Cyber War *IS* *STILL* an act of WAR. This is TREASON.

[LaydeeBug]

plain and simple.

[Jose Garcia]

1. Treason committed by whom?

[LaydeeBug]

2. welcome to du. nt

[Jose Garcia]

3. Thank you!

[MFM008]

7. Jose

By every one who knew about hacking and covered it up.
McConnell
Ryan
Maggot
Pence
His staff
Maggots idiot kids

Traitors

[Jose Garcia]

8. Who told them about it?

[MFM008]

9. Well since I didnt take the call myself

I could only say it was a scum bag like Paul Manafort ( or did you forget him) with direct ties to the Kremlin.
Thats WHY they "let him go"............. or ass hat Roger Stone or any number of unsavory creatures.
Someone knew and THEY knew. They knew the fix was in.
Think about it.
Don't expect to come here to be all supportive to the maggot.
You will meet stiff resistance.

[Jose Garcia]

10. So, you are simply assuming that they knew without any actual proof?

[MFM008]

13. no but im assuming

your on ignore.

[Qutzupalotl]

14. Trump's team knew about upcoming Wikileaks revelations

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/14/clinton-camp-roger-stone-knew-about-wikileaks-email-hack.html

Sometime before the end of July 2016, the Clinton team began to suspect that Podesta’s emails had been breached, a campaign official told The Daily Beast. In late August, more than six weeks before Wikileaks started dumping Podesta’s emails, Stone began making dark insinuations that suggest he knew that a Podesta scandal would soon be revealed.
“Trust Me, It Will Soon The Podesta's Time In The Barrel. #CrookedHillary,” Stone tweeted.
“Stone pointed his finger at me, and said that I could expect some treatment that would expose me,” Podesta told reporters Tuesday.



And we know Wikileaks has a direct line to Russian operatives connected to the Kremlin.

[Jose Garcia]

16. Thank you.

That is the info I was looking for.

[triron]

4. My thoughts as well.

[Blanks]

5. He owes money to foreign banks...

Forget treason, that's too hard to prove. The explanation for why we have the electoral college is to prevent someone from taking power that 'owes' foreigners.

Obviously I'm paraphrasing and even simplifying, but if there is proof that Trump personally owes money (or has holdings) in a foreign country he's in violation of the framers justification for the electoral college.

His financial records need to be made public before the electoral college vote so that his qualification can be evaluated before the electors cast their vote.

[LaydeeBug]

6. this is a very cogent point, but just because it's hard to prove doesn't mean

they didn't fucking do it.

They did.

[ZoomBubba]

29. Unless you have proof ...

... you only have insinuation and belief, which is something conspiracy theorists rely on. We have to base our attacks on things that have solid evidence, not something of which we have mushy footing.

[meow2u3]

43. If the right wants to use insinuation and belief

I think two can play that game. Now is not the time for proof beyond a doubt; it's political warfare now, so the gloves are off!
Solid evidence, schmolid evidence! Whatever makes the repigs look like traitors is fair game because they've been doing it to us for decades.

[ZoomBubba]

56. You're not considering ...

... that when it's shown to be bunk, they're better at throwing it back on us. It's they're game and they're better at it ... when we do it, it back fires, especially with big things like this.

[triron]

12. That's one reason he postponed

the meeting/announcement on his business interests treatment.

[tritsofme]

11. Actually, plainly and simply it is not treason.

It will not change if you scream any louder.

[triron]

21. Section 3 of article III of the constitution

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted."

Seems to me coordination with Russians to get himself elected through espionage is giving aid to their (the Russians) cyber war actions. And he openly invited them to hack on national TV!

[tritsofme]

27. So are you arguing for treason or espionage? These words are not just insults.

They have an actual meaning, and no one has shown that we are anywhere near the standard of treason.

[LaydeeBug]

22. Actually, it is.

It will not change just because you are dismissive

[tritsofme]

24. If fairy tales help you sleep better at night...

Who am I to interrupt with reality?

[LaydeeBug]

26. No fairy tale. But I appreicate your attempt to marginalize a bloodless coup. Please pretend some

more.

[tritsofme]

30. I choose to live in a reality based community.

Where we fight and oppose Trump in real life, instead of wasting time writing fantasy fiction, and fever dreams about the electoral college and treason charges.

[LaydeeBug]

32. Here you are in cyber space talking about being in a reality based community. LOL

The irony is not lost.

Good luck to you.

[el_bryanto]

15. Do you favor the imposition of the Death Penalty for those guilty of treason?

That is the traditional punishment for those convicted of treason, I believe.

Bryant

[LaydeeBug]

17. nice try. no dice. nt

[el_bryanto]

18. It's a simple question - - all you have to do is say yes and no. nt

[LaydeeBug]

19. Actually, that is NOT "all I have to do". Again. Nice try. No dice. Still treason

and it's not the ONLY remedy, and you damn well know it.

But that won't stop you from your TRY, now will it?

[el_bryanto]

23. OK - well - sorry to have offended you by asking the obvious question nt

[LaydeeBug]

25. It's not an abvious question...it's a bunny trail one. You're welcome. nt

[dionysus]

62. Rather than admit any flaws in our losing candidate, people are flinging around accusations of

Crimes that carry the death penalty. Am i the only one who finds this both sad and creepy?

[el_bryanto]

63. That's a leap. First of all I supported Sanders and was never enthusiastic about

Hillary (although she would obvoously be better than Trump). Secondly I'm not comfortable with throwing around accusations of Treason precisely because it wasn't that long ago that Bush supporters were calling on us to be locked up or executed for failing to support President Bush.

Bryant

[dionysus]

64. You may have misunderstood, i am agreeing with you...

That wasn't directed at you...

[red dog 1]

20. K&R

[onenote]

28. The treason claim is a slippery slope.

Leaving aside the fairly convincing arguments that the treason clause of the Constitution wouldn't cover whatever involvement various people may have had in the Russian hacking, there are other factors to consider.

Russian isn't the only state actor engaging in cyber attacks on the US and its citizens.
China and Iran, to name two, have been identified as engaging in cyber attacks.
Are we at "war" with them? Is anything anyone does that gives "aid and comfort" to those countries a traitor? Does the aid and comfort have to be related to the cyber attacks or is it treason to do anything that helps a country that is engaging in acts of war against the US and its citizens?

And how does this fit into notions of trying to improve relations with countries that are bad actors? There undoubtedly are people who would claim that by entering into an agreement with Iran, the administration and those that worked on that agreement were being "traitors". I think that's a ridiculous assertion but it highlights the slippery slope. Was it treason for Obama to open up relations with Cuba? Was it treason for Nixon to enter into agreements with China? What about the situations when members of Congress or even private citizens engage in outreach to countries that are considered bad actors and "enemies" of the US? The McCarthy era was rife with accusations of treason being leveled at private citizens simply because they didn't share the nation's paranoia about Russia and communism and because they might have engaged in behavior capable of being construed as giving "aid and comfort" to the Soviet Union.

My objection to the loose use of the treason clause of the Constitution doesn't mean that I don't think that the Russian interference in the election isn't an incredibly serious matter that needs to be fully investigated and that appropriate charges (against domestic actors) and sanctions (against foreign actors) have to be considered to the extent warranted by the findings of that investigation.

[LaydeeBug]

31. The appropriate charges against domestic actors is TREASON

for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. That simple

[onenote]

33. So you would agree that Jane Fonda was guilty of treason?

And that the Americans that made nice with Russia during the Cold War were traitors?

[LaydeeBug]

36. Conflate much? nt

[onenote]

38. I'm not the one that said:"The appropriate charges against domestic actors is TREASON

for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. That simple"

If its that simple, how do you not believe that Jane Fonda (a domestic actor) wasn't a traitor? Or that the Americans that went to Moscow during the Cold War and cozied up with the Commies weren't traitors. Lots of people, citing the same "simple" understanding of the law of treason believed that to be the case.

Maybe its not as simple as you suggest.

[LaydeeBug]

39. Again, you conflate an anti-war protest/er with enabling a bloodless coup. Pretend. nt

[onenote]

40. What constitutes aid and comfort in your eyes?

That's the standard. How do you define it so that it doesn't cover, for example, the draft counselors that I consulted with when I was trying to avoid the draft during the Vietnam War and who provided me information that would have facilitated my committing certain illegal acts to avoid the draft. Even if their actions were a form of protest, wouldn't my refusing to serve be "aiding" the enemy?

[LaydeeBug]

45. what's yours?

nt

[onenote]

49. Nice attempt at deflection, but if you can't defend your position

its not my job to help you out.

[LaydeeBug]

54. and not mine to *submit* to you. Good luck. nt

[mythology]

50. You aren't going to get an intellectually honest response to these questions

The poster lacks a logical and consistent reading because they are so convinced they are right that they can't step back and realize how foolish the claims are.

[LaydeeBug]

55. LOL!!! Coming from a handle named mythology, oh, the irony is not lost.

Suuuuure my claims are foolish...and they've been panning out true as everything unfolds.

But you keep up your pretense of "intellectual honesty". I will call these motherfuckers out for treason.

Good luck!

[triron]

34. No law background at all

but cooperating with Russian intelligence (and inviting them to use espionage against the United States) in order to get oneself elected POTUS, through interfering with a US election (and possible election fraud) seems like a very serious offense to me, even if it can't satisfy the legal criteria of "treason" per se.

[onenote]

35. I agree that it is incredibly serious (as I said in my post).

But trying to turn it into a treason case would not be the best way to prosecute someone for those actions. The law on treason is so narrow you'd be risking a loss in a case that would likely be winnable brought under a different legal theory.

[HoneyBadger]

37. Who didn't know about it?

It was in the press, and at the very least, the top people in our government and probably hundreds if not thousands of staffers in our 17 intelligence agencies knew. I imagine that this was in weekly status reports and intelligence briefings for months.

I do not think that they can convict treason for "knowing". Now "doing" i.e. hacking, that would be different.

[triron]

41. I think that is exactly what the poster is referring to ("doing")

as you say. Correct me if I'm wrong

[triron]

42. kick for visibility

[sarisataka]

44. If cyberwar is still an act of War

Should go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war on Russia?

[LaydeeBug]

47. They attacked us...cyber war is STILL war. nt

[sarisataka]

48. I'll assume that is

a yes

Now if you excuse me I have to dig a bomb shelter

[Jean-Jacques Roussea]

51. yes

We need to set up a cyber/information deterrence policy akin to the ones we have for nukes. We need to critically hit Russia with a retaliatory hack to show that THEY WILL face consequences if they try this shit all over the world now that they have proof theory on the U.S.

[triron]

52. I thought Biden said we would hit back (this time)

and they 'would know it'. So ?

[triron]

46. knr

[UCmeNdc]

53. True, it is the same thing as buying guns from russia with the intent to overthrow the US government

They just used computer code and propaganda instead of guns.

[triron]

57. knr again

[LaydeeBug]

58. shameless kick. nt

[speaktruthtopower]

59. There is no war..

unless war is declared. With that said, it could be a hostile act punishable by criminal and civil action.

[LaydeeBug]

60. Cyber war is still an act of war, and no, war does not have to be declared...

wtf is up with all the hair splitting?

[NobodyHere]

61. So what are we going to do to combat China?