arrogance.