2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumNC GOP party rep says "completed absentee ballots may have been destroyed"
in firebombing. What are completed ballots doing at a Trump campaign headquarters?
North Carolina Republican Party spokeswoman Emily Weeks told NBC News that the office is totally unusable and that materials inside, possibly including completed absentee ballots, may have been destroyed.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nc-republican-office-firebombed-nazi-gopers-threatened-graffiti-n667316
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scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)that campaigns can deliver absentee ballots,I've never heard of such a thing.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)
uponit7771
(91,998 posts)
renegade000
(2,301 posts)that some of the staffers had their personal ballots there and that it was extraordinarily bad timing.
Otherwise, yeah, that's really fishy. The whole thing is fishy.
liberal N proud
(60,976 posts)Maybe he meant voter registration forms, but even those are to be turned in daily.
BSdetect
(9,048 posts)Clear illegality.
Raine1967
(11,615 posts)and in Virginia this is not done. The person could not speak for North Carolina but this person (a very reasonable republican, btw) said there is something wrong here.
Maru Kitteh
(29,233 posts)the handling of ballots. Only certified personnel are allowed to handle ballots, and they are NEVER stored in partisan offices. Period.
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)Request absentee ballots from polling lists.
Fill them out and send them in.
Some people could go to vote and find they had some how requested a mail in ballad.
The Republicans are desperate.
I used to work election day and early voting.
mopinko
(71,965 posts)those who have moved, etc, who ought to be stricken from the roles.
bucolic_frolic
(47,607 posts)a batch being prepared, mail-in or otherwise
do they use paper ballots in NC at the polls?
Any rigging is not being done by Democrats
forgotmylogin
(7,688 posts)If this were true and there were a sackful of absentee ballots in there conveniently near the window that was broken (easily staged-write the message, break the window, splash some water around the ballots to ensure the building isn't destroyed, then light them on fire), someone inside might have decided to destroy the evidence and use the opportunity to make Democrats look bad.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Exactly how many completed absentee ballots were being held at GOP HQ? 
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)She voted by mail.
I had to go down to the election department to get her name removed when she died.
She would get a post card from different people running asking if she needed a mail in ballot.
I had to go there for three elections before her name was removed.
Got to wonder how many names are still on the polling list who are dead or moved on.
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)If there is a problem it can be fixed.
Wait until the election day maybe not.
When i was working early voting we fixed a lot of problems by calling the election department.
I am voting early.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)But studies repeatedly indicate that actual voter fraud is not just rare but exceedingly rare.
Of course the studies could be flawed; Academics aren't beyond ineptitude either; Still, what data we have fails to turn up more than negligible traces of actual voter fraud, as far as casting ballots.
One can fall back on the common sense test, though. If someone wants to try to rig an election, what would be an efficient method?
(1) Casting large numbers of fake ballots, where each such ballot increases the risk that the scheme will be detected?
(2) Finding a way to intercept and eliminate a few shipments of completed ballots (aka ballot boxes, real or virtual), focusing on those from locations known to vote heavily for the opposition
(3) Finding a way to manipulate the counting process
(4) Getting that "butterfly ballot" design from Florida, if you can manage it -- that thing was amazing!
(5) Intimidating or deceiving voters in opposition locations -- for example printing and distributing leaflets just before the election erroneously informing voters that their polling location has changed (I read that has been done with some success)
(6) Intercepting full ballot boxes as in (2) and replacing them with boxfuls of your own ballots
You can probably add more possibilities to the list. All of them sound less risky than (1), and more effective. Casting individual fake votes just isn't an efficient way to cheat.
Sorry about your mother. I've lost both of my own parents, and it isn't easy to get used to the absence -- I'm not sure you ever really get used to it, you just learn to live with it, like an injury. We can at least believe they've gone to a happier place.
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)I just didn't want my Mother's name on the books anymore.
The Republicans run the county government here.
I just didn't my mother name being used for any illegal business.
I sometimes miss them.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)He had said consistently that he was ready to go. But yeah, you miss them, and you want to honor their memories -- you don't want anyone gravestone-scraping their names and applying (illegally) for credit cards or, for that matter, fake id with which to pass as citizens; or to vote illegally on their behalf. Most people feel the same way about that as you do, even most Republicans. Votes being cast on behalf of the dead is a rare occurrence. I have read about rare cases where a live-at-home adult child continues to collect retirement benefits on behalf of the deceased, probably because automated payments keep arriving and they are tempted. Even if an automated process made a ballot be sent through the mail, though, I doubt anyone would take it from the mailbox and use it to cast an extra vote. There just isn't enough benefit to justify the personal risk.
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)My father has been dead for almost 6 years.
Applications for credit cards.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)As a practical matter, to eliminate the possibility of someone picking up a pre-approved credit card letter out of your mailbox. Those pre-approved applications are scary easy to activate.
As a personal matter, it's better for you if you don't keep seeing those things in your mailbox.
texanwitch
(18,705 posts)When i sell the house it will end.
No more mail box.
I have called credit card companies.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)texanwitch
(18,705 posts)I had my mother's mail in ballot come to my house.
She voted and i mailed it.
I didn't even trust the nursing home.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)TPM Livewire - OCTOBER 18, 2016, 6:09 PM EDT
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/joshua-lorenz-pennsylvania-online-voting
A Republican city councilman is in hot water after he shared a deceiving meme over the weekend telling Pennsylvania voters they could vote for Hillary Clinton online on Election Day just by using a hashtag.
According to screenshots posted by blogger Billy Penn, the memes posted by Murrysville City Councilman Joshua Lorenz read "Vote Hillary November 8th" and "You can vote at home comfortably online." Lorenz wrote "more proof that the election is rigged. Only Hillary supporters can vote from their smartphones from the comfort or in the comfort of their own homes," according to the screenshots.
No state allows voters to vote via social media post.
Lorenz told the Associated Press that he deleted the posts, which he said were meant as a joke.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)
blue-wave
(4,488 posts)To much of this story raises flags. It's starting to smell fishy here.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Something is rotten in Denmark!
Cha
(305,861 posts)way of ratfucking-inciting the repubs.
RandySF
(71,150 posts)They're supposed to be turned in or mailed by the voters, themselves.
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)Investigators should be looking at the owner of the building and his finances/credit worthiness.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)Every house fire I've ever known anything about was arson for insurance fraud, or else for the purpose of rebuilding using an existing permit in a location where demolition and rebuilding legally was prohibitively difficult. Only problem is, they picked a dismal example of an arsonist if that was the reality -- a proper insurance fraudster would burn the place down or at least wreck it beyond recognition.
yellowcanine
(36,351 posts)North Carolina - a previously red state which is clearly moving toward Clinton - what better way to rally the Forever Trumpers than to make it look as if Democrats attacked a Republican campaign headquarters?
liberalmuse
(18,876 posts)And the swastika and letters were almost in comic sans. My first thought was an inside job as well, though. The pictures of the damage made me sick. I hope they catch the perps.
~Armchair CSI reporting in.
Siwsan
(27,353 posts)But I thought exactly the same thing. 
klook
(12,909 posts)
radical noodle
(8,820 posts)I've used Comic Sans for years in email because I wanted something different. Guess I'm gonna have to pick something else.
radical noodle
(8,820 posts) 
Zen Democrat
(5,901 posts)He's famous for ransacking his own office in Texas during W's first campaign for governor and blaming it on Democrats.
I think this was such an event because I can't imagine that Democrats draw swastikas. The Alt-Right has lots of experience with that.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
UPDATED: 03:05 EST, 27 October 2008
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080189/Young-Republican-claimed-Obama-supporter-carved-letter-B-face-robbery-story-police-say.html
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)somebody call teh DOJ
yellerpup
(12,263 posts)to bundle and submit to the Elections Board at the end of the day, but NOT completed ballots.
hatrack
(61,194 posts)No way in hell would a county election commission accept ballots that had been in the custody of any political party organization or office.
INdemo
(7,020 posts)Absentee ballots are not mailed to the Republican or Democratic headquarters.
Absentee ballots are mailed to the County Clerks office or the local election commission,depending on the State
This is BS:
" North Carolina Republican Party spokeswoman Emily Weeks told NBC News that the office is totally unusable and that materials inside, possibly including completed absentee ballots, may have been destroyed."
This of course gives Trump more ammo to declare "this election is rigged"
Ahpook
(2,764 posts)But this will blow up in his face if he does 
sinkingfeeling
(53,257 posts)TygrBright
(20,987 posts)A whiff of something hinky going on...
When you complete an absentee ballot in every state I'm aware of, you send it to either the Sec'y of State's elections office or the County elections office.
Not to a Party HQ...
quizzically,
Bright
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)If a Trump acolyte brings up the burnt absentee ballots, just counter with an election fraud charge.
bucolic_frolic
(47,607 posts)and fomenting similar acts right through election day and beyond
Cosmocat
(15,053 posts)cause they have absolutely no business, what so ever, of having any cast ballots.
usaf-vet
(7,018 posts)their own office to deny the right to vote to possible democratic voters. Hopefully this is NOT the same building that the democrats were raising money to replace. And YES what were absentee ballots doing in republican headquarters.
CrispyQ
(38,590 posts)Or will they let the 'completed absentee ballots" slide?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)
Bernardo de La Paz
(51,260 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Why are completed absentee ballots at a GOP HQ??????
Is that even legal?
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)for possession of absentee ballots in NC.
DeminPennswoods
(16,347 posts)It's possible they had some completed absentee ballot applications, but the ballots themselves come with self-addressed (to the county elections bureau/board), stamped envelops.
I remember back around 2000 or 2004, our state Rs sent around post-cards trying to get people to apply for absentee ballots.
Ford_Prefect
(8,216 posts)
appleannie1
(5,205 posts)or main non party elections office, never by one party office.
getagrip_already
(17,549 posts)If you look at the pictures, it's mostly smoke and water damage. The yard signs melted slightly, but didn't burn. Papers on a desk were covered in soot, but still readable. A sofa was burned, but still had a lot of stuffing and covers.
Even if ballots were in a filing cabinet, or in any kind of package out on a desk, they largely would have survived.
Sure, it's a total loss. You can't use a melted yard sign. And the furniture is too far gone. But really, it wasn't a very hot fire as fires go.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,912 posts)Smacks of a set up for publicity to me. Can't see Dems in NC resorting to this kind of, well, let's say it, Nazi tactic.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)but I do not think it's for certain. I know sometimes I get mad enough that I fantasize about stuff like this. I never seriously consider it, of course, but not everyone has my <ahem> admirable self-control.
Blue Idaho
(5,500 posts)How many completed ballots were being held there? Were they GOP staff ballots of voter ballots? If they were non-staff completed ballots - they should be considered "spoiled" ballots as they have somehow wandered outside the system that protects us all from voter fraud.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)If somebody dropped their ballot envelope in an outbox that day, presumably they can go to some elections official and explain the situation, and perhaps obtain a replacement ballot.
Definitely we need more information, which is bound to come out over the next few days.
Say what you will about police, this is the sort of thing they are typically able to handle well.
Blue Idaho
(5,500 posts)But I welcome any and all law enforcement to dig into this crime - as long as they aren't bent. If they can find the criminal - let the chips fall where they may. As far as the ballots go - the GOP office needs to come clean and provide as much detail as possible. We need the whole truth.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)DAVID EDWARDS, 17 OCT 2016 AT 15:54 ET
Democratic officials in North Carolina have asked law enforcement to step up protection of campaign workers after Orange County offices for both the Republican and Democratic parties were targeted on the same day. …
Orange County Democratic Party Chair Matt Hughes told Raw Story on Monday that vandals had also targeted his offices in Carrboro. Both attacks were said to have occurred early Sunday morning.
According to Hughes, staffers found the words “Death to Capitalism” scrawled on the OCDP headquarters when they came into work.
Story at this link:
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/nc-democratic-headquarters-attacked-on-same-night-nearby-gop-office-was-firebombed/
LisaL
(46,766 posts)Nobody is supposed to be dropping ballots in republican HQ.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)mainer
(12,208 posts)When asked if the GOP could have been collecting completed absentee voter ballots, Tracy Ream, the Director of North Carolina's Orange County Board of Elections told The New Civil Rights Movement via telephone Monday, "they cannot do that." She cited the State Board of Elections rules.
Once complete, the absentee ballot "must be returned to the county board of elections no later than 5:00 p.m. on the date of the election," the State Board of Elections website reads. "The envelope may be mailed or delivered in person to the board of elections’ office. Only the voter or the voter's near relative (spouse, brother, sister, parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, mother-in-law, father-in-law, daughter-in-law, son-in-law, stepparent, stepchild or qualified legal guardian) may deliver an absentee ballot in person."
Ream told NCRM it "does not make sense" that the GOP office would be collecting completed absentee ballots, and said her office has not sent the Republican Party blank absentee ballots.
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/_why_is_the_gop_claiming_completed_absentee_ballots_may_have_been_in_their_nc_hq_that_was_firebombed
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)Maybe you could highlight the part of your vast materials where it says a third party cannot post a completed ballot? I see where it says they cannot drop it off in person. I am still not seeing anyplace where it might say a third party cannot drop it into a post box or at the Post Office.
Certainly I don't know North Carolina law, but so far nothing I've seen forbids the scenario where voters drop into the campaign office and happen to drop their completed absentee ballot envelopes into the outgoing mail collection there.
mainer
(12,208 posts)The old link has the same title but you're right, it went to a different place. Just corrected it.
spirald
(63 posts)North Carolina elections law states that the following is a Class I Felony. They specifically state that "possession" by anyone outside the authorized parties is illegal. They do not distinguish between return by mail or return in person. Anything in the "outbox" of an office, if it is not USPS property (it could be a bin by the front door, for example) is in possession of the owner of the office, and a felony if there was intent (for example, if the owner said "leave your ballots in the outbox"
.
http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/BySection/Chapter_163/GS_163-226.3.pdf
G.S. 163
-
226.3
Page
2
(6)
For any person to take into that person's possession for delivery to a voter or
for return to a county board of elections the absentee ballot of any voter,
provided, however, that this pr
ohibition shall not apply to a voter's near
relative or the voter's verifiable legal guardian
There was a case in Texas where people were intercepting absentee ballots, filling them out for a candidate and extorting money from the candidate. This is part of the basis for laws about absentee ballot possession.
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)Texas doesn't count as an example because laws vary by state.
There were recent news stories about Arizona where people who registered voters, mostly rural farm hands without transportation, also collected their completed ballots and turned them in, and the news stories indicate that used to be legal and now it is no longer legal there.
The case you describe in Texas is a crime -- several crimes in fact -- because of what the bad guys were doing with the ballots; It isn't a reasonable basis for prohibiting people handling ballots; that activity can be prosecuted on the merits of the case (e.g. extortion) apart from simple possession of the ballots.
It still sounds as though it is "possible" (to quote them) that some few ballots could legally be on the premises, provided they belonged to staff and their family members.
But thank you for posting that answer, which in fact answers my question, which all the other legal scholars commenting in this thread seemed unable to do. I'm sure it wasn't easy to find. I know I didn't find it when I searched. So thank you for your efforts on that.
Loki
(3,826 posts)Completed ballots in an unsecured office and not mailed to the SOS? This is what stupidity looks like.
Blue Idaho
(5,500 posts)What ever the accelerants used - they were very fast burining - like gasoline. The fire burned itself out before doing any real structural damage. Had they used diesel or something that burns longer - the whole building would have burned to the ground.
I'd say the the constitutionalist Teabaggers that threw this "firebomb" need to go back to the woods and earn their craft. Unless the idea was to create more outrage than damage...
LisaL
(46,766 posts)Blue Idaho
(5,500 posts)
Ardoewaan
(144 posts)Spreading this info around, it is a good counterpoint to the voter fraud narrative of the Trump dumpster fire (can't call it a campaign anymore).
LeftInTX
(30,623 posts)Raine1967
(11,615 posts)I am finding it very difficult to believe that she would have misspoken when she worked in communications. Something is strange here.
Marthe48
(19,336 posts)The instructions say: 'you or a near relative may deliver your ballot in person to the board of elections'....'You may NOT return your absent voter's ballot to your polling place.' Or you can mail it and there are explicit instructions on postage. There are no other choices to deliver your ballot.
Here is a link to NC absent ballot delivery instructions:
http://www.ncsbe.gov/absentee-voting-mail
ColemanMaskell
(783 posts)including the campaign office. Every office of any size has outgoing mail collection. If it goes out at 4:30 and you drop something in at 4:45, it will be in the office overnight. That includes a campaign office. People mailing personal mail from offices is commonplace. Why are people here finding this ordinary activity unbelievable?
spirald
(63 posts)IANAL, but in North Carolina and many other states, it is a Class I felony to "deliver" either a blank or completed absentee ballot if you are not a near relative, legal guardian, or county BoE appointed assistant of the voter.
If someone who is not a USPS mail carrier can legally access the "outbox" of an office, then legally, the owner of the office is in possession of the completed absentee ballot before it is picked up by the USPS, which is technically a felony under the law, unless the "office" consists entirely of near-relatives of the voter.
If it truly was the the case that a couple people happened to drop their absentee ballots in the office mail after the pickup time, it would be easy for them to vote provisionally and have their vote counted when their absentee ballot went missing. Nothing much to see there, and no harm to anyone's right to vote.
It's pretty ordinary to give mail to a friend who's going to the post office. In the case of an absentee ballot, however, it would be against the law, so we can't just assume that what is ordinary for ordinary mail is all fine for something like a ballot. We can't just ignore the potential for election fraud and allow ballots to float around without strict accountability.
Response to spirald (Reply #106)
ColemanMaskell This message was self-deleted by its author.
Marthe48
(19,336 posts)I imagined loads of ballots. Then I thought, 'should anyone be collecting ballots at a partisan headquarters?' Because I just read our instructions on Sunday afternoon and options to return a ballot are pretty clear. In Ohio, you aren't even supposed to use online postage.
We've decided to drop our ballots off at the board of elections, just to eliminate one step in the process.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Makes me think they were going to stuff the ballot box. Arrest the rep, lock 'em up. Take Trump also.
Raine1967
(11,615 posts)No response yet.
BlackM
(26 posts)is there a video of Weeks comment that there may be completed absentee ballots in the office?
I have a hard time believing this was a simple reporter's misquote - "possibly completed absentee ballots" is not something one just randomly hears or misquotes.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)It would be very, very illegal for them to have completed absentee ballots, but they might have had completed voter registration forms and absentee REQUESTS in the office.
Glad no one was hurt. Guys standing around outside Clinton campaign offices with guns and now this..... People have lost their itty-bitty minds.