i think the gop is fine with the focus on russian involvement in the election

[unblock]

because it misses the mark. foreign powers meddle in other countries' elections all the time. it's not cool, but it's certainly done.

that certainly doesn't excuse it, but russia doesn't answer to us.


what the real scandal is, i believe, is that republicans stole the election through a number of efforts, some technically legal, some legal until deemed unconstitutional perhaps, and some just plain illegal.

these include voter id laws, voter roll purges, selective restriction of voting hours or polling places, miscalibrated voting machines, and possibly hacking of vote totals.

never mind the other dirty tricks, such as comey's letter, and the ridiculously biased media.


i think they're happy the focus is on russian meddling and not on republican dirty tricks.

[guillaumeb]

1. And the US as well has been involved in elections.

The US interfered in Greece after the war,
deposed a President in Iran,
incited a coup in Chile,
tried to depose the Sandinistas,
constantly interfered in Cuban affairs.
Intervened in Haiti,
And numerous other incidents.

On this topic, I posted this recently:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512656515

[rzemanfl]

2. Twice you used forms of "meddle" which just serves to "normalize" an act of war.

Not that I disagree with your other points, but only one thing they did carries a potential death penalty.

[unblock]

3. which is that?

as much as soliciting foreign hacking of americans is heinous and treasonous (in the non-legal sense), the constitution is pretty specific as to what treason is and is meant to be applied, i believe, only in cases of actual arms being used.

there may be other laws that carry the death penalty that i'm not aware of, though.


point taken, though; in any event, i do have a penchant for understatement, and "meddling" certainly does understate what both the russians and the gop did.

[rzemanfl]

4. Iva Toguri (Tokyo Rose) was convicted of treason and later pardoned.

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I think the issue is more what an "enemy" is. Does it require a state of war?

The OED says an enemy is-"a hostile nation or its armed forces or citizens, especially in time of war" (emphasis mine)

[unblock]

7. Accepting slimy electoral help isn't good giving aid and comfort

In addition to the "enemy" problem, you'd have to show republicans gave something material to the russians that wasn't just a matter of policy or commerce.

Don't get me wrong, I think the republican committed several heinous crimes here, I just don't think formal treason is among them.

[rzemanfl]

8. I assume the goverment knows more than we do about what happened.

If he or his campaign staff conspired with Russia to make his election happen that's aid and comfort in my book. Doubt we will ever know. At least not before my 69 year old ass is long gone.

[janx]

5. WTF?

"what the real scandal is, i believe, is that republicans stole the election through a number of efforts, some technically legal, some legal until deemed unconstitutional perhaps, and some just plain illegal."

[unblock]

11. you disagree?

[red dog 1]

6. When was the last time a foreign power meddled in US elections?

The answer?

NEVER BEFORE!!!

[unblock]

9. oh, that's not remotely true.

i'll do some digging later. i remember learning about french and british meddling in elections leading up to the civil war, and i'm sure it's happened later as well.

the level of meddling and the methods change, but there's just too much foreign interest in the outcome for it not to happen routinely. the real question is which nations, and is it state-sponsored vs. private interests, and are they hacking the actual voting process or "merely" helping one candidate over another.

[unblock]

10. first google item under "foreign interference in us elections":

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/russia-dnc-hack-donald-trump-foreign-governments-hacking-vietnam-richard-nixon-214111

Foreign Governments Have Been Tampering With U.S. Elections for Decades

...

In fact, this is not the first time that a Republican nominee has benefited from foreign interference in an American presidential election. The year was 1968, the candidate was Richard Nixon and the country was South Vietnam.

...

[ucrdem]

12. Yep.

When Russia takes a serious interest it usually leaves corpses. It's not implausible that "Putin took an interest" in this election but what's the motive for throwing it? Trump might owe money to Russia but he also owes money to China. Also, Trump has spoken out consistently against the US-Iran treaty -- rare for Trump -- and Iran is a close Russian ally. So Russia is most likely a beard for the usual suspects.

[flamingdem]

13. Great point. Either which way Hillary won

We did not lose the election