2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHow we regarded election fraud and systemic bias in the primary
Get a load of these threads' comments:
27 Percent of New Yorks Registered Voters Wont Be Able to Vote in the States Primary
We need a wambulance
UPDATE ON EMERGENCY LAWSUIT FILED IN NY OVER VOTER PURGE
My Letter to Nate Silver on the Huge Exit Poll Discrepancies Were Seeing in the Dem Primaries
Irregularities overshadow U.S. presidential vote in New York City
Sanders bumped off D.C. ballot
Bernie is demanding a recanvass in Kentucky over ONE delegate ...
It's all fun 'n games until....
uponit7771
(91,768 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)OK, Russia did it.
Happy now?
uponit7771
(91,768 posts)... well, happier than blaming Clinton first when there's so many outside factors that are tangible, documented and quantifiable...
yeah... sad about Russia that... fuck them
Squinch
(52,787 posts)Botany
(72,496 posts)"Russia successfully riled up Bernie Sanders die-hards against the Democratic Party by leaking minor
intrigue that fueled their suspicions, aggravating a Clinton liability with young voters that never healed."
- New York Magazine
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512652244
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)It was the last link in that list. Here you go:
Bernie is demanding a recanvass in Kentucky over ONE delegate ...
Keep in mind, people are now calling for a redo of the entire presidential election (votes and all), but a recount of a single state primary was foil hat buffoonery or something. Can't blame that one on the imaginary berniebros.
Demsrule86
(71,023 posts)systematic bias either.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Either grow up or get out of the way next time.
skylucy
(3,854 posts)Wikileaks re. the Dem. Primary were done to make Bernie supporters not vote or vote for third party during the General Election. Also, the emails did not show anything unfair to Sanders had taken place. They just showed a few lower level people had said snarky things after Hillary had wrapped up the nomination with enough votes and Bernie stayed in at the race too long. Even Bernie's campaign manager said that those emails didn't amount to much and that there was plenty of snark in the Sanders campaign's emails in the heat of the primary battle.
It is odd that someone on DU is fixated on the Trump campaigns talking points (Trump and his shills certainly spent plenty of time trying to poison the minds of Bernie supporters against Hillary), instead of being concerned about the fact that we have a president elect who is Putin's puppet and was elected with lots of help from Putin, Comey, etc.
hlthe2b
(106,385 posts)Really?
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Another bunch of useful idiots.
SidDithers
(44,269 posts)Sid
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Response to DanTex (Reply #9)
Post removed
Demsrule86
(71,023 posts)during the primary?
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Here's a counterexample. https://politicaladarchive.org/ad/polad_berniesanders_ckd5l/
Thanks for playing.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I think you need a refresher on the concept.
jalan48
(14,408 posts)While we focus on Russia exclusively, the GOP will ram their awful legislation down our throats. If Russia is indeed involved to the level many of us think they might be, where are our Democratic legislators and leaders? Why aren't they encouraging citizens to join them in the streets in protest? Something isn't quite adding up.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I'm not saying they are right or that they are right not to be screaming from the top of their lungs. I'm just saying that I think any attempt to remove Trump will result in wide spread violence.
That being said, I wish Obama would declare an emergency and bring in the national guard, state we are going to have a revote and see where the chips land. But I know my wish will never come true.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)The Russia threat is real. Putin is a Hitler or Stalin wannabe. Screwing up our country gives the Russians ample time to take over Eastern Europe, the Ukraine, etc.
The Russia threat is NOT a diversion. The Trump presidency IS a diversion, by design.
You have it exactly backwards.
jalan48
(14,408 posts)Are you saying these folks don't really know what is going on?
Squinch
(52,787 posts)did that?
It isn't something they've ever done. So what are you talking about?
jalan48
(14,408 posts)Is this a big deal? Should Democrats and Americans do everything in their power to stop Trump? Or is this really getting blown out of proportion by some paranoid people? Have we seen anything like this before in our history? That's what I'm talking about-which side are you on?
Squinch
(52,787 posts)then the Russian intervention in the election is fake news. It isn't fake news. Your position is moronic. Which side are YOU on?
jalan48
(14,408 posts)President Trump is only six weeks away. I'm sensing you don't think that is all that serious. Perhaps he will look into the Russian interference and provide the American people with a full accounting? You are probably right, Democratic leadership should remain calm and await President Trump's actions on the issue.
Squinch
(52,787 posts)YOU are suggesting this is a false flag operation.
Your slip is showing, buddy. A lot.
jalan48
(14,408 posts)Maybe you'll get out to one of the demonstrations coming up. I hope they don't get rowdy but given your concerns you just might want to stay on the sidelines to be safe. Perhaps watching on TV is the way to go for you.
Squinch
(52,787 posts)shenanigans have proven effective for you guys.
Still wanting to insist that this is a false flag operation? Funny! Bolton just said the same thing. You seem to have advance information.
Buckeye_Democrat
(15,044 posts)Swaying voters in other ways? We've been dealing with that kind of propaganda for years from Republicans.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Demsrule86
(71,023 posts)We lost everything...and will lose the courts for a generation...those who failed to vote for Clinton cost us progressive policy since Roosevelt...now I have no doubt the Democrat elected will filibuster and McConnell will break the filibuster...and do what the GOP has always wanted to do...and I would appreciate it if People who are progressive would refrain from blaming Democrats for what the GOP does...not that it really matters at this point. And as for those who believe that if you tear it all down (the Democratic Party) ...well you got your wish...and maybe this time you will learn for all time ...that never happens as in not ever. We had a shot to enact serious progressive policy and blew it because of petty politics...damn shame.
jalan48
(14,408 posts)I'd like to see our leaders get more excited about this travesty. A few are speaking out but most are curiously quiet. Comparisons of Trump to Hitler and Mussolini are all over DU. Are we just over-reacting?
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)And in part because some Bernie supporters fell for it. Even if they held their nose and voted for Clinton, I bet not many got out their wallets or volunteered to to work in her campaign like they did for Bernie. Am I right or not?
jalan48
(14,408 posts)I saw on another post that Putin was retaliating against Clinton because he thought she had interfered in his election in 2011. So much blame to go around and it seems to be growing and never ending.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8355119
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)... when he had is people work against Hillary the general election because he thought "he had interfered in his election in 2011". "So much blame to go around"? That's past sick!!!
The only thing Hillary did to "interfere in Putin election" was to point out what most international observers of the Russian 2011 were saying - that Putin had rigged the election - which he certainly had.
This is what the Putin calls interference - from The Daily Caller
In December 2011, Russian Prime Minister Vladamir Putin criticized then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for interfering in Russian elections after she demanded an investigation of whether Putins party had rigged the parliamentary elections, thereby denying the voices of the voters.
Russian voters deserve a full investigation of electoral fraud and manipulation, Clinton declared in early December of that year. Regardless of where you live, citizenship requires holding your government accountable, she said later.
Clinton also argued that rigged elections prevent the people from having their voices heard.
The Russian people, like people everywhere, deserve the right to have their voices heard and their votes counted, Clinton said while in Germany. (Independent election monitors, its worth noting, reported widespread ballot stuffing by pro-Putin actors.)
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/25/dec-2011-hillary-clinton-angers-putin-demands-investigation-into-russian-electoral-fraud/
So Putin and his buddy rig the Russian elections and when someone call them on it and you insinuate that it's okay for them to try to rig our election in favor of Trump as well. Yea, I can see why you might think Hillary got what she deserved.
jalan48
(14,408 posts)Not sure where you got that. This is our former ambassador to Russia speaking.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)....as insinuating that Hillary brought on the Russian hacks and Wikileaks revelations of stolen emails on herself"
I saw on another post that Putin was retaliating against Clinton because he thought she had interfered in his election in 2011. So much blame to go around and it seems to be growing and never ending.
Well?
jalan48
(14,408 posts)Where did your first sentence come from?
......as insinuating that Hillary brought on the Russian hacks and Wikileaks revelations of stolen emails on herself"
I didn't write that.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts).... Which reads as follows:
I saw on another post that Putin was retaliating against Clinton because he thought she had interfered in his election in 2011. So much blame to go around and it seems to be growing and never ending.
And you apparently can't understand why I might comment on on your statement (above) by saying, "You seem to be insinuating that Putin was justified when he had is people work against Hillary the general election because he thought 'he had interfered in his election in 2011". 'So much blame to go around"?
Apparently you either were insinuating that Hillary brought the Russians hacks on herself or you have trouble understanding how other people will react to your posts. Either way you need to think before you post.
jalan48
(14,408 posts)My intent was to show how "blame" has taken on a life of it's own, not rationalize Putin's behavior. I think we need to get past the blame stage and on to a strategy for the future.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)I agree with your premise.
Bernardo de La Paz
(50,929 posts)If a judge convicts a violent criminal of spouse abuse and then later they get out and kill the judge, then your logic would say "the judge brought it on her/himself".
When person A does something to anger B who then retaliates against A does not mean that A "brought it on themselves".
It doesn't matter if A and B are business people where A blocks a merger & acquisition by B.
It doesn't matter if A is Hillary and B is Putin.
It doesn't matter if A and B are posters on DU where an angry B cyber-bullies A in retaliation.
Posters like Jalan and other DU posters are perfectly within bounds to assert that A bothered B and then B retaliated. When they do so, they can't be accused of "insinuating" that A brought B's illegal or unethical actions down on themselves.
CajunBlazer
(5,648 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(50,929 posts)skylucy
(3,854 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)and god it is frustrating.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Hillary was winning.
Besides, being concerned about an elections integrity when there is ample reason is Shock doctrine? Do you think Klein would really agree with that?
Response to hellofromreddit (Original post)
jalan48 This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(54,796 posts)It was a temporary clerical issue that was quickly resolved, though some wanted to make it into a conspiracy theory. The irony of the complaints about closed primaries while depending on the far more restrictive caucus system exposed that access to the ballot was not a concern at all. We had people here (following the lead of one of their favored radio entertainers) in utter outrage that some states allowed the elderly and the disabled to participate in caucuses via proxies. Then we had people insisting the votes of Southern states shouldn't count at all. Then after it was mathematically impossible for Sanders to win, they insisted the votes of citizens should be discarded in favor of polls by corporate media outlets. That was a particularly notable irony given the campaign rhetoric about corporations.
It was then I learned how little democracy and equal voting rights meant in certain quarters. Far too many were eager to jettison citizen rights to install in power their favored member of the political elite.
This OP would seem to constitute your excuse for Russian interference in the election. After a couple of days ago you insisted voters were not to be blamed for their choices, you now post some threads in an effort to blame voters for their choices.
I find it interesting how anxious some are to make excuses when they like the results of an election, while condemning similar or far lesser things when a contest doesn't turn out how they want.
JHan
(10,173 posts)complain about closed primaries..
....... then rely on caucuses ( which are sooo democratic) /sarc
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)I'm pointing out that the excuses made then undermine the concern some around here express today. In some cases it's the very same user names, amusingly enough. It's an example of why we ought to have some damn principles all the time, not just when we feel like it.
FWIW, I'm confident that the weirdness in the primary didn't flip the election, but the insulting way concerns were addressed (as you can see in the examples provided) helped nobody, and effectively drove away some voters. And I don't mean just the posters in here, I mean the party. The party treated its own primary voters like trash because they didn't respect those voters or their concerns.
Its no wonder Clinton lost after her buddies in the party poisoned the well of young voters. If anybody cost Clinton the GE, it was Clinton's campaign, the DNC, and their sycophants in the PACs. You best fix that, 2018's coming.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Possible blackmail and wiki's dissemination of exaggerated and false negative stories in the media?
You'll be reminded that those stories were first spread during the primaries. By Dems. Not calling THAT out, I see.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Election interference is totally excusable when it helps, and utterly inexcusable when it doesn't. Even as far as mocking our own voters. That hypocrisy made space for this kind of mess, and the reason democrats in power are largely downplaying it is because they don't want to eat a bunch of crow.
I also happen to believe that the hacking isn't the reason Clinton lost. Now, if we get some evidence that voting machines were tampered with and results were actually manipulated, that's a very different ball of wax. But right now all the talk is about them taking advantage of incompetent IT within the DNC (it has been incompetent for quite some time) and airing out their dirty laundry.
In a way that's amusing, seeing as it's a dem president at the helm during the vast expansion of invasive domestic electronic spying. Seems like they'd know to prepare better. Either way, it did reveal some actual bad behavior, like the DNC treatment of the Sanders campaign, the odd way donations to states was siphoned back to the presidential campaign, and Brazile's collusion and cheating. The hackers didn't make that stuff up; it's all verified at this point, and it made Clinton look bad. Had Clinton's campaign and allies behaved as they're supposed to, there would have been a whole lot less impact from that dump.
Next time I'm psychic I'll make it a point to do things in the order you like best.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Start talking like a grownup if you want my attention.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Not going to kick this chickenshit OP that tries to criticize Dems for being hypocrites when you equate a normal primary with what the Russians have been doing.
It's complete bullshit and no one is buying it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)A foolish consistency is indeed, the hobgoblin of little minds.
Two different forms of activity, two different post analyses, two different pre-analyses, three different players, two different levels of voting, etc. But other than that, they're precisely the same, regardless of your psychic pretenses...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)Demsrule86
(71,023 posts)It doesn't matter, I will ignore you.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Cowering behind obvious implication is good politics. It allows one to easily deny their own convictions when called on them, and instead, advertise a narrative that doesn't exist...
skylucy
(3,854 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)lapucelle
(19,532 posts)Nobody games our primaries. If you want a voice in selecting the party's nominees, you need to declare your affiliation before the previous year's general election.
I spent weekends in September and early October in PA helping to re-register Democrats who had been thrown off the rolls due to new registration requiremjents. In mid to late October, we helped devise voting plans for the working poor. Whining about being uninformed and missing deadlines because you were too busy to look up they information on your iPhone and then declare party affiliation by filling out a short form on a website is a complaint of the privileged.
I canvassed in PA with people who had voted for Sanders in the primary. They knew how important it was.
Those newly disenfranchised by the gutting of the Voting Rights Act were counting on us to show up on November 8. We let them down.