So, Hillary had Russian intelligence, the leader of the FBI, Trump/GOP, the Media, Bernie or Busters

[stevenleser]

and various other holier than thou Progressives against her and the fact that she was the first woman candidate from a major party with all the attendant sexism and she still won the popular vote?

And the BoB crowd is still saying she wasn't a strong candidate?

[SidDithers]

1. But Bernie was leading in polls!!...

Sid

[TheBlackAdder]

22. And what fomented the loss of Indys, X-Over Reps and Millennials? HRC selecting Kaine over Sanders

.


Still at this? And before the flamers hit, I am a staunch Democrat & voted and promoted for her election.


It completely overlooks the sentiment of many towards HRC, the resentment of the DNC and political institutions.


There were a multitude of factors that led to the stars aligning the way they did.


While Sanders attracted more Indys, Cross-over Republicans, Millennials, and true progressives, HRC was more centered on traditional Democratic base support. As public perception changed though the primary, when people actually saw that there might be a valid alternative, HRC selectively co-opted Sanders' positions only when they were politically expedient to win a state. One state she'd denounce his positions, because they were Dem strongholds, then she'd co-opt him in coal country or areas of extreme liberalism to neutralize any difference between the two. Then, she'd switch back. This behavior fed into the GOP narrative that she'd do anything to win. This is political reality, if one were to step out of the Democratic Party lens for a moment.


But, without me writing a 10 page dissertation, I'll summarize it in a short paragraph.


Ronald Reagan and GHW Bush really fucking hated each other, to the point where it created a schism in the party. Instead of remaining divisive, they came together to defeat Carter and win three presidential elections. Clinton chose to kick dirt in the Sanders' supporters eyes by selecting Kaine, not learning from political history. She took the gamble that voters would go binary and not vote for Trump, because he is, well... Trump. That act prevented her from having a 60-40 win, something that would have survived any Comey or other last minute trick, by jettisoning those Indys and disillusioned voters. The belief that women would side with her, when the past 45 years, since ERA, shows a solid 45% of women vote GOP--due mainly from evangelical/orthodox support for paternalism. This trend denial is an astonishing contortion of political historical fact. This was a tactical failure on HRC's part, as the collective nation gasped and then said, "Who the fuck is Tim Kaine?"


.

[pnwmom]

35. What makes you think Bernie wanted to play second fiddle?

Or that he is someone anyone could have worked with? There was no indication of that in his Senate career, where he was always a loner, not a joiner.

[TheBlackAdder]

36. More assumptions and hyperbole based in perception, not reality.

[OKNancy]

2. yes.. you see some want to deny that the Russian involvement

or Comey had little to do with her loss. It doesn't fit their hate ( I'll call it that even though they deny it) of Hillary.
It doesn't fit the lies they believe about her.

[LaydeeBug]

3. Yep...and it is never ending. nt

[bettyellen]

28. Because they bought into the hate completely and salivated over Guccifer and spread this

Propaganda themselves.

[Basic LA]

4. But the Puritanicals saved us all.

They voted their conscience.

[stevenleser]

5. And over at JPR they are still posting comments patting themselves on the back for just that

despite all the evidence of what a disaster Trump is going to be for anything remotely resembling Liberalism or Progressivism.

[bettyellen]

33. When Manny started calling himself "comrade" I knew he was playing to the

fools who actually wanted to be propagandized here. Lots of people were already of a predisposition to hate, and he leveraged their weakness.

[Me.]

6. And Yet They Can Believe

That Nina Turner will be the next governor of Ohio

[planetc]

7. What if she also had Republican vote tamperers, and actually won the election, both ...

popular and Electoral College? What if she did that, too? What if the Russian hackers are a distraction from the number of red-shifted elections we've had in this country since 2000? What if she just won, and we have no way to prove that? What if every day that passes since the election gives vote tamperers more time to cover their ... crimes? What if you can certainly bury or shift enough votes to change an election but it's nearly impossible to prove, or at least prove quickly? And what is a self-respecting democracy doing with this horrible mishmash of unauditable voting systems anyway?

The more my brain goes around on this, the more I'd like to rerun the election, except the same people would be counting the votes. Maybe we could get enough volunteer lawyers to staff those precincts in Michigan that disappeared 75,000 votes? If they stiffed the people in Flint, I'd really like them to get another shot at being heard.

[libtodeath]

8. Gee,maybe you should be more worried about the Russian hack then digging up the primarys

I was a Bernie supporter that voted for Hillary so keep your insults to yourself or just go back to trying to be famous on a fake news network that panders to the racists and sexists that voted for the cheato.

[stevenleser]

10. Maybe I can walk and chew gum at the same time. But thanks for your concern. Oh and BTW

this forum is for among other things, rehashing the primaries. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the admins.

P.S. your hero Bernie also appeared on the same network. I await your public condemnation of him.

[stevenleser]

13. Or more likely you can't handle the points being raised so you are going ad-hominem?

JPR is over there--------------->

that's where you belong

[libtodeath]

16. Nice try to smear me but your posts show exactly who you are and beholden to.

[stevenleser]

17. Nope, you are the one who can't debate facts. nt

[stevenleser]

15. Nope, everything you accused me of you also accused Bernie of, but you havent figured that out yet.

[libtodeath]

18. Appearing for an interview is the same as promoting a anti american network.

You are just sad.

[stevenleser]

19. And if you believe that, then Bernie did the same thing. I realize you can't respond but

you really ought to try something else other than political debate, you are terrible at it.

I suggest bowling.

[ucrdem]

55. status confirmed

[WhiteTara]

9. And the loser of the primaries is being

touted as the one to save us all. We live in interesting times.

[ismnotwasm]

11. They've always been full of shit

[SidDithers]

20. Comey...

https://twitter.com/BruceBartlett/status/807979181392990208?lang=en





Comey absolutely had an impact.

DU rec.

Sid

[stevenleser]

64. It can't be because Bernies special sauce was what would have saved us.

[David__77]

21. I voted for Clinton. She lost.

I don't take that as a sign of a candidate's strength, which isn't to say there aren't strengths in this case- just a failure of what I consider to be the most important test.

And, by the way, Sanders lost too.

[classof56]

26. In my opinion, we all lost.

Not that my opinion really matters, but I'm beyond trying to analyze the whys and wherefores. We all lost, Mother Earth among us.

For the hundredth-+ time since the election, I feel sick, hopeless, and on the verge of tears.

Peace.

[dogman]

23. She was a strong candidate with a failed campaign.

Her campaign failed to inspire enough voters in the right places to win the election. Who is responsible for her campaign? Her?

[Gore1FL]

24. No she wasn't. The nation is sick of political dynasties. Jeb Bush lost for the same reason. nt

[tecelote]

25. "And the BoB crowd is still saying she wasn't a strong candidate? "

Way to go. As we should be coming together, you still have to get the digs in and keep our side divided.

If our side is your side, that is.

[stevenleser]

34. Were you BoB?

[tecelote]

43. I voted for Bernie then I voted for Hillary.

Time to come together now.

[stevenleser]

46. I don't want unrepentant BoBers or Naderites or Pumas in my coalition

Anyone who thinks it's better or no difference to have W vs Gore, McCain vs Obama or Trump vs Clinton after all the evidence to the contrary is someone either too dumb or too stubborn or both.

[tecelote]

47. Hang on to your hate, it makes you look just as smart.

People learn and change heart. I'll keep working for inclusion instead.

[stevenleser]

48. Nope, not hate, empirical analysis. You should work on understanding what that means. nt

[tecelote]

49. Oooh!

Am I to be impressed?

If you understood the meaning you would know that is exactly where I get my view. Hate is not good for building a strong foundation for our party.

I know. You disagree.

No need to reply. I am done with you.

[stevenleser]

50. What you do or don't do is of no concern to me.

I'm pointing out the problems in your thinking.

[el_bryanto]

53. What do you mean by unrepentent

I think that Bernie was the better candidate and I'm not going to "repent" of that, but I voted for Hillary Clinton and wish she had won. I certainly don't regret supporting Sanders in the primary though.

Bryant

[stevenleser]

57. It means those who did not vote for Gore, Obama or Hillary and believe that was the right choice. nt

[melman]

44. That's a clever game

But not really.

There's a lot of that "if you're not x the OP is not about you" stuff lately. It's pretty lame.

[stevenleser]

45. Words have meanings. If you are going to be offended by a characterization

Of a group of folks, the obvious question is whether you are in that group.

The only people who would consider that "lame" are folks with an agenda they don't want exposed.

[AlexSFCA]

27. In retrospect

Comey did have an impact by crippling enthusiasm towards Clinton enough to lose by a few thousand votes. However, the fact that this election was so close and could not survive Comey, means the campaign was very inefficient.

Think about it: she did not campaign in Wisconsin at all. It was a colossal mistake to not choose Sanders as her running mate thus preserving the enthusiasm. The campaign should have a laser sharp focus on jobs and rust belt states to counter Trump. It also felt that Clinton camp was very arrogant and overconfident dismissing the fact that it was Trump's economic message (no matter how silly) that resonated with those voters, they absolutely do not care about the wall.

[uponit7771]

30. Comey, voter suppression And Russia... Empirical factors everything else is guessing

[uponit7771]

29. Did she light her hair on fire and blow up Isis? No?!?! Well there it is then

[KPN]

31. Only because so many here at DU ...

have come out and blamed Bernie and BoBs for her loss -- which is pure poppycock. There are a myriad of reasons behind her loss, many of which you pointed out in your post. But Bernie isn't why she lost ... and she was a vulnerable candidate from the get go whether she deserved to be or not.

What I don't get is why the Hillary camp keeps this up when most, if not al,l of us Bernie supporters still here at DU actually voted for her in the GE.

[Glassunion]

32. Hillary was probably the most qualified person ever for the job. But I voted Bernie in the primary.

Hard for me to put into words, but basically Bernie excited both my wife and myself.

We lost in the primary.

So we voted for her in the general. We lost again.

I wouldn't count myself as a "holier then thou" type of progressive, but in the primary I was against her. In the general, I was not against her. But I did not sing her praises.

[Yurovsky]

37. And people wonder why the support from Progressives was lukewarm...

The OP calling committed progressives "holier than thou" is just a typical slam against folks like myself. Hell, even when I went back on my word and voted for Hillary in the general, some of my fellow Democrats bitched that I hadn't done enough. Like some how me giving HRC - an extremely wealthy person - a few hundred dollars would have made a difference.

I think a lot of Bernie voters came around and voted for HRC, even if we had serious misgivings about her. Yet we're the "holier than thou" crowd?

I give up. At some point the smarter folks in our party who are spending hour upon hour looking for someone to blame for Hillary losing will finally come to the conclusion that many like I have - she's just didn't come off as relatable or likeable. She has to ultimately accept responsibility
and help the party move on.

[betsuni]

38. K&R

[Cha]

39. Oh, they're trying, Steven.. falling flat

[stevenleser]

40. They are heavily invested in that Sanders special sauce. nt

[Cha]

41. It's ridiculous.

[oasis]

42. Hillary was always committed to hard work and getting things done.

Sadly, she lacked the talent for selling pie-in-the-sky.

[janx]

51. And here I thought it was finally OK to come back...

[jalan48]

52. With Trump in power how will the media, FBI, GOP and Russia change?

Our only hope is to have huge victories which means appealing to as many different Democratic voters as possible. I'm not optimistic at this point.

[denbot]

54. Three words for you concerning Hillary's abilities as a candidate.

President Donald Trump

[stevenleser]

59. Five words back at you...

She Won The Popular Vote

[Exilednight]

56. A few questions for you.

1. How is that Bill Clinton gets impeached and his approval ratings go up?

2. If Bill could do that, then why couldn't Hillary turn the email issue around on Republicans?

3. How can President Obama win without the PUMAss voters, but Hillary couldn't win without the BoBs?

4. How did President Obama win MI, PA, and WI being an African-American and the tea toddlers calling him a Muslim, but Hillary could not?

5. I've said it before and I'll say it again, popular vote doesn't matter. That's the equivalent of someone arguing that their team should world champions because they have more fans despite the fact they lost the required points needed to win. Why should I care about the popular vote when we all knew the rules going in.

[stevenleser]

60. A few answers

1. How is that Bill Clinton gets impeached and his approval ratings go up?
A. Because he was six years into a successful Presidency where the economy was booming and foreign relations were doing well. There is nothing like success to beat back your critics.

2. If Bill could do that, then why couldn't Hillary turn the email issue around on Republicans?
A. See my answer to #1. If she had been six years into a successful Presidency it would have been no problem.

3. How can President Obama win without the PUMAss voters, but Hillary couldn't win without the BoBs?
A. Obama had a massively failing Republican President to hang around his GOP opponents neck. We could have run Ted Bundy and won.

4. How did President Obama win MI, PA, and WI being an African-American and the tea toddlers calling him a Muslim, but Hillary could not?
A. See my answer to #3.

5. I've said it before and I'll say it again, popular vote doesn't matter. That's the equivalent of someone arguing that their team should world champions because they have more fans despite the fact they lost the required points needed to win. Why should I care about the popular vote when we all knew the rules going in.
A. If fundamental principles like Democracy are important to you, then the popular vote getter in an election should matter. If those things aren't important to you, then you might be able to brush it off.

[Exilednight]

61. My Retort

Because he was six years into a successful Presidency where the economy was booming and foreign relations were doing well. There is nothing like success to beat back your critics.

That answer could hold water if it weren't for the fact that his approval rating spiked a record 10% in less than week.

The difference is, Bill knew how to spin the story against Republicans, something Hillary was unable to do. According to her own admission, she is poor retail politician.

See my answer to #1. If she had been six years into a successful Presidency it would have been no problem.

You have to win before you get six years. Besides that, Bill had allegations leveled against him before he even won the presidency. Again, why can he do it, and she can't? In case you are wondering, see what I typed above.

Obama had a massively failing Republican President to hang around his GOP opponents neck. We could have run Ted Bundy and won.

Hillary ran against THE MOST UNQUALIFIED candidate in the history of this country. Obama ran against what many pundits and strategist from both parties viewed as moderate Republican who could bring stability and sanity back to the Republican Party.

If fundamental principles like Democracy are important to you, then the popular vote getter in an election should matter. If those things aren't important to you, then you might be able to brush it off.

First, we don't live in a democracy, we live in a Republic which is a representative democracy. Should the popular vote matter? Yes. Does it? Absolutely not, and it probably never will in our lifetime.

I will guarantee you this though, if roles were reversed and Hillary had won the EC and Trump won the popular vote, you wouldn't be crying about the popular vote getter not winning. That's the definition of hypocrisy.

[stevenleser]

68. Now you are being silly

What point do you think you made regarding the weekly fluctuation of Bill Clinton's popularity in the wake of impeachment? It doesnt address my point at all.

None of the rest of what you wrote is objective.

[Exilednight]

70. "Now you are being silly", says the man who can't

Rebuff any of my critiques.

[stevenleser]

72. I already rebuffed them. Nothing you wrote addresses my points. It was just silly. Nt

[Exilednight]

73. You made excuses, not rational points.

Her stumping and ability to put issues back on Republicans was weak, at best.

She openly admitted to not being as gifted a speaker as Obama and Bill.

[DemonGoddess]

58. K&R!

I'm going to ignore the naysayers on this thread. They think their messiah figure is the only one to "save us all", much like trumpler's disciples.

[AgadorSparticus]

62. It is not just her anymore. It is the entire democratic party too

The entire democratic party is all wrong now.

[stevenleser]

63. Or it's the few of you who enabled the election of Trump and/or "W" and/or

Tried to enable the election of McCain.

Yeah, that seems more likely.

[AgadorSparticus]

65. That's right. I am just THAT effing powerful. Nevermind the propaganda media machine

Working tirelessly against us.

[stevenleser]

66. Nope, you're not. But as in any Democracy, group enough folks together and they can influence

elections. You got what you wanted. We don't have President Hillary.

Now own it. Trump is all yours.

[AgadorSparticus]

69. I Got what I wanted? I WISH!!!....You're not paying attention....

I am such an ardent supporter of Hillary and the Democratic party.

Because I am a strong supporter of hers and the Democratic party, I am tired of the circular firing squads of people spewing RW talking points about Hillary. And never discussing the propaganda machine that is our media. It is VERY powerful and effective in what it can do. Just ask the other 16 members of the Republican clowns against Trump. So, for all those folks bitching about Hillary's campaign 'flaws' and disregarding the media or voting green, you folks need to own up to Trump.

I have done nothing but defend her and the democratic party. You got me confused with someone else.

[Garrett78]

67. Not to mention the Shelby County v. Holder decision, and 25+ years of vicious slander.

Yet she received about as many votes as Obama received in 2012.

Eliminate any *one* of those factors (excluding Trump/GOP opposition, of course) and Clinton is the President-Elect right now.

[duffyduff]

71. Some people are resistant to facts. n/t