You guys don't get it: the rust belt working class want to be TOLD, not reasoned with

[LaydeeBug]

I have lived here all my life.

If you ask anyone who voted for Trump around here WHY they did it, they will say FIRST, "Hillary was going to take away my guns"

After that, labor workers with a small number of employees are seeing documented workers get incentives to which they are not entitled, and turn around to take undocumented workers and skirt the taxes the white labor worker pays. I *get* that undocumented workers pay tax, but they don't pay INCOME tax, and Saint Reagan taught them that it isn't fair for them not to...but it *is* hunky dorey for someone who is extremely wealthy to do it.

The dichotomy I referred to in that last paragraph gets to the crux of the matter: These people want a class system, as long as THEY don't feel like they're at the bottom of it. They *want* to bow to someone "greater" than them. They want to *believe* there are some greater than them.

And they are racist.

They aren't overtly racist, they've learned to couch the term 'nigger' and only say it when there are only white people around; (<<<-------- I defy *any* white person who grew up in a blue collar neighborhood to *try* and tell me that isn't the case.) but you'd better have a picture of someone in a white hood with a flaming cross for them to believe someone is, and even then, it's probably photo shopped, because minorities "get everything".

They don't want to be reasoned with. They want to be TOLD. They *love* cock sure. Seriously. They *love* John Wayne, pilgrim. They want to be told to sit down and shut up, as long as they think that accomplishes some spiteful end (and I mean *any* spite nugget) they'll get behind it.

I can't convince any of these people to buy the Brooklyn Bridge...but you can best believe I can get them to agree to PAY for it, ten times over if I just tell them we will keep the "others" away. We will keep the n-words out. We will keep those Muslim terrorists out.

You want no fly, no buy? Show them a commercial where a Muslim cleric getting off a plane, walking into a gun store buys a gun and then walks into a movie theatre and cut to black, and the sounds of shots firing. That kind of basic, primal shit resonates with them.

They don't want to have to THINK about it. They just want someone who is cocksure and will 'get 'er done'. They don't give a shit about bathrooms, other than they were TOLD to be outraged, so they are.

They don't give a shit about those emails, other than they were TOLD to be outraged, so they are.

They don't give a shit about how things work either. These are binary thinkers. They like it concise that way. Wrap it in the flag, tell them if they were real Americans, they'd...(insert it here) and if they're not outraged, they're stupid little pussies.

They also don't give a shit about what WE think. They don't think, because they like to be TOLD WHAT to think, instead of taught HOW to think. It's the meeting of "low information voters" meets the "spite entitlement" I've been coining for so long.

If you doubt it, just ask yourself the question I have been asking since the night of Melania Trump's speech at the RNC: WHERE IS MELANIA TRUMP'S SPEECHWRITER?. <<<<----- They don't care. They were told that isn't a big deal.

What about the Trump Foundation? <<<<------ They don't care. They were told the Clinton Foundation took money from Qatar. They were TOLD that's a bigger infraction, and so therefore it is.

Facts don't *matter* to them, because it is hard for them to discern a fact from an opinion. Really. Truly. This is not new.

They don't want to be reasoned with...they want to be TOLD.

[RKP5637]

1. I often really think some PTB democrats really don't understand the voter demographics

and value structure.

[LaydeeBug]

2. I want to be clear: I wasn't talking about Democrats...I was talking Blue Collar, not Blue Party

it's a very important distinction

[RKP5637]

3. Yep! Thanks! n/t

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

43. You're still wrong, though

There are a few of those, but that's not the majority. I come from a rural, blue collar area. I'm also a registered Independent swing voter. There are a few things that really hurt Democrats with blue collar and rural people, depending on a few things. Most rural blue collar people own guns. Hunting is a way of life. There's not a whole hell of a lot to do in rural areas. Many people collect guns or other things. They DEEPLY RESENT being told they can't have, do or say something. Some of this group are really religious and are deeply bothered by abortion and feeling like the left are trying to force them to accept GLBT rights and same sex marriage. They DEEPLY RESENT being told that they MUST change their beliefs.

The biggest, most universal thing...Rural blue collar folks DEEPLY RESENT what they deem to be a "nanny state." In other words...they take GREAT OFFENSE to the left's tendency to think they know better than everyone else and that their way is the right way and everyone else must conform. Guns, God, Abortions, Same Sex Marriage, etc...those are all just ways in which that resentment of feeling like things are being forced down their throats manifests itself. They feel like vegans being pressured and told that they HAVE to eat meat and LIKE it because protein is good for them.

[LaydeeBug]

48. No. I'm not. And when you said, "There are a few of those" you fucking admitted it

maybe you aren't exposed to it on a larger level because there are fewer people in your rural area.

But you can't deny it doesn't exist, and telling I'm wrong about something that you turn around and acknowledge in your very first sentence is a bit hypocritical.

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

56. I have relatives and friends in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Ohio

I even lived in Pennsylvania for awhile. My relatives are NOT racists and they sure as hell don't like being "told" anything. You're trying to paint all people with one broad stroke and that is JUST as obnoxious and offensive as those on the other side making unfair generalizations. It's not OK....ever.

[yardwork]

62. Maybe your relatives get called racist because they are racist.

[LaydeeBug]

71. this is *another* problem here...these guys want to BE racist, they just

don't want to be CALLED racist.

they think our tolerance should tolerate their intolerance. (circular logic, I know, but that's where we are)

[Hekate]

57. Your post actually seems to support the OP without you wanting it to

There's a culture of grievance and resentment out there.

Just sayin'

[musicblind]

59. You've only been here since August.

So maybe you don't know how DU works, but if you're suggesting that we shouldn't force people to give equal rights to LGBT citizens then you are not going to get much support here.

Honestly, I would rather cut them out and form a plan that doesn't involve their states if they can't accept LGBT rights. It's not us "thinking" we are right on that issue. We ARE right on that issue.

That is not like telling a vegan they have to eat meat. That is like telling a dog fighter he can't abuse his dogs.

Just because you want to do something, doesn't mean you can. Especially if one part of society is greatly victimized.

Period.

[yardwork]

61. I'm sick of hearing this. Nobody is taking their guns.

If they don't like gay marriage, they don't have to get married to someone of the same sex. If they don't approve of abortion, they don't have to have one.

THEY are the ones who want everybody else to be like them. They can't stand it that laws are changing to allow other people to have some of the same rights they themselves have always have and will continue to have.

[musicblind]

65. Exactly! They sufferer from Authoritarian Personality Disorder.

Tell me this doesn't define them:

...three tendencies as noted in attitudinal clusters. These are: 1) submission to legitimate authorities; 2) aggression towards sanctioned targeted minority groups; and 3) adherence to values and beliefs perceived as endorsed by followed leadership. McCrae & Costa (1997)

The ego-defense mechanism of projection occurs as indicated when that person avoids self-reference of the anxiety-producing id impulse, by displaying them onto "inferior" minority groups in the given culture (projectivity), with associated beliefs that are highly evaluative (power and toughness), and rigid (stereotypy). Additionally, there is a cynical view of humanity and a need for power and toughness resulting from the anxieties produced by perceived lapses in society's conventional norms (destructiveness and cynicism). Other characteristics of this personality type are a general tendency to focus upon those who violate conventional values and act harshly towards them (authoritarian aggression), a general opposition to subjective or imaginative tendencies (anti-intraception), a tendency to believe in mystic determination (superstition), and finally, an exaggerated concern with promiscuity.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality

[yardwork]

67. Sounds familiar!

[SharonAnn]

25. Read this article for perspective. "On Rural America - Understanding Isn't the Problem"

http://forsetti.tumblr.com/post/153181757500/on-rural-america-understanding-isnt-the-problem

"As the aftermath of the election of Donald Trump is being sorted out, a common theme keeps cropping up from all sides-”Democrats failed to understand white, working class, fly-over America.” Trump supports are saying this. Progressive pundits are saying this. Talking heads across all forms of the media are saying this. Even some Democratic leaders are saying this. It doesn’t matter how many people say it, it is complete bullshit. It is an intellectual/linguistic sleight of hand meant to throw attention away from the real problem. The real problem isn’t east coast elites don’t understand or care about rural America. The real problem is rural America doesn’t understand the causes of their own situations and fears and they have shown no interest in finding out. They don’t want to know why they feel the way they do or why they are struggling because the don’t want to admit it is in large part because of choices they’ve made and horrible things they’ve allowed themselves to believe.

...

What I understand is rural, Christian, white America is entrenched in fundamentalist belief systems, don’t trust people outside their tribe, have been force fed a diet of misinformation and lies for decades, are unwilling to understand their own situations, truly believe whites are superior to all races. No amount of understanding is going to change these things or what they believe. No amount of niceties is going to get them to be introspective. No economic policy put forth by someone outside their tribe is going to be listened to no matter how beneficial it would be for them. I understand rural, Christian, white America all too well. I understand their fears are based on myths and lies. I understand they feel left behind by a world they don’t understand and don’t really care to. I understand they are willing to vote against their own interest if they can be convinced it will make sure minorities are harmed more. I understand their Christian beliefs and morals are truly only extended to fellow white Christians. I understand them. I understand they are the problem with progress and will always be because their belief systems are constructed against it. The problem isn’t a lack of understanding by “coastal elites” of rural, Christian, white America. The problem is a lack of understanding why rural, Christian, white America believes, votes, behaves the ways it does by rural, Christian, white America."

[Wellstone ruled]

27. Thanks,

One of the better explanations I have seen. Totally agree after spending fifty plus years in Sales in mostly Rural Midwest. You find out who the real Players are in your Sales Territory and if you want to succeed,you had better understand the dynamics of your customer base.

As Rural America changed from a Agricultural base of small farms to what we see are Mega Corporate Farms,personal belief systems hardened around the big three,God,Guns and Gays. As someone who left the Rural Society knowing full well the opportunities for me were slime to none and slim was packing his bags and moving to the big city for his opportunity.

And in that,our Democratic Party of FDR lost it way by not talking with the people and listening to what they are saying. Instead,our Party went to the talk at the people with a message that is not being received by people.

If you do not attend meetings or Local events,people look at you and say,boy that person is sure stuck up or snobbish. And in that,pretty much how it goes. Been there and done that.

[maddiemom]

29. And as for the lack of critical thinking in many of these Americans...

Teaching their children critical thinking in school often runs up against the obstacle of the parents feeling that their strongly held beliefs are being challenged.

[RKP5637]

35. Very well said! Thanks for the link!!! n/t

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

36. I didn't want to get mired down in politics today, but couldn't resist having a look at DU.

Wan't going to even sign in. But then I read your post. The article you quote is saying exactly what I've been trying to put into words!

Without built-in protective functions like critical analysis, self-reflection, openness to counter-evidence, willingness to re-evaluate any and all beliefs, etc., bad information in a closed-off system ends up doing massive damage in short period of time. What has happened to too many fundamentalist belief systems is damaging information has been allowed in from people who have been granted “expert status.” If someone is allowed into a closed-off system and their information is deemed acceptable, anything they say will readily be accepted and become gospel. Rural, Christian, white Americans have let in anti-intellectual, anti-science, bigoted, racists into their system as experts like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, any of the blonde Stepford Wives on FOX, every evangelical preacher on television because they tell them what they want to hear and because they sell themselves as being “one of them.

The truth is none of these people give a rat’s ass about rural, Christian, white Americans except how can they exploit them for attention and money. None of them have anything in common with the people who have let them into their belief systems with the exception they are white and they “speak the same language” of white superiority, God’s Will must be obeyed, and how, even though they are the Chosen Ones, they are the ones being screwed by all the people and groups they believe they are superior to.

Because this questioning didn’t take place, the Great Recession didn’t lead to any meaningful political shift away from poorly regulated markets, supply side economics, or how to respond to a financial crisis. This is why, even though rural, Christian, white America was hit hard by the Great Recession, they not only didn’t blame the political party they’ve aligned themselves with for years, they rewarded them two years later by voting them into a record number of state legislatures and taking over the U.S. House. Of course, it didn’t help matters there were scapegoats available they could direct their fears, anger, and white supremacy towards. A significant number of rural America believes President Obama was in charge when the financial crisis started. An even higher number believe the mortgage crisis was the result of the government forcing banks to give loans to unqualified minorities. It doesn’t matter how untrue both of these are, they are gospel in rural America. Why reevaluate your beliefs and voting patterns when scapegoats are available?

“Rural, white America needs to be better understood,” is a dodge, meant to avoid the real problems because talking about the real problems is viewed as “too upsetting,” “too mean,” “too arrogant,” “too elite,” “too snobbish.” Pointing out Aunt Bee’s views of Mexicans, blacks, gays…is bigoted isn’t the thing one does in polite society. Too bad more people don’t think the same about the views Aunt Bee has. It’s the classic, “You’re a racist for calling me a racist,” ploy. Or, as it is more commonly known, “I know you are but what am I?”

I need to go back and read that more carefully later, but after a quick read, it looks like I agree with the writer 100%. If you don't make this it's own OP, I'm going to. But can't until tomorrow, so please do! And if it sinks because everyone's taking the day off and enjoying Thanksgiving, I'll try to post it tomorrow. This needs to be read. I can't believe the most honest and reasonable thing I've read about this election is a tumblr post, but it is.

The only thing missing is that I don't think the population that article describes would be large enough to sway the election. There are other groups, for instance wealthy Rs who expect to gain financially from Trump's admin, as well as a few other groups.

[LaydeeBug]

49. I read this earlier on 'kos, and it is very insightful

thank you for it

[yardwork]

63. Many of us "coastal elites" grew up in "the heartland."

We had very good reasons for leaving.

[JimBeard]

68. I am a liberal farmer. I haven't left because I liked farming too much. Am retired now

and don't go to church or go to the senior citizens center.

They keep getting Medicaid funding to help build on to the hospital and built a new nursing home.

I have my very small pool of friends for my sanity. Hillary only got 18% of the vote but that is a landslide for the the Texas Panhandle.

[lostnfound]

4. There's a lot of truth to this, I think. Nt

[DinahMoeHum]

5. And this is precisely why those suckers will NEVER get. . .

Last edited Sat Nov 26, 2016, 09:41 AM - Edit history (1)

. . .near even sniffing distance of the jobs Trump is promising them.

It wasn't the Mexicans, it was the microchip.

Hell, it's happening in the auto industry now, even as we speak.
It's happening even in China. Automation is replacing people in assembly jobs.

And since the electric cars/EVs have already left the station, the auto industry here in the US is going to be even more adversely affected, since the EVs have lesser to no need for certain parts in regular cars.

New jobs, industries and companies that come around have no place whatsoever for anyone who doesn't have a high school diploma plus 2 years community college. These new jobs require education, something those poor suckers do not emphasize in their families.

Which is why the non-white and female citizens will move past them in social status and they'll remain stuck at the bottom. The former value education much much more.



Sorry, LaydeeBug, I have no pity left for those people. If they have no eyes to see or ears to hear, there's no point in reaching out to them. Hell, the best among them have already left them because they know better.



PS: Sorry to be so angry.

[LaydeeBug]

7. Oh I completely agree with you, except that...

if you *TELL* them, and I mean, not "we need to address the 'low information' voters" and instead say, "Hey, you fucking *idiot*. Wake the fuck up", in a lot of instances, they hear you.

Don't ask them. TELL them.

Tell them it's GROSS to cut 'little old lady' benefits...not "social security is solvent and beats the stock market at nearly every metric"

Ask them what our Veterans fought for if we let our own go hungry on the streets.

etc, etc, and so forth

[Fast Walker 52]

11. I have a feeling they could only be TOLD by an old white rich guy, though

[LaydeeBug]

13. or some really well placed ridicule. nt

[Fast Walker 52]

15. coming from who, though?

[johnfromokc]

37. Calling them idiots, morons, dumbasses, etc. hasn't converted one single teabagger for me....

Hey Laydeebug! Your post came across my Facebook feed, and being a southerner from Georgia, living in Oklahoma, It spoke to me. I'm not much of a forum posting guy - but this got my attention.

I've been arguing with these folks for many years. I've tried being nice and I've flat out bitch-slapped them, and everything in between - not a single convert.

But mostly I think you're right. These people have listened to 25 years of right wing talk radio and Fox News and they are glued to the Drudge Report and the right wing blogosphere. These people are marinated in propaganda and I don't think there is any way to reach 99% of them.

They're a lost cause - at least the vast majority are. Some folks might have voted for Trump to send an F-you message and will return to the Democratic Party after the crash and burn of this election passes. But the hardcore Trumpanzee is in it for the long haul - all the way to unemployment and foreclosure in the Trump economy. They'll say "Those libtards caused the economy to fail!"

[LaydeeBug]

41. I was *going* to cuss, but it's T-Day, so let's just disagree.

nt

[JHan]

23. Preach.

I keep saying it. None of the candidates were asked how they would address this , instead we got a year of Trump controlling the narrative.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

6. I've lived here all my life too, and I don't think we've crossed the same people.

There are indeed a small number of racists that I've encountered who've used the n-word when African Americans weren't around.

I've likewise overheard AA men talking quite differently among each other when they didn't think white people could hear them. Even their dialects changed. They went from sounding like Neil Degrasse Tyson to sounding like Ice Cube. It reminded me of this Key & Peele skit:

I think most white people around here are like most people - selfish. They're more worried about themselves and their family's well-being.

Fair or not, Hillary had NAFTA attached to her because Bill signed it.

The number of gun nuts that I've worked alongside who get upset about banning assault rifles or large clips has blown my mind too. I ultimately consider that to be self-centered behavior too. They believe that THEY are responsible gun owners, never mind that having a bunch of assault rifles in our society more easily allows mass shootings to happen.

I even worked with two white guys who seemed very bright and pretty "liberal" about most things, but they told me that they were voting for Dum(b)ya back in 2000! When I asked them how they could vote for that IDIOT, they replied that it was payback for Clinton signing gun legislation and how they were convinced Bush would not renew the bans.

[LaydeeBug]

8. Oh, we're crossing the exact same people, alright...you are spot on. nt

[Buckeye_Democrat]

17. There isn't much of a sense of "community" anymore.

I don't think segregation has helped matters. I'm not talking about forced segregation like what happened in the South, but the type that happened around here (whether it's considered "natural" or something else).

Almost all white people that I've met LIKE their African American co-workers, even among the ones who seem more racist than normal. There's just a few of them who get caught up in media coverage of riots and the like. I likewise suspect that some AA's get caught up in media coverage despite how they sometimes live in nice suburbs and might be hard-pressed to offer personal examples of bad encounters with cops and the like. I told a black co-worker about a bad cop experience in my life, but he didn't have any similar experiences to share with me. Maybe he just didn't feel like mentioning it, though?

To be honest, I'm sometimes amazed that our large civilization works as well as it does considering how our ancestors existed so long in Africa (and later elsewhere) in very, very small communities. It's kind of ingrained in us, I think.

[OnionPatch]

34. I grew up in Ohio

I left as a young adult but go back visiting regularly. I do see a lot of people like those described in the OP but I can't help but want to defend the good people there because I know many, including a lot of my family. They are outnumbered and are frustrated with their right-wing neighbors as much as we are. Those areas have been hard-hit economically and have had "brain-drain" because of their failing local economies, so it's not that surprising that "the stupid" often wins out there.

I don't see how just writing off the whole Midwest is going to help us, especially with the Electoral College choosing our presidents. Support of working class issues will help them along with the rest of the working class so it seems like a no-brainer to me. Sadly the Dems have not been our champions as much as they could or should have been, IMO. I share rust-belt anger about NAFTA. I'm basically a rust-belt refugee because my home town started morphing into a ghost town right when I was of the age to start a career. That started with Reagan but you're right that Bill Clinton's support of NAFTA advanced it and shifted the blame to the Democrats.

[MADem]

9. So fuck 'em. I say stop trying to appeal to them. We've met the enemy, and they are them.

I'm not going to stand by while a bunch of morons flush our nation down the crapper.

Never again!!

[LaydeeBug]

70. Yep. Because they need to be TOLD, not coddled. nt

[HelenWheels]

10. You are right on

I live in Wisconsin where most of the people here never met a fact they believed. It's impossible to talk politics with them because they deal in emotions, not facts. Oh, and we have many racists here, too. Used to be a great state to live in but I believe it has become the state of the uneducated. The great unwashed public no longer believes in education thanks to Gov, Walker'r vendetta on teachers.

i think I should move across the Mississippi to Minnesota and get out of Wississippi.

[Fast Walker 52]

12. oh-- I bet there's all kinds of "facts" they believe about Hillary being the devil etc

[melman]

14. Wow

What a hateful thread.

[Grey Lemercier]

18. truth hurts??

Sod those racist, homophobic, misogynistic know-nothings. They can go fuck themselves with those goddamn xian bibles they thump to justify dehumanising us and then to destroy our lives.

[Efilroft Sul]

16. I grew up in a (former) steel town south of Pittsburgh.

What you typed here is true. Some of the people you speak of are my family members, and reasoning doesn't work with a lot of them. Each and every one of them is going to get reamed hard by the Trump administration, but so long as they're left with a dollar and the blacks have nothing, they're down with that. America will have been made great again.

[Hoyt]

19. Yep, they cannot stand for minorities to "get" anything but ticket back where their ancestors came

from. When Trump moved to the front of the pack with his deport Mexicans and Make America White Again campaign, it was clear he had a chance. White wingers ate the hate up.

[LaydeeBug]

47. They also inflate what they think they get...it's not just 'low-information', it's *stupid*

you have to be *stupid* to believe a woman gets an abortion so late in the term that she could give birth the next day.

People *believed* that. This is because you have to be *stupid*

[treestar]

33. Yep

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
~
LYNDON B. JOHNSON, 1960, remark to Bill Moyers, "What a Real President Was Like," Washington Post, 13 November 1988

[yardwork]

66. I think that is fundamentally America's whole problem, right there.

[NickB79]

20. I grew up in central MN. Michelle Bachmann territory

No a lot of manufacturing, but lots of farmers, lots of farmhands, lots of hunters, very rural kind of life.

And you're pretty much spot on with what you said. Especially the point about how they claim they're not racists, but will start dropping N-bombs when only white people are around. It took me back to family Christmas's and Thanksgivings, where all the aunts and uncles would gather around the table, eat turkey and potatoes, smile and laugh, and bitch about the niggers, wetbacks and chinks taking jobs, getting welfare, and destroying this country.

It was a wonderfully uncomfortable day for them when I brought my non-white girlfriend (now wife) to meet the family. Very, very quiet that year around the dinner table for some reason

[Ligyron]

21. You are correct in this.

We need a young, probably as yet unknown figure to speak to these people.

Help if it were a tough guy type, sorry ladies, unless Rhonda Roussey is available, lol. It's more important to regain power than to just put another pretty face up to get beaten to a pulp.

Disgusting I know, but ...

[progressoid]

22. Agreed. But this goes beyond the rust belt.

You'll find that attitude across the nation.

[jalan48]

24. This is what passes for dialogue when workers fight for scraps.

[LaydeeBug]

50. This is so spot on...yep. They tore down a steel mill (career) and they'll build

corporate offices and say they created 'jobs'.

[wisteria]

26. Sigh. How do you reason with the unreasonable?

[LaydeeBug]

38. ridicule. nt

[Hayduke Bomgarte]

28. Very well said!

[bucolic_frolic]

30. They've traded their guns for Social Security, Medicare, a Free Press, and the Environment

and they think they're brilliant

[Mc Mike]

31. You look like a good person to me. I agree with you some, but not all, Laydee B.

There are racist whites around my rustbelt area in Western Pa. I work construction in Allegheny, Butler, Armstrong, Westmoreland, Greene counties, all rustbelt. I'm a white guy and work around a lot of white guys, and it's been a long time since anyone said the n word around me. The last time was over a decade ago, in Greene county, an old, well-connected obvious klan member said it to me.

There's no doubt that it's still being said around here, but no where as much as in the '70's and early '80's, among the general population I've interacted with. That being said, during Prez O's first term, our city's old arena was torn down, and a new one was built. The electrical contractor that got the job had one of the owners' family members working on the job, and he put a noose in the break area, where a group of Black electricians took lunch break. The new arena was being built in a Black neighborhood, too. There wasn't a big formal complaint filed by the union Black electricians, but they all got laid off from that job. That project was funded with government disbursed tax dollars, to boot. None of the laid off electricians pushed a complaint about the incident or the lay offs, because they have to go out tomorrow and work as a minority among a bunch of white workers, and they don't want to get a bad reputation as a "troublemaker" with other contractors.

That contractor with the racist family running it is a repuglican contractor, fundy christians also. It's one of the largest electrical contractors in our jurisdiction. They don't speak for blue collar white workers under them, and those workers didn't hang that noose or back the owners' racism.

My only actual point of disagreement with you, on the prevalence of racism in the rust belt, is that the election results aren't kosher. There are too many vulnerabilities in the electronic systems used to record or tally our voting preference. Those vulnerabilities were exploited this election. So when you see a "sea of angry racist know nothing white rust belt dwellers", you see a number that is wildly inflated, out of proportion to reality, a phantom army of white rust belt racists.

There are timid people who don't know which way to jump, and are in fear that they are out of step with the "massive'' amount of racist dRumpf backers. But committed people who are loudly opposing dRumpf racists give more timid or uncertain people a reason to not try to blend in and act racist. And there are plenty of us out there. Millions more, even according to doctored "official" counts.

I'm not typing to be disagreeable with you, just to give you some hope. Keep fighting against them. We did it with Nixon, raygun, li'l bush, we can do it now. I still have my Clinton campaign button on, and wear it around all the time, like a safety pin.

[LaydeeBug]

39. Your point of contention is apt, for sure, because the KGB, Comey, suppression,

all of that matters. All of that happened, and lessening this to "it's about bathrooms" or "we need to tear down and build back up" does not get us anywhere, moving forward.

[treestar]

32. I agree

I've run into that type of person. When you finally get mad at them, they admire that because you are "tough" and they finally do what you want.

All this talk of having sympathy for them and being nice to them is inapplicable. They just think you are a "wuss."

[NeoConsSuck]

40. And they are racist??

Is this the same rust belt that supported a black man (Obama) over Mr. White Bread (Romney)?

What a hateful post.

[LaydeeBug]

46. Please note that I did NOT reference Democrats...but please proceed. nt

[mtnsnake]

42. Your cup runneth over with hate

What a crock

[LaydeeBug]

45. Your cup runneth over with spite

what a bullshit contribution

[pbmus]

44. Best to hold a bible and gun while you are telling them to bow

[LonePirate]

51. What is this: "documented workers get incentives to which they are not entitled"

What in the world are you talking about here?

[oasis]

52. I shed no tears for the plight of "deplorables ".They deserve what's coming.

Great OP btw.

[Bob41213]

53. Racist/sexist/homophobic when they don't vote the way you want...

Half these people voted Obama. I'm really through trying to argue with this sort of blame everyone but yourself.

[LaydeeBug]

54. Sorry sweets, but you're just incorrect. And supporting a racist *IS* racist, whether

you like it or not.

[gollygee]

69. Half?

Where did you get that? I live in the rust belt and I know ONE person who voted both for Obama and Trump. It isn't a large group of people. Certainly not half of the people who voted for Trump voted for Obama.

[Hekate]

55. Very interesting POV. I'll give it some thought.

[yardwork]

58. I grew up in rural Ohio. You are exactly correct.

[JimBeard]

60. These are the people who get caught in the supermarket checkout line because

some food stamp persons cards will not work or takes forever. They make just barely over the amount of cut off and they don't get benefits. They are pissed and I don't blame them. If the benefits were staggered it would be nice but the Republicans would never do it. Proof....

The Republicans had control of the Senate when Dan Glickman was Sec of Agriculture with Clinton. When testifying before the Senate Ag Committee, the Republicans ask, You are going to pay this benefit to ALL farmers, not just the needy. Make it so expensive they have to kill it.

Any way, I have been through all this shit, twice before with Reagan and the little bush kid.

[musicblind]

64. You entire post just defined Authoritarian Personality Disorder to a T.

Seriously, read the wiki article describing this disorder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality

Excerpt One:

The ego-defense mechanism of projection occurs as indicated when that person avoids self-reference of the anxiety-producing id impulse, by displaying them onto "inferior" minority groups in the given culture (projectivity), with associated beliefs that are highly evaluative (power and toughness), and rigid (stereotypy). Additionally, there is a cynical view of humanity and a need for power and toughness resulting from the anxieties produced by perceived lapses in society's conventional norms (destructiveness and cynicism). Other characteristics of this personality type are a general tendency to focus upon those who violate conventional values and act harshly towards them (authoritarian aggression), a general opposition to subjective or imaginative tendencies (anti-intraception), a tendency to believe in mystic determination (superstition), and finally, an exaggerated concern with promiscuity.

Excerpt Two:

...three tendencies as noted in attitudinal clusters. These are: 1) submission to legitimate authorities; 2) aggression towards sanctioned targeted minority groups; and 3) adherence to values and beliefs perceived as endorsed by followed leadership. McCrae & Costa (1997)

There is also something called Right Wing Authoritarian Personality Disorder, but that isn't exactly the same as APD and it doesn't mean the same thing as a conservative or what not. It's not on a political spectrum since conservative means different things in different parts of the world.